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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:43:24 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Only 70% of all students in public high schools graduate, and only 32% of all students leave high school qualified to attend four-year colleges.

Only 51% of all black students and 52% of all Hispanic students graduate,

and only 20% of all black students and 16% of all Hispanic students leave high school college-ready.

The graduation rate for white students was 72%; for Asian students, 79%; and for American Indian students, 54%. The college readiness rate for white students was 37%; for Asian students, 38%; for American Indian students, 14%.

I think this data is from 2000 but I don't imagine it has changed much. Clearly, the problem seems to be systemic inadequate public school student readiness.

The antecedents to the problem are probably varied. I haven't a clue what a practical solution might be.



Merit based pay, vouchers and eliminate tenure. Its not that hard.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:45:31 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Only 70% of all students in public high schools graduate, and only 32% of all students leave high school qualified to attend four-year colleges.

Only 51% of all black students and 52% of all Hispanic students graduate,

and only 20% of all black students and 16% of all Hispanic students leave high school college-ready.

The graduation rate for white students was 72%; for Asian students, 79%; and for American Indian students, 54%. The college readiness rate for white students was 37%; for Asian students, 38%; for American Indian students, 14%.

I think this data is from 2000 but I don't imagine it has changed much. Clearly, the problem seems to be systemic inadequate public school student readiness.

The antecedents to the problem are probably varied. I haven't a clue what a practical solution might be.


Vince how will affirmative action help your statistics... Your figures are a little low for my school district but close…all children get the same education opportunities… attend to same schools. What they do with these opportunities is up to them and their parents.

I am saying perhaps the answer to the problem is outside the education system. .. An certainly affirmative action programs.

Butch

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:48:48 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
In my experience at many years at AT&T, affirmative action hiring was used often to fill quotas. Many unqualified people were put in certain positions. All this did was make the qualified people who were promoted look bad. It was assumed that they were also in a certain job because of their race. I believe that this hurts minorities more than it helps them.

I chalk these kinds of events to poor implementation, just like high schools that banned Christian prayer groups from campuses, where there was no mandate requiring that from the DOE.  (BTW, was this before the breakup?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
In my experiences with AA, being qualified has nothing to do with it. It should but it just doesn't...

A limited set of data to be sure.  Unless someone here's worked in HR at a large corporation, all of us are basing things on just our perceptions.

I most often hear AA complaints when it comes to dealing with municipal agencies and there's poor customer service involved.  If the staffer was black or hispanic, then the problem was AA.  If the staffer was "white", then they were just numbnuts.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:55:38 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I believe rather than affirmative action that the economic standing of applying students, of relativity equal abilities, should be the only factor for financial aid. If this means African American or Vietnamese or average white American so be it…those that need it will get the help with the best chance to succeed.

Butch

This is just how I'd like it.  Class can post a far larger barrier to education than race.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:56:08 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		HERE are our statistics... much better than those you are posting.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:57:03 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Vince how will affirmative action help your statistics... Your figures are a little low for my school district but close…all children get the same education opportunities… attend to same schools. What they do with these opportunities is up to them and their parents.

I am saying perhaps the answer to the problem is outside the education system. .. An certainly affirmative action programs.


The continuing problem seems to be at the neighborhood level. I caught flak for saying that on here before but that is what I believe. Again, I don't know what the practical solutions are especially when you are dealing with poor families in deteriorating neighborhoods. The poor are not to blame imo. Nor is race to blame. It would take a massive effort of targeted education and health programs to transform neighborhoods and I don't think that is the way America is going. As Shirley said, it is about poverty. Just sayin...

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vML

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 10:59:46 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I agree with you and we will both most likely get flak for saying so...but economics is the way to go not race... otherwise there will be a huge backlash and that is not what the poor and minorities need.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/24/2010 11:01:09 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:03:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you and we will both most likely get flak for saying so...but economics is the way to go not race... otherwise there will be a huge backlash and that is not what the poor need.

Butch


Economics for those who lack education readiness and job readiness??? That is a catch 22, Butch.
Who will invest in desperate Detroit?

Aren't those kids pretty much doomed unless they have an exceptional talent they can market?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:11:18 AM   
Onmyknees4Mstrs


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Status: offline 		The underlying factor in virtually every post so far seems to be what has (is) one of the stickiest wickets for aa.......what defines qualified? Several posters have mentioned they were passed over in favor of less qualified individuals, but were there any set levels of criteria to base that promotion/hiring off of? I can only recount my own experience in order to possibly shed a some light on the definition of what constitutes qualified so that you the reader can make your own judgement from it.

Several years back (more than I care to admit actually) I tested for a fire dept with the hopes of moving out of the one I was already employed with in order to make a better salary, more opportunity for advancement etc. I had 4 years experience on the floor at this point. One of the conditions for testing was to be EMT certified, so I took a course and passed without any problems. When I arrived at the written exam (most depts use series of tests in order to methodically reduce the applicant pool by written, physical agility test then interview board before generating the hiring list) a young lady who was in my emt class and also in my study group was also taking taking the test.  A few weeks later, the dept mailed out our test results, and I scored an 83, which wasn't bad considering I never had tested like that before nor had I studied any of the books they recommended prior to testing, and I wasn't being invited to move on to the physical agility portion of the hiring process. I called my classmate to see how she had fared, and she scored a 68, and HAD been invited to continue the hiring process. I was obviously the more qualified of the two of us, but where was the dividing line drawn for being "qualified" and if she was above that line, how else but by instituting a race/gender quota system could a situation like this be explained. 

Understand, i'm not angry or bitter about the situation now, though i was at the time. I'm doing quite well in the dept I work for and have thoroughly enjoyed myself the whole time i've been working there. Just wanted to add a little more concrete example for those to take away from what they will is all.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:21:10 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		Having lived in Detroit ,there's a HUGE economic issue that's underscored by culture ideals of "prosperity". When, in these types of neighborhoods, black kids are actively encouraged to drop out of high school, start being "cool" by "runnin' with the boys", etc. There's a cultural standard based on race at that rate. And THAT's what has to be over come.

My experience from living in mostly white King of Prussia, PA and Royersford, PA, what I learned through observation is that kids of all races in less densely populated areas have a greater rate of success.

There is a part of this issue that doesn't get talked about and that is in some neighborhoods and families it's considered a better choice to drop out of high school and run drugs because it's faster cash. THAT culture, that choice of living is perpetuated by economics. And economics, because of MANY factors out of public control, is mostly divided along racial lines; though it's better than it has been in the past.

It's a nasty fuckin cycle.

boi


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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:28:02 AM   
MissAsylum


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Status: offline 		So what you're saying is, if an able bodied woman is picked over you, you are being discriminated against? if somebody who is missing a limb or has cp is just as mentally capable as you, you are being discriminating against. If you didn't understand the OP,the least you could have done in asked for clarification.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:54:26 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

So what you're saying is, if an able bodied woman is picked over you, you are being discriminated against? if somebody who is missing a limb or has cp is just as mentally capable as you, you are being discriminating against. If you didn't understand the OP,the least you could have done in asked for clarification.


Uhhhhh, generally when someone says they dont understand something it means they are asking for clarification.

And your first two questions dont have nearly enough information to respond to.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 11:59:54 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Affirmative action as run in the usa is racist in favour of 'black people'. Don't really see how ya could have not got that OP.



If that is true then all you need to do is dye your skin and curl your hair and you too can rise to the top of that alleged mountain

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 12:03:40 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		"If that is true"

If the sky is up, if grass is green, is the sun is hot.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 12:03:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Will vince affirmative action sure has not worked then...maybe it is more choice then discrimination. Maybe the way to prosperity is easier and less expensive in other fields of endeavor.

Butch

PS when I say easier I mean less time and less expensive. It seems there is a shortage in all races of doctors...hard work, long hours, no vacation, high insurance...on and on... I'm surprised we have any new doctors.



In cuba the patient to doctor ratio is the lowest in the world and the pay and benifits for doctors are significantly lower than here...is it possible that there are other factors at work?

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 12:15:56 PM   
MissAsylum


Posts: 1863
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline 		considering the amount of posts on this thread who answered with no problem- i disagree that there isn't enough information to answer this thread.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 1:04:40 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		There has to be a time limit on affirmative action, you simply can't have it going on for generation after generation, decade after decade.
It was supposed to be a "hand up" not a hand out.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 1:31:17 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Affirmative action as run in the usa is racist in favour of 'black people'. Don't really see how ya could have not got that OP.


Well, not exactly, Woody.

FYI ... Title IX of the 1972 Education Act... check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 1:48:33 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Having lived in Detroit ,there's a HUGE economic issue that's underscored by culture ideals of "prosperity". When, in these types of neighborhoods, black kids are actively encouraged to drop out of high school, start being "cool" by "runnin' with the boys", etc. There's a cultural standard based on race at that rate. And THAT's what has to be over come.

My experience from living in mostly white King of Prussia, PA and Royersford, PA, what I learned through observation is that kids of all races in less densely populated areas have a greater rate of success.

There is a part of this issue that doesn't get talked about and that is in some neighborhoods and families it's considered a better choice to drop out of high school and run drugs because it's faster cash. THAT culture, that choice of living is perpetuated by economics. And economics, because of MANY factors out of public control, is mostly divided along racial lines; though it's better than it has been in the past.

It's a nasty fuckin cycle.

boi




A nasty fuckin cycle exactly. As a teacher in public high schools I was well aware of the peer pressure for "black authenticity." On the other hand, although I do not have the statistics, we have seen growth of the black middle class in America these past several decades. Maybe it was a wave of prosperity lifting all boats. However, clearly educated and prosperous blacks are not a rarity. Some of that surely can be attributed to AA in hiring. Much of it to opportunities in sports and music, I suppose.

Having said that and understanding individual angst among white men over incidents of being cut out of a desired job or school slot, I think AA continues to be important. But I think the deeper problem is in the impoverished inner cities which have been abandoned by the prosperous of all races. As boi says we need to provide alternative economic opportunities against the drug culture. Who will invest in Detroit and stop sending manufacturing jobs to China and Vietnam?

I am not optimistic.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... - 7/24/2010 2:00:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


[ Who will invest in Detroit and stop sending manufacturing jobs to China and Vietnam?

I am not optimistic.


Any company that is able to profit in an environment that is more and more anti-business every week.

You have good reason not to be optimistic, at least until the electorate wakes up, like it has started to in Europe.

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