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RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 6:36:46 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Lally and porcelaine

porcelaine is single at this time... i take it both of you had long(ish) relationship(s) before...


Yes on both accounts. Although I didn't say it on this thread my status is intentional. This is where I want to be right now. I'm uncertain about the reference to being floaty. I'm very matter of fact when it comes to what I want.

quote:

The point i am trying to make is that inevitably you will come to a point in your relationship that it might aswell be over... big nasty problems or a growing appart... a thinking 'is this it?' midlife crisis... a realisation that somebody is cheating, the death of a child, physical changes... there are immensely hurtful episodes that 'test' people and so their relationships.


I agree and we each have some idea of the things that might send us out the door. Whether that occurs is hard to predict. But no situation is perfect or will ever be that. You'll always have problems to overcome.

quote:

It is my opinion that many people split up over minor stuff... which of course seems massive to them at the time... it is never the less possible to overcome many of these big issues... i think it is a pity not more relationships succeed; that not more people manage to pull through the shit, but rather they abandon eachother... only to wade through a new pile of shit some years down the road... because eventhough you might learn from your mistakes, you can never account for all that might occur... but the one thing that is a given is that the new relationship will be tested aswell. As i said there are cases that are beyond salvation, however i think the majority could be worked out if only the people involved would be less selfish and more prepared to 'work' at it even after they think they have tried everything.


I can't speak for other people because I don't know their situation or the lives they've led prior to the relationship's demise. I do know I'm not alone and there are a lot of women like myself. I understand my choices. And there is a lot I won't take on. Not because I believe I'm better, but I know I don't want to deal with it. On the exchange side I know I'm looking for the needle and that's okay. It's a needle I could live with. But that isn't the only option and I'm looking at things from a different perspective now.

I am not a serial dater. Nor the sort that likes being tied down. I will settle my heels for the right person. But I love my freedom and the spoils that come with it. I encounter a lot of women like myself. Single, successful, and happy. I really want the latter one to stay. But I don't define that by a man. He's a slice of my pie not the whole entire thing. I think it is important to work out your problems. But I also feel a lot of people stay in really crappy situations and regret that later on. I'm not one of them. And I won't be either. Life is too short to be miserable.

Make no mistake I hear you. But my mentality is very different on the subject of partnership. I will never love him as much as I love myself. He will never matter more than my well being and internal happiness does. He is important. He can be a beautiful person with a mind and heart. But those feelings will never lead to my undoing. And because I built this I cherish it immensely. There is no greater love in my opinion.

I know the door is there. We can assign all the words and acronyms. But I know I can and will leave if it threatens to damage me. And that's the principal I live by. One that's kept me safe, free from abuse, and happy.

quote:

porcelaine, what do you mean by this?

"He must emulate the character he wishes for me to mimic"
He must be better at the character that he wishes you to imitate?

i am unclear as to how this is beneficial in a relationship


That is a reference about the internalization of his will. For some, it is a do as I say not as I do dynamic. To suggest that the will I'm emulating isn't one you represent, but the ;you' that you are not is unacceptable. I cannot enslave myself to his ideal self. Nor do I dismiss or ignore the fallacy or inconsistencies of that line of thinking. If you recognize you are not your better self in an area that you wish for me to follow and ingest work towards it. I have a real commitment to self betterment and that means addressing deficiencies and improving them. I recognize that is not a priority for everyone. But I can't serve someone with the mentality mentioned. It would bother me.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 8:28:59 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

i think you both are more sort of floaty and romantic in your thoughts than i am...


I don't see floaty and romantic at all.  What porcelaine is saying is something I currently live.  It is practical.  It is knowing myself and, because of past experiences, knowing what is good for me and what is not...knowing what I can live through and where the line is for me. 

I survived a 20 year marriage which was hell, most of the time.  I spent $10,000 in marriage counseling to try to fix it and overcome the emotional injustices that were done.  I spent the next several years recovering from things that occurred, and, at times, I still need work in those areas.  I know I will not allow those occurrences to exist in my world again - not for the long term, anyway.  I also survived a 4 year enslavement to a man who did not regard my emotional well being.  I am still dealing with issues that have stemmed from that.  I am currently in a very loving and caring relationship, going on about a year and half now.  And I can tell you unequivocally, if he were to consistently disregard my emotional well being, I would walk away.  I love myself too much.  But I was very careful in entering this relationship, and came to know the man well enough to have faith he would not do that.  Because I became self aware and self loving, I was careful to choose what would be good for me.  Should he cease to be good for me, it is time to re-evaluate.

This is not floaty or romantic.  It is me, taking care of me.  I will not put myself in a place of harm again.  Nor does he want me to, actually.

quote:


The point i am trying to make is that inevitably you will come to a point in your relationship that it might aswell be over... big nasty problems or a growing appart... a thinking 'is this it?' midlife crisis... a realisation that somebody is cheating, the death of a child, physical changes... there are immensely hurtful episodes that 'test' people and so their relationships. It is my opinion that many people split up over minor stuff... which of course seems massive to them at the time... it is never the less possible to overcome many of these big issues... i think it is a pity not more relationships succeed; that not more people manage to pull through the shit, but rather they abandon eachother... only to wade through a new pile of shit some years down the road... because eventhough you might learn from your mistakes, you can never account for all that might occur... but the one thing that is a given is that the new relationship will be tested aswell.


At what point is the relationship no longer considered new?  Mine has not been tested as of yet.  It may be, down the line.  But we have spent the last year and a half developing a strong and sturdy enough foundation to where we can always return, should things go awry.  We move at a snails pace, very carefully, treating each other and this relationship with care.

I for one, will not eat a diet of shit again.  If I know there is genuine concern for me and if I know we are both doing what we can to get through what life throws at us, then of course I do my part to work things out.  Should he let go of the reins and leave me to pick up the pieces myself, that's a different story.  After awhile I'd begin to think, "If I'm going to pick up my own pieces, what do I need a leader for?"

quote:


As i said there are cases that are beyond salvation, however i think the majority could be worked out if only the people involved would be less selfish and more prepared to 'work' at it even after they think they have tried everything.



I don't think it is up to anyone here to determine what is a selfish act in someone else's relationship.  No one knows the story behind the closed door.  What appears to be workable for one person may be the end-all for someone else, given their own history.  It's really easy to say "Oh they gave up too easily" but unless you (generically) have spent significant time getting to intimately know those within that relationship, it is merely a guessing game.  And I'd rather not do that.  What one person can survive might be another's breaking point.  It would be speculative and even arrogant of me to make that arm-chair judgment call.




_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 10:59:42 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine


Make no mistake I hear you. But my mentality is very different on the subject of partnership. I will never love him as much as I love myself. He will never matter more than my well being and internal happiness does. He is important. He can be a beautiful person with a mind and heart. But those feelings will never lead to my undoing. And because I built this I cherish it immensely. There is no greater love in my opinion.



Thanks for your explanation and general reply, i sort of understand what you mean about the mimicing stuff... "do as I say not as I do" might not always go down nicely indeed, though i am pleased to better myself when i can but i have no interest in mimicing other than pretending to be a schoolgirl or something... also it is not so important for me to have a man that is 'living' something before he might 'order' me to do something sometimes "do as I say even if I don't do it myself, but I say it 'cos I know you need to hear it" is at times very much called for in my case.

About loving yourself: obviously it is important everybody does enough of that.
(NuevaVida: i never advocate for people to say in abusive relationships, and some situations are not solvable, and indeed only the people involved know how long they should stay or not)
For me there is a greater love though... besides the love for a child, it is indeed loving  another... for me love for myself just is... but my love for my Husband is what thrills me, sharing everything with another makes my life worth living.

i do not agree with people staying in crap relationships and pretending all is fine... but often the relationship could be made better
there are equally a lot of people alone and feeling rather crappy because they would rather be with a partner... i think it is often more difficult for a person to make that situation better.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 3:41:29 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

how much self governing do subs do and how much self governing do Dominants expect from their sub/slave.

...i mean how much do we as subs self govern within the context of our relationships.

are we passive or active in our submission.



You're getting some interesting responses to this--good thread! I like your choice of an ethical issue, it brings out lots of points of view. My response is going to be relatively boring: If by self-governing you mean making large or even small decisions, for me it just depends on what the dominant wants me to do. I like extremes of power, as I believe I might have mentioned here once or twice before, and to me, an ideal situation is where I adjust my submissive attitudes and behaviors to match what the dominant wants or likes best, no matter what my personal preferences might be.

But even if you are in a an extremely controlled situation and are no given the leeway to make a lot of decisions, when you are controlled, given orders, and follow rules laid down for you, you have to self-govern, don't you? If you don't, how will your duties get done?

I see three primary responses to an order: (1) You tell yourself to get up, wash the dishes, then exercise after dinner (consciously self-governing) (2.) You have to obey the order so often that it becomes a habit (initially self-governing, less so as time progresses but even ingrained habits have to be watched over as straying from routine will sometimes derail them) (3) You choose not to do what you're told or not to do it in a timely manner or you forget to do it and then face the consequences. Direct disobedience and also often tardiness are conscious decisions you have made. So, self-governing. While forgetting is often not intentional or indicative of conscious disobedience, neglecting to work on your inattention or an unwillingness to make your dominant's commands a high enough priority that they are not forgotten, is also a self-governing decision--even if you choose to believe that you are helpless and nothing can be done about the matter.

Choosing to believe that one is helpless and cannot obey due to special circumstances, by the way, is a classic way that submissives disobey without appearing to disobey. It's passive-aggressively subtle. Therefore, even if you're given a ridiculous impossible order, one you can't possibly hope of successfully completing, I believe it's far better to trust your dominant knows what they are doing and attempt to perform it anyway rather than state the obvious: "it's impossible". I'm talking about the context of an established relationship, of course, not the exploratory, "I'm not sure of him/her" phase. If you're not sure enough about this dominant to hand the reins over to them, you should not obey an order that may put you into some danger--like try to lift the back of a car--without seriously questioning them about the consequences for you.

For all of these reasons, I don't think it's possible to be entirely passive in day-to-day submission without also being rankly disobedient. Obedience, doing what your told, requires activity, and, in many situations, conscious choices. I mean, what if your order is: "Go do the dishes and do not speak to me until you are done" and you go to the sink and there's a spider and you're terrified of spiders. Suddenly you are faced with a twist to an otherwise simple "no brainer" situation that requires some decision-making and self-governing. What you do in this case, of course, depends on the circumstances. If you are controlled heavily and master is smart, he's already foreseen such situations and instilled in you some Laws of Subotics. My former owner did this. A rule at the top or close to the top was "Do not do anything, even obey an order from me, that will seriously harm or endanger you." In the dishes situation, this would mean that if I thought there was even the faintest chance that this spider was a brown recluse or some other highly dangerous species, I would need to break his immediate order and talk to him about the situation (unless I knew how to handle dangerous spiders and was certain I could overcome my phobia panic enough to handle the current spider).

Now, if you are talking about a few hours worth of time, a scene, total passivity might in some circumstances be appropriate. But even then, if you were so passive in the scene that you didn't display any response to anything that happened to you, you'd probably be viewed as being as interesting as a jellyfish. One exception: a naturally highly responsive submissive is told not to respond at all or s/he will be punished more. That's a fun game.--and, while it looks passive, it actually involves considerable self-governing.

"do we as subs think ahead or do we sit the ride and let it take us."

I am not sure what you mean by riding a mental horse. Do you mean never wondering about the future or planning for it? Or do you mean never having a thought to do some specific act at a specific time? I think that unless you have certain brain injuries, the first is a just matter of degree, and I don't know if the second is possible to do. My cat, who seems to live entirely in the present and has very little capacity for planning for the future, still does this to a small degree. In her daily life she encounters patterns of behavior (for example, I get out of bed in the morning and turn on the lights) that remind her of the things she wants ("When my Human does this, it means I get to chase the laser light!") and she will remind me quite stridently that this is what happens next, so _I_ do not forget. :p So if she's capable of and willing to do this much planning and action to achieve a future situation she anticipates in her head, why would humans, unless their brains are damaged, be capable of less?

If you have a tendency to overplan, others, including your dominant, may find its expression egregious and you may someday be given an order NOT to think ahead. While I think it's impossible to achieve such an order perfectly (you'd need a panic switch to shut off your brain at certain times), you can certainly tone it down quite a bit by attempting to obey this instruction. This is the sort of change that responds well to hypnotic suggestion, if you are motivated and capable, or to operant conditioning (no motivation or special skills needed here!), so consider yourself lucky if your master offers to give you this sort of assistance with a medium-large personality change.

"is submission ALL about handing everything over, even our ability to assimilate right and wrong...

It's interesting that you put the latter phrase after the word "even." My take on this is that it is strictly role-dependent. If you are in a submissive role in the relationship, how much (control) you hand over is dependent upon what you and your dominant work out between yourselves about this. It could be a very great deal, everything or almost everything, or it could be not much. If your role, or rather, future role is that of a slave in the relationship, then one of the very first things you should be considering, if you take this role seriously, is "Could I entirely give up my personal moral schema in order to obey this particular person?" You need to imagine a few horrible possible outcomes in connection with this. And then, if your answer to this question is not a resounding "YES, for him or her I would do anything ordered of me," then I don't think you have any business becoming that person's slave as your intentions do not have the necessary sincerity or absoluteness. You could become this person's submissive were they agreeable to this, a submissive who is highly controlled, almost completely controlled except that you are allowed to keep you personal ethics or morals, but you wouldn't, at least in my view, be a slave. A slave doesn't have that luxury, unless the master chooses to grant it as a favor. Most dominants I've known personally who own slaves do not grant this right. First, it's actually a very huge amount of control to give up, and so not something that would appeal to a person who wants a slave rather than a submissive. Second, I don't know if these dominants are typical, but those I knew who owned slaves invariably felt that their moral or ethical compass was a far better guide for the slave than the slave's own. If you are prospective slave, consider how that statement feels to you. If it causes umbrage, outrage, horror, or annoyance then may I most politely suggest that perhaps you should be considering a different type of occupation?

To sum up, slavery is all about this: handing everything over particularly our ability to choose right and wrong (I don't think people can stop assimilating. But they can stop acting on it.). Submission, not necessarily.

"do we totally rely on our Dominants to remind us of our submission."

I would question whether somebody were capable of enjoying or wanting submission if it had to be something they needed to be reminded of by someone else. "Good morning, dear! Now don't forget, you are a submissive today, and therefore you need to perform the commands I have given you!" "Thank you for the reminder, Sir! I had a bad dream last night and I'm certain I would have forgotten who I was if you hadn't reminded me!" :D To be serious, I do not think this situation--relying on a dominant to remind us of our submission--is possible beyond a short period of time--it strikes me as an extremely unstablizing factor in the dom/sub aspect of the relationship. Frequently, people get into these sorts of relationships, particularly if it is their first, romanticizing the good aspects but without giving much thought to the difficult aspects. It's quite possible, therefore, to find a completely non-submissive person acting the role of a submissive in a relationship. But they don't tend to stay in such relationships, however much they like or respect their dominants. The day-to-day realities of the role grates on them. I think such a person might need to be reminded in this way but if that were the case, the situation would become so unsatisfactory to one or both parties that it wouldn't last.

" is it the physical more than the mental that holds our attention and if the Dominant should fail momentarily to respond to petulance or pushing do we really need to be reminded that we are just as culpable and capable of bringing ourselves back to that place they expect us to be."

There's no right or wrong answer to this question. It depends a lot on what the initial premises of the relationship were, how clearly the roles and responsibilities were spelled out, and what the two individuals in it are actually capable of. It's almost a moralistic question: *should* we rein ourselves in? Sure, if we are capable of doing so, but not all submissives come fresh out of the box able to do this (submission is hard and at first runs contrary to everything we've thought and done up to that point). Before taking on a submissive, this is something a dominant should assess: how well can her personality self-moderate and if she has very little ability at present to do this, am I willing to take up the slack, do the hard work of teaching her another way to respond? I've seen a lot of dom/sub relationships break up because this issue wasn't considered carefully before the two parties established a relationship.


_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 6:29:07 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

(NuevaVida: i never advocate for people to say in abusive relationships, and some situations are not solvable, and indeed only the people involved know how long they should stay or not)


I fully agree with this - especially the part I bolded.  However, it is a bit counter to this:

quote:


but often the relationship could be made better



If only the people involved know how long they should remain, none of us can decide for them that it could be made better.  At least I would never presume so.  We all have our thresholds, and our reasons for them.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/29/2010 7:08:47 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Thanks for your explanation and general reply, i sort of understand what you mean about the mimicing stuff... "do as I say not as I do" might not always go down nicely indeed, though i am pleased to better myself when i can but i have no interest in mimicing other than pretending to be a schoolgirl or something... also it is not so important for me to have a man that is 'living' something before he might 'order' me to do something sometimes "do as I say even if I don't do it myself, but I say it 'cos I know you need to hear it" is at times very much called for in my case.


You're welcome.

quote:

there are equally a lot of people alone and feeling rather crappy because they would rather be with a partner... i think it is often more difficult for a person to make that situation better.


A lot of those people aren't any happier when they're partnered. No one can fill your void or fix what's broken inside of you. That places a lot of expectations on the other person. And while some people have a negative mindset about being alone, I thank my luck stars I'm not one of them.

quote:

About loving yourself: obviously it is important everybody does enough of that.
(NuevaVida: i never advocate for people to say in abusive relationships, and some situations are not solvable, and indeed only the people involved know how long they should stay or not)
For me there is a greater love though... besides the love for a child, it is indeed loving  another... for me love for myself just is... but my love for my Husband is what thrills me, sharing everything with another makes my life worth living.


I love my daughter and she is by far the best thing I have ever done. She is my legacy and I'm immensely proud of the woman she's become. I gave her everything I had and more. However, she isn't my life. She can never be the center of my world because there will come a time when she must walk alone. And we celebrate those milestones as the day draws nearer. I was never taught to build my world around anyone, but place myself in the center and have wonderful branches that flow back to the source called me.

She isn't my life nor is my partner. They're blessings I have the pleasure of experiencing in this lifetime. But I live my days for me. Because I matter. It feels pretty darned good to know you're worth it. I don't need a man to tell me this or to validate it either. I know it and reaffirm that reality each day.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 2:25:31 AM   
ranja


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


If only the people involved know how long they should remain, none of us can decide for them that it could be made better.  At least I would never presume so.  We all have our thresholds, and our reasons for them.


i never said that any and everybody should stay with their very first partner,
when people split up they split up, i do not make decisions for other people to stay or leave, it is up to every individual
i usually do not speak my mind about situations that are brought to my attention either as more often than not people have no interest in other peoples opinion anyway, usually all they want is sympathy
That does not mean that i can not have my own opinions about the splitting-up 'trend' in general, and my opinion is that i think that many people split up over something that could have been worked out, and for some people it would be better to work it out instead of leaving, especially in established relationships... i think if a couple survives the 6 month mark, generally the first big hurdle is at about 3 or 4 years.
It is up to everybody individually to make their own decisions and live with the consequences, this is why it is very good to love yourself so you do right by your own person... but you have to take care not to love yourself so much that you have no capacity left to love another.

Porcelaine: my life is built on my Husband so to speak, He is most definitely my rock and i would be lost without Him... However, if He would disappear i would surely survive, i know i am strong enough to take care of myself...
When i considered leaving Him, because i hated Him because He was a dork for a long time, i still knew i would be leaving a good man... i knew i would be leaving because i was bored with Him; with trying to get the passion back... i couldn't feel our love anymore at all... i felt i was sat in a bloody big black hole that i had dug for myself and i thought it was mainly His fault, and He would not talk... 
i suspect He was waiting for me to leave aswell, He must have been as sick of me as i was of Him... it would have been a relief i suppose... luckily we were both to stubborn or too polite to actually dump the other... and luckily i had some help to grab control of the situation, ate my pride and made a few changes.
Sometimes there are ways to turn things around even when you think all is lost.
People have to be very sure they do the very best they can because that is how you grow and harvest your prizes

Porcelaine, i think looking for a needle as you put it might equate to looking for mister Right... you have to be careful about that... Mr Right does not exist, many 'faults' do not show up at first. Of course you are fine as you are and you are happy to have such high standards, so that is fortunate, i hope you find what you are looking for.


(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 4:27:09 AM   
Violentseternal


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good topic, and it helps getting the mind going this early! LOL
i think its nice for my Owner to remind me from time to time of my submission, but overall, in knowing what i am..i feel its the submissives duty to make sure she doesnt forget it if not reminded..any relationship has to have some kind of balance, its just in a different way in a D/s relationship..if ones a submissive that should be within themselves to always be (of course in the outside world there has to be a certain dominance in personality in order for society not to walk all over you) but in a loving trusting bond..i believe both should have a say, but the Dominant should make the final decision..
apologies if this reply geared off topic or i didnt read the OP right lol..


_____________________________

Feed my will to feel this moment....

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 6:52:14 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Porcelaine: my life is built on my Husband so to speak, He is most definitely my rock and i would be lost without Him... However, if He would disappear i would surely survive, i know i am strong enough to take care of myself...


I think that's wonderful you have a relationship that makes you happy. But I'm not married nor am I looking for a spouse. I like the lifestyle that I have. Yes, I'm single and I live very comfortably and do as I please when I want to. And oddly enough that makes me happy.

quote:

Sometimes there are ways to turn things around even when you think all is lost.
People have to be very sure they do the very best they can because that is how you grow and harvest your prizes


And I'm glad you did that and it sounds like you're happy. But I have no regrets. Those situations had to come to a close and I wouldn't do anything differently.

quote:

Porcelaine, i think looking for a needle as you put it might equate to looking for mister Right... you have to be careful about that... Mr Right does not exist, many 'faults' do not show up at first. Of course you are fine as you are and you are happy to have such high standards, so that is fortunate, i hope you find what you are looking for.


Careful? I think it's pretty evident in the things I write that I have a keen idea of who I am and what works best for me. And if that means he's mister right (as you say) and that's what I want so be it. Why must my life mimic someone else's? I'm not waiting for anything. I just don't build my world on or around a man. I'm sure that seems strange but it seems even crazier (in my opinion) to do that. But some people find happiness living that way and that's cool. But I cannot do the same. Sorry. I'll take the man that's best for me. The one that complements me. Nothing short of that will do.

And thank you for the well wishes. I echo the same for you and yours.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 7:01:24 AM   
TwistedHeart74


Posts: 722
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		do we as subs think ahead or do we sit the ride and let it take us.

That would depend on the submissive. There are times I've been passive, and other times I've tried to be 3 steps ahead like a game of chess.


is submission ALL about handing everything over, even our ability to assimilate right and wrong or do we totally rely on our Dominants to remind us of our submission.

It's good to be reminded. Life gets in the way at times, you slip, he slips. When you're good together, you both will check yourselves and go "We need to get back on track."

is it the physical more than the mental that holds our attention and if the Dominant should fail momentarily to respond to petulance or pushing do we really need to be reminded that we are just as culpable and capable of bringing ourselves back to that place they expect us to be.

Again, depends on the submissive. I've had a dominant who turned my head into his playground. Another that turned my body into his temple. Neither responded well to petulance or pushing, in fact both got me in serious trouble. Neither expected me to do it on my own, and on the flip side of that they were both more than willing to do what was necessary to assist me in keeping the proper mindset. When I was alone, I maintained that mindset.

As for the debate above, I'll toss in my two cents.
Is there a trend for the ending of relationships? Sure. Look at the divorce rate. 75%. Is it due to selfishness? In some cases yes. It seems that it's much easier to lob them away, rather than work them out. Don't like your nose? Get a new one. Don't like your house? Buy a new one. Don't like your mate? Get another. But then again, when there are issues that go beyond "He's a lazy fuck and I'm just tired" seperation is going to happen. People grow apart, their lives take different turns and twists. That's what happened to me and my ex. I grew, he regressed. I stayed for 3 years, working working working on our relationship. Then one day it hit me, What was the point? It takes TWO to make this work and he wasn't trying. So, thus ended the marriage.
I wouldn't ever again stay in a situation where I was miserable. That path leads to self destruction. It tears you apart inside, mentally and emotionally. And quite frankly, no man I've met is worth that price. If my happiness isn't as important as his, I view the relationship as unhealthy for me. No man will ever be my rock, I stand quite well on my own. Maybe I'm just cynical, but if I've learned anything it's that I have to depend on myself more than anyone else. I'm single and loving it at this point in my life

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(in reply to Violentseternal)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 8:25:15 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

i never said that any and everybody should stay with their very first partner,


I know you didn't say that.  Nor was anything mentioned of a "very first partner" so I'm not understanding that reference. 

quote:



That does not mean that i can not have my own opinions about the splitting-up 'trend' in general, and my opinion is that i think that many people split up over something that could have been worked out, and for some people it would be better to work it out instead of leaving, especially in established relationships... i think if a couple survives the 6 month mark, generally the first big hurdle is at about 3 or 4 years.


I guess this is where I got a little confused by your words.  You said earlier that no one but those in the relationship really know when it's best to leave, followed by you have your own opinions on when they should work things out.  Those two thoughts conflict, in my mind.  It's not my intention to dispute your opinion, by any means.  Only to say that your words seemed to conflict to me.

quote:


but you have to take care not to love yourself so much that you have no capacity left to love another.


This is interesting to me, in that I find the more I love myself, the more love I have to give others, and the healthier that love is.


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(in reply to ranja)
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RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 9:01:20 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:


but you have to take care not to love yourself so much that you have no capacity left to love another.


Wow, I must have missed that earlier. I have to say I disagree. I find people that don't love themselves are often hellbent on finding someone that will give them what they lack. And they're usually looking in all the wrong places as well.

~porcelaine


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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 9:09:18 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		no no no... that is not what i said at all... i maintain of the opinion that it is of importance to have love for yourself, to look after number one so to speak... but if the love a person is capable of feeling is all about themselves they live a sorry life in my opinion.

As the love i have for myself (and that is rather a lot) just is... but the love that i feel for others is what feels special to me, because the love i am capable of feeling for others is what carries me to greater hights, the love i have for myself just takes care of me, no real highs at all really, just comfort...

< Message edited by ranja -- 7/30/2010 9:10:21 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 9:21:02 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

no no no... that is not what i said at all... i maintain of the opinion that it is of importance to have love for yourself, to look after number one so to speak... but if the love a person is capable of feeling is all about themselves they live a sorry life in my opinion.


Thank you for explaining. While I don't consider them sorry per se, they wouldn't be my ideal choice in partner. It is possible the behavior is a defense mechanism or the person never learned how to love others in a healthy manner.

quote:

As the love i have for myself (and that is rather a lot) just is... but the love that i feel for others is what feels special to me, because the love i am capable of feeling for others is what carries me to greater hights, the love i have for myself just takes care of me, no real highs at all really, just comfort...


Oh I get a high. Pampering myself is a very enjoyable event.

And although I am giving by nature, I've learned the importance of balancing that as well. It is equally important that I give to myself and do the same with others without expectation. Anything taken to excess can be bad. I try to walk the middle ground whenever possible.

~porcelaine


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 9:33:53 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I do not want to control your life....that takes work. way too much fucking work. if you are incapable of taking control of your own life and actions then you are not ever going to receive my "collar of consideration."

As a submissive are you not supposed to try and make your Dom's life easier?

How does being a total drain and being incapable of taking charge of your own affairs make my life easier?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/30/2010 9:34:18 AM >

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RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 9:59:42 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		oh domi how lazy ... who is you? porcelaine? it might be unthinkable but she might not be interested...

as for subs trying to make a dom's life easier... well i suppose in some aspects some of them do... but most of them are only human and i suppose sometimes they need their dom's to make them happy instead... bit of give and take really

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 10:07:20 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		There is give and take...But when you start to take too much you become nothing more than a drag.

You are the sub. What are the responsibilities of the sub?

Too make things more difficult or easier for the Dom?

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RE: held in a fist or not - 7/30/2010 10:42:29 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is give and take...But when you start to take too much you become nothing more than a drag.

You are the sub. What are the responsibilities of the sub?

Too make things more difficult or easier for the Dom?



In our relationship, mine and Alandra's responsibilities are to do as we are told. Whether we make things easier or more difficult for him is up for him to decide. If she and I make assumptions about what would make his llife easier and act upon it without the authority to do so, then we would get into trouble.

For a lot of people 'making the dominants life easier' is the approach they take. For him, it is 'do as you are told'.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: held in a fist or not - 7/31/2010 4:25:32 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is give and take...But when you start to take too much you become nothing more than a drag.

You are the sub. What are the responsibilities of the sub?

Too make things more difficult or easier for the Dom?


yes, i am afraid i did become a total drag for a while... but that was only after He became very mean and stopped giving it to me... that is my excuse anyway.... and indeed it did not get me anywhere but in a deeper hole, it was seriously not funny...

Fortunately i realised who i was (better late than never) and managed to un-drag myself... (thank god He stuck it out)
i suppose my main responsibility is to make Him want to give it to me.
and that is indeed by far not as difficult as it once seemed.

So what would you consider a Dom's responsibility is?
if the sub happens to be your (bangable) wife and you share your lives, live in the same house and that... would you not consider controlling her and telling her what to do if that made life easier?

< Message edited by ranja -- 7/31/2010 4:26:50 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: held in a fist or not - 8/2/2010 6:36:15 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is give and take...But when you start to take too much you become nothing more than a drag.

You are the sub. What are the responsibilities of the sub?

Too make things more difficult or easier for the Dom?


I have to echo was Kyra said.  My job is not to make his life easier, it is to obey and to completely be myself.  That is what he enjoys.  He lets me know what he wants of me.  Sometimes it enhances his mood more to do things for me, rather than the other way around.  And there are some things he prefers to do himself.

In my last relationship it was all about making his world better, but that relationship was more Owner/property in nature.  This relationship is about both of us.  It gives him pleasure to see me live a happy, healthy, well balanced life. 

That said, we don't depend on each other for our happiness.  We find that within ourselves.  We certainly add to and enhance each others happiness, but we're not the actual source of it.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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