RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:24:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

True LP. But, in order to get a picture ID, those forms are acceptable.

This is true, which takes it back to verification in other ways. 

Still, the debate on verifying employment is not the original question.  This side discussion is about what employers are supposed to be doing to verify that someone has the right to work in the country.  Not preventing them from coming across the boarder in the first place.

Any employer that has submitted the copies of the employees documents with the I-9 has done their job if they believe the documents are authentic.  (Let's not get into "they do it anyway".) 

When the oil was spilling into the ocean, nobody was saying that there was already X amount in there anyway.  They were saying cap the source before the problem becomes worse.  It's the very same thing with the boarder. 



tazzygirl -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:27:08 AM)

Exactly, LP. If the employer does his job, then he is free and clear. All these side tracks .. lol.

In order to secure the border, we have to take away what draws people across... mainly jobs.



thishereboi -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:27:18 AM)

I was going to respond but my crayon broke.



tazzygirl -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:28:22 AM)

smart [;)]



LadyPact -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:28:37 AM)

Was it purple?



thishereboi -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:29:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Was it purple?


Of course[:)]



AsmodaisSin -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:30:40 AM)

The problem with that is that these larger companies are so...accustomed to paying lower prices for their labor.  So...in order to remove temptation from the people coming here illegally, we have to force/entice/coerce/bribe/whatever these companies into hiring Americans who expect a higher income than what the companies are paying these illegals. 

-Shrugs.-  This is a rough discussion with no easy answers.  People will get the shit end of the stick no matter what choice we make. 



thishereboi -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:34:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

The problem with that is that these larger companies are so...accustomed to paying lower prices for their labor.  So...in order to remove temptation from the people coming here illegally, we have to force/entice/coerce/bribe/whatever these companies into hiring Americans who expect a higher income than what the companies are paying these illegals. 

-Shrugs.-  This is a rough discussion with no easy answers.  People will get the shit end of the stick no matter what choice we make. 



Yea, and I think that is the reason the folks in CA are fighting against this so much. Take away their illegal aliens and they no longer have their cheap labor force to exploit.



vincentML -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:36:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

As Domiguy pointed out, all the anger is focused on the southern border, not the Canadian line. Why? Because the Latinos "are not like us."


Well that could be because the living condition in Canada are not so terrible that people would be willing to do anything to get out of there. But don't let common sense get in the way of a good rant.

Speaking of xenophobia, has anyone seen kittin lately?



So, how exactly do Canadian living conditions address the commonly expressed concerns about drugs and terrorism?



truckinslave -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:38:17 AM)

To play your game, I first need to know your definition of "secure".



mnottertail -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:38:29 AM)

I dont see why we would.  Look, enforce the law, from the employer side, make it not worth their while financially to be a scofflaw.   If you bring suit against them for violations of these federal acts (including labor law acts) and they are spending their time in court, in fines and name smeared all over the paper in the stings, two things are going to happen, jobs will dry up for the illegals.....the reason they come here.  It will become to large a burden to try and save bucks thereby increasing profit by hiring them the reason the companies do it.   Somebody gotta hunt and club the lettuce to death, or it rots in the field, losing money.  The purpose of a company (well, theoretically) is to make it, not lose it, so they will jack the price and pay prevailing wages.    



thishereboi -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 8:42:07 AM)

Did I say they did? But since you brought it up, why don't you enlighten us all.



realwhiteknight -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 10:56:26 AM)

quote:

hat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

We appreciate your slapstick comedy, and maybe if NOTHING is done, and this country
is overtaken by terrorists from all over the world, and 9/11 is small potatoes,




Actually, it's not slapstick comedy. Slapstick comedy could only occur in virtual reality, which is what you appear to be living in. I'm getting a panic attack just reading your paranoid posts. And dammit, I ran out of zoloft.




realwhiteknight -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:02:48 AM)

quote:

of the greatest minds of all times to lead us, the internet prick with all the jokes, and usually nothing to say, that spends most of his life trashing other people and spewing
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressRosalyn

OK, I'm going to step in and say this:

As long as our border with Mexico looks like this, we will never be able to control illegal immigration. And before y'all jump down my throat, I am only addressing one issue purposely. The only thing I am trying to do is to demonstrate how ineffective our border currently is.

These photos were taken by me on the US/Mexico Border near Palominas, Arizona. Yes, that cut barbed wire fence is our border, and in the second picture, the road in the left is in the US, and the one on the right is in Mexico.
[image]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/4834498572_74f70aa229_b.jpg[/image]

[image]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/4833888827_07a1ebe0dd_b.jpg[/image]



I vote, Great Wall of America. It'll be *totally* fun. We can attract tourists to come see it every year. Unfortunately mot people don't seem to think we need to build another one to keep those pesky Canadians from coming in. That *would* be alot of tax dollars just to keep ice hockey enthusiasts and the illegal maple syrup out of our country, but it'd be worth it.



vincentML -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:07:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Did I say they did? But since you brought it up, why don't you enlighten us all.


My post was in response to E3's assertion that the main reason for closing the border was drugs. We have had an open border north and south for 230 years. The current hysteria over drugs and terrorists is a bogus attempt to hide our xenophobia. We are selectively obsessed with the southern border. Drugs and terrorists can presumably cross just as easily from the North. It is a much longer border. There is no demand for a fence there, however. My conclusion is that drugs and terrorism are bogus issues.

I did not contest that Latinos are motivated by the need for jobs as well. I did not even mention the jobs issue. You brought it up with your comment on the Canadian living conditions. Why? Because you responded hastily and thoughtlessly? Or you really have no answer to my principle statement? I will repeat it: America has a history of xenophobia. Many fear the cultural invasion of brown people, and use other issues to camoflage their real agenda.

If you wish to debate my point, all well and good. Please do so in a forthright manner without changing the subject of my post.



jlf1961 -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:08:38 AM)

Well, the wall idea works until you get to El Paso TX, from there to Brownsville TX is the Rio Grand River. No wall in the river.

Of course, you can tunnel under a wall, so how deep in the ground are you going to put the foundations to said wall?

Again, short of militarizing the border, you are not going to secure it.

Truckinslave, secure as in making it impossible for someone to cross illegally.



slvemike4u -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:22:19 AM)

That is an impossible goal jlff....at least while maintaining the illusion of an open society .I for one would lament my country taking on the appearence of an East German state....or approximating the look of a demilitirized zone ala N. and S. Korea.
Certainly I would reject those steps were they to be taken at the alter of thinly disguised racism...Vincent,and others have hit the nail on the head here....it is xenophobia,it is fear of losing the battle of thhe bedrooms....and finally and probably most important it is fear of the changing demographics in the voter rolls of the future.



jlf1961 -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:31:58 AM)

I started this thread to prove a point to the neocons about "securing the border" to stop illegal immigration.

They would have to be willing to militarize the border with barbed wire, military patrols, guard towers, sensors and have everything manned 24/7.

As you said, it would look very much like the cold war border between east and west Germany or the DMZ between north and south Korea.

Also securing the border does nothing to stop illegals entering the country in other ways, such as boats, illegals who over stay their visas etc.



slvemike4u -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:35:11 AM)

In that case I would say job well done...'cept for the fact that the folks you are trying to convince are so blinded by their racism,latent or otherwise that they will always fail to "see/get" the message.



DomYngBlk -> RE: What would it take to actually secure the border with Mexico? (7/27/2010 11:38:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

A fence? Fences can be cut.

Putting troops on the border every 500 to 1000 feet? That is an excessive amount of manpower, and would it be effective stopping large groups of people crossing the border?

The most secure border in modern history was probably the Cold War border between East and West Germany. To keep their people from leaving—logistically much easier than keeping others from entering—the East Germans built more than 700 watchtowers, sprinkled more than a million antipersonnel mines, created a deep no-man's zone of barbed wire and electric fencing, and deployed nearly 50 guards per square mile with shoot-to-kill orders. Even so about 1,000 people each year somehow managed to find a way across. source

Perhaps if we brought ALL of the US troops presently stationed around the world, we could effectively secure the border with constant air, mechanized and foot patrols. Guard towers every thousand feet, anti personnel devices (landmines, razor wire, electric fences) but would it be enough?

Would that stop tunneling? Sure there are sensors to detect tunneling, but what do you do when you detect a tunnel? Use explosives to cave it in?


Securing the US Mexico border is much more complicated than just putting up a fence and patrolling a border.

You would need constant patrols, and not every so often but round the clock patrols.




We should bring the troops home from Iraq/Afghanistan and invade 75 miles into Mexican territory and set up shop.  This would force not only the Mexican Oligarchy but the people there to face up to the internal problems that are Mexico. There will be no change at the border no matter what we do unless the internal problems if Mexico are addressed.



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