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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:26:38 PM   
MagiksSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Oh, the injustice...

Who punishes the "dominant"? The consequences of his or her own actions, basically.



Yes, and don't you feel it should be that way for ALL adults? Or do you feel that subs are so dim that they dont get the consequences of their own actions and need further teaching?


Where did I ever infer submissives or slaves are dim-witted and incapable of self-reflection, or don't get the consequences of their own actions? Of course most do, but consenting to a relationship where one calls another Master or Mistress often does involve punishment or atonement in some form. A slave accepts punishment for the very reason that he or she does understand the consequences or his or her own actions—and the need of discipline for many complex reasons. This is not the psychological dynamic in all relationships, but in many it is. It's unfair, I know—one answers to another and the other doesn't. Such a terrible imbalance.



The way you say it... it, to me, sounds like you were infering that this is the punisher for the Dom... I read ferther into it and see it as this is the punisher for the Dom but since the Dom punishes the sub then the natural consequenses for their actions isnt seen as enough though it is seen as enough for the Dom. Get what Im getting at?

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:27:09 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

What on earth makes you think that submissives don't have to face their own reflections too, though?

Of course most do and I'm simply making sure they do when I whisper in their ear. "Do you know what you did wrong?" Right before I let them have it!

A good smack can help a person to focus ya know?

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:29:47 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

"Who punishes the dominant?"

IDK about anyone else, but I have this pesky little thing called a conscience...



And subs don't??


This is a "logic-wreck"... there was -never- any implication that individuals who yield authority do not have a conscience. However, those who choose to participate in relationships where punishment is part of the dynamic DO yield the "right of correction" to the individual to whom they yield authority.... so whether or not they have a conscience, they will still be required to answer to that authority.

That being said, for most individuals who HOLD the authority, they are the sole "disciplinarian" for themselves, and THAT is the point Kana was making when he answered the OP by declaring that -his own conscience- was the "disciplinary factor" for his mistakes.

Implying that stating such (which is accurate) is somehow a slam against submissive individuals and that it implies that he believes that submissive individuals don't have a conscience is a straw man argument and has no place in reasonable debate on the subject.

Calla


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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:31:02 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

A good smack can help a person to focus ya know?
That's fine-it's the 'she faces me and I face my mirror and those two things are the same' attitude that makes me uneasy, not the 'we both signed up for it and it works for us' attitude..

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:33:02 PM   
littlewonder


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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:35:17 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Status: offline 		I'm still trying to figure out who implied that submssives don't have the ability to define what they did wrong... The point is that in a Power Dynamic that find the majority of our relationships....... someone gave authority to someone else.

I would hope if they have an issue with punishment before they gave that authority to someone else..... it would have been determined how things work.

Punishment, for me, is saying it's over. It is the last resort I am willing to accept.

It should also be understood that some submissives do not have the control they would like to have.... this is part of the reason they get involved in a power dynamic and Punishment is part of their growth dynamic.

It works for some people.

I would think a Dominant that felt he needed to be punished for his mistakes would be conflict of interest.... at least the way I see it anyway.

QSM

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:37:02 PM   
MagiksSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

"Who punishes the dominant?"

IDK about anyone else, but I have this pesky little thing called a conscience...



And subs don't??


This is a "logic-wreck"... there was -never- any implication that individuals who yield authority do not have a conscience. However, those who choose to participate in relationships where punishment is part of the dynamic DO yield the "right of correction" to the individual to whom they yield authority.... so whether or not they have a conscience, they will still be required to answer to that authority.

That being said, for most individuals who HOLD the authority, they are the sole "disciplinarian" for themselves, and THAT is the point Kana was making when he answered the OP by declaring that -his own conscience- was the "disciplinary factor" for his mistakes.

Implying that stating such (which is accurate) is somehow a slam against submissive individuals and that it implies that he believes that submissive individuals don't have a conscience is a straw man argument and has no place in reasonable debate on the subject.

Calla



What I am getting at is, if having a conscience is good enough for the Dom, why isnt it for the sub, why does the sub have to be subjected to punishment other than that?

It's my own thing, I know people like it, I just dont find it necessery.

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:39:33 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Using fast reply......

I think this is one of those things that people in a power exchange dynamic either 'get' or they don't.

Boil it down to, some people WANT a relationship that involves some sort of punishment, and some do not. It's a fool that will argue one is right or wrong. Smarter to say, one is right or wrong for ME, and that is the type of relationship I have/want/need......or not.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/15/2010 2:40:02 PM >

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:39:56 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

A good smack can help a person to focus ya know?
That's fine-it's the 'she faces me and I face my mirror and those two things are the same' attitude that makes me uneasy, not the 'we both signed up for it and it works for us' attitude..

Lol..It won't be the first time someone felt "uneasy" about something I've said.

I'm being my usual facetious self because I think it's funny how we keep going over the same topics with the same people having the same thing to say and usually in the same manner.

It aint about being fair. Equal..50/50....Nothing in life is.

It's part of a power dynamic...maybe an extreme one in my house where I dole out what I see fit. The females I look for are adults and know what they're getting into.






_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:41:15 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

What I am getting at is, if having a conscience is good enough for the Dom, why isnt it for the sub, why does the sub have to be subjected to punishment other than that?



Because the sub chose that when they surrendered their authority to the other person. If that other person felt that their concious wasn't enough to stop the action that dislike then they would have to resort to a different tactic.

I do not have a punishment dynamic, because I don't need one. Telling her not to do that is enough, when she makes mistakes I know she learns from them

If she didn't I might use different mathods.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:43:54 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

What I am getting at is, if having a conscience is good enough for the Dom, why isnt it for the sub, why does the sub have to be subjected to punishment other than that?

It's my own thing, I know people like it, I just dont find it necessery.


The reason that it is good enough for the dominant individual and not for the submissive individual is because ... wait for it... that is the dynamic that they CHOSE to be in... Not an equal partnership where both sides have to answer to the other, and not an independent grouping where both sides do their own thing -- but an AUTHORITY DYNAMIC where one person holds the authority and the right of correction for breaches of established rules over the other person BY THEIR CHOICE. It isn't a question of whether or not the submissive individual's conscience is "good enough" to be able to figure out that xhe did wrong... within the context of the DYNAMIC in a dynamic where punishment is extant that there is the REQUIREMENT that the one holding authority also correct, discipline, punish, or otherwise control the submissive individual WHETHER OR NOT THAT SUBMISSIVE INDIVIDUAL COULD FIGURE OUT FOR HIRSELF WHAT XHE DID. That is part of what it MEANS to be in an Authority-based dynamic... that there is a CHOSEN imbalance in authority, including correction.

Hope this gives clarity.
Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:44:42 PM   
gypsygrl


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Status: offline 		"Do we really need four freaking threads on the front page of the General Discussion board to keep going over the same concept?"

Sometimes its worth re-visiting an old topic because people are at at a different place compared to the last time it was discussed, so the discussion is slightly different. Its kind of like the idea that "you can never step into the same stream twice." Or, how reading a book for the second or third time brings out something you hadn't noticed before. People will probably line up in roughly the same way as the other times, but the quality of the thought processes might become enriched through repetition.

So, no, we probably don't need four freaking threads on the front page to keep going over the same thing, but its not going to hurt anyone and it might help some.

And, I suspect that punishment keeps coming up because its one of those things that its hard not to have an opinion on if you have an interest in D/s or bdsm. Its a core issue.



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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:45:45 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It aint about being fair. Equal..50/50....Nothing in life is.
This.

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 2:48:20 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

And, I suspect that punishment keeps coming up because its one of those things that its hard not to have an opinion on if you have an interest in D/s or bdsm. Its a core issue.
I disagree. I have an opinion on punishment in *my* relationships, which is that I don't want it. I have no opinion on its place in any relationship other than mine.

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 3:00:40 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

"Do we really need four freaking threads on the front page of the General Discussion board to keep going over the same concept?"

Sometimes its worth re-visiting an old topic because people are at at a different place compared to the last time it was discussed, so the discussion is slightly different. Its kind of like the idea that "you can never step into the same stream twice." Or, how reading a book for the second or third time brings out something you hadn't noticed before. People will probably line up in roughly the same way as the other times, but the quality of the thought processes might become enriched through repetition.

So, no, we probably don't need four freaking threads on the front page to keep going over the same thing, but its not going to hurt anyone and it might help some.

And, I suspect that punishment keeps coming up because its one of those things that its hard not to have an opinion on if you have an interest in D/s or bdsm. Its a core issue.



But, we're not revisiting.  We're here giving the same answers that we did on the thread that was created two hours before this one and another created an hour before that.  No matter how the topic is twisted to look at a different angle, it's still the same topic.  All people are doing is repeating themselves in four different places.  If anything, it makes the threads more difficult to follow because people are jumping back and forth between where the same topic is being discussed.  How many times do they have to ask us to do this:

Duplicate and Repeat posts - Please do not make posts bringing peoples attention to another post in the same or a different area. If you have something to contribute to the topic then please post to the original topic. Please do not start a duplicate or similar thread if there is an active thread on the subject already or was fairly recently.


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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 3:43:15 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Where did I ever infer submissives or slaves are dim-witted and incapable of self-reflection, or don't get the consequences of their own actions? Of course most do, but consenting to a relationship where one calls another Master or Mistress often does involve punishment or atonement in some form. A slave accepts punishment for the very reason that he or she does understand the consequences or his or her own actions—and the need of discipline for many complex reasons. This is not the psychological dynamic in all relationships, but in many it is. It's unfair, I know—one answers to another and the other doesn't. Such a terrible imbalance.


The way you say it... it, to me, sounds like you were infering that this is the punisher for the Dom... I read ferther into it and see it as this is the punisher for the Dom but since the Dom punishes the sub then the natural consequenses for their actions isnt seen as enough though it is seen as enough for the Dom. Get what Im getting at?

Oh yes, I do. I suppose what I'm saying, however, is that your observations about the inequality of the dynamic aren't anything new or to be up in arms about...the Master needn't answer to the slave—and yes, that's unfair—but there isn't a need for fairness and equality in an M/s relationship, and (hopefully) prospective slaves understand this...unless they are very, very confused. Among other things, part of the magic involved in M/s, (my experience) is harnessing and augmenting that self consequence in the slave through overt dominance and submission; the imbalance is purposeful. If you can't accept the fact that your Master or Mistress only answers to themselves, where you all the while answer to them, I would respectfully suggest a new "dating" strategy!


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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 4:00:41 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

What I am getting at is, if having a conscience is good enough for the Dom, why isnt it for the sub, why does the sub have to be subjected to punishment other than that?


MagicksSlave,

Actually I understand what you're saying and it isn't hard to grasp at all in my opinion. But there are different motivations for the kneel and they're rarely identical. I'll use myself as an example. I'm obedient driven and self-policing. An individual that needed to punish and force on a continual basis as a demonstration of authority would be ill suited for me. Why? I want to obey, which means most of the time that's what I'll elect to do. Plus enslavement is the ideal as is adhering to his will. That doesn't discount the fixation some have with wielding the iron fist which works well for those that want that from their partner. I don't need a 2x4 across the head to know I've messed up. But some people respond well to that kind of dynamic.

In my case it was the reverse and I was much harder on myself than my partner could ever dream of being. I knew every button and possible negative to exploit. I've spent a lifetime with myself and I know me better than he does. It is what it is. That was one reason why my previous owners didn't go down that road with me very often. It resulted in a very bad head space for me where the aftermath was often far greater than the infraction. Does that mean I'll never be corrected? Not unless you muzzle me and sear it on. But I also avoid pairings with gentlemen that need to apply a firm hand as a continual reminder of their dominance. It isn't a routine necessity to keep me in line. I have this zany need to do what he says just because. Without the bells, whistles, and face slapping applied.

~porcelaine


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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 4:11:12 PM   
NymphetamineGirl


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/29/2009
Status: offline 		When he screws up, I freeze up.  He doesn't get what he wants that way and so the reward system works all by itself.

Often, he has already forgiven me, but I need a punishment to help me forgive myself, let go, move on.  He does not do this because he likes to, but to help me get past it.  This is never something I am told to subject to, rather it is consentual, and I am grateful for it.  This is because I have the character defect of beating myself up, not because of my position as a sub.

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 4:20:35 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
It's unfair, I know—one answers to another and the other doesn't. Such a terrible imbalance.


Nods. It is truly an awful imbalance. And also unjust, not to mention unnatural. It's just...plain...wrong.

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RE: Who punishes the dominant? - 7/15/2010 4:29:36 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NymphetamineGirl

When he screws up, I freeze up.  He doesn't get what he wants that way and so the reward system works all by itself.



Oh my.

You know, this is a very interesting thread! :)

I'm a little shell shocked by what you just said, because I know how two dominant friends of mine would react if a submissive did that to them. Two very different men with two very different approaches, but one result: the formerly frozen sub would be close to catatonic at the end of each treatment.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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