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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 7:08:57 AM   
bschwimmer


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I say we should go for it now while we still have an advantage

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 7:11:13 AM   
mnottertail


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??????????

I can find nothing more to say of these attitudes.  NOINERS!!!!!!

Ron

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 7:38:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Rationalizing to justify the Iranian and Muslim position; regretting that Hitler's regime didn't win WWII, drawing a comparison to interment of a people who 60+ years ago were from a country who the US was in a declared war, and of course - blaming President Bush; has ANY US President ever been given the same free reign and lack of accountability as Iran's President Ahmadinejad? Would any people, openly declaring death and destruction of anyone who is not practicing their brand of religion be supported and justified as are the Muslims? The majority of the US / President Bush haters had a couple items in common; they offered no solution, and they sited exceptional examples of "reasons" usually decades old, of why people need to understand why Muslims are "justified". Why are their "Palestinians"? Because when Israel was formed, Muslim countries, primarily Egypt, "guaranteed" that the state of Israel would be short lived. The "Palestinians" were a loosely banded nomad people. They were promised that after Israel was destroyed they would be given that land. They are still waiting. But the "Palestinian problem" was caused as much by the Arab/Muslim world as it was the UN's establishment of Israel.

More Muslims have been killed by Muslims than any crusade, middle-age version or current. Saddam, a Muslim, set the standard for that. If you are in the wrong sect, you may as well be an infidel. This fact is the main reason democracy won't work in an Arab state. The philosophy of "my way or die" also is applied between the sects. The closest any western or Christian "fundamentalist regime" gets to that is predicting the "death" of my soul. I'll take my chances with my soul. Saying; "Allah be damned!" or just showing his picture gets your body maimed and/or killed in the Muslim world. If you see no difference there is no way to debate the issues.

For those whose only focus in life is to blame Bush - I hear that the reason the weather was 90+ degrees in parts of Texas was that he wanted to go swimming on his ranch this weekend and arranged to the heat wave so his pool water would be warmer.

If you believe the current situation in the middle east is the direct result of the last 6 years of the current administration you know little about the region or it's history. It's as much Eisenhower as it is Bush. It's as mush Truman as it was Clinton. President Bush only has President Carter below him as a least effective President. Only in the US can you have 4% unemployment and a growing economy and yet be so stubborn on a failed attempt to bring democracy to an inherently un-democratic people. He should have learned from his father - win the battle and leave. But President Bush's failure to learn from that example puts him and the US in a no-win position. The people there do not deserve the blood of our solders. But from a strict debate/argument tactic, address the issues not the man. Everyone knows who is responsible for this failure, attacking the person will only generate sympathy and a "circle the wagons" around the leader mentality. There are enough decisions and consequences to make the same points. I make them all the time when trying to convince my staunch Republican friends to join my "Your Out" movement. But they are as label centric as the other side. They prefer their side's label to the other without seeing the perspective that, without a personality involved, behind the label is the same stale product. Budweiser versus Miller - after all the rhetoric of commercials, behind both labels there is still weak tasting beer in both bottles. The same is true with Democratic versus Republican.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 8:12:16 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Y'know, when the US minded their own business this was not a problem. Who the fuck are we to to tell all these countries whether they are allowed to be able to defend themselves ? Does anyone ask us to give up our nukes ?


Well, I'm not unique in making that suggestion based on the concept that in an Information War age, nukes are not just immoral, but they are ineffective in reaching the goal of war, destroying the enemies will and ability to make war.  But I've gone into detail into that elsewhere.

quote:



China and Israel both have better Navies than us, smaller, but lots of subs with nukes.

While they have a number of Romeo and Ming conventional submarines and have purchased a few Kilo's (The same class that you can see tied up next to the Queen Elizabeth as a tourist trap.)  They only have six nuclear-powered submarines, one of these
is Xia-class a nuclear-powered SSBN, with twelve Julang-1 (JL-1) missiles whose range is far short of "intercontinental."  One sub commander I met about five years ago called the Xia "a whistling steampot in a boiler factor" and a "extremely soft target."  The sole other underwater threat may be the newly launched Type 094, an expanded Xia, capable of carrying 16 JL-2 missiles with a range of 8,000 miles.  However, repeated reports of both weaponary and engineering casualties explains why it seems to spend most of its time in port.

I'm less involved with Mideast weapons but I think Israel has only three modern German-built submarines.  All are conventionally powered and none have vertical launch tubes for IRBMs or ICBMs.  I recall there was some discussion when it was discovered several of the torpedo tubes were ordered in a 650 cm format which would be capable of handling a nuclear armed torpedo.
quote:


So does mother Russia. They have planes and missiles that are clearly superior to ours. Moskit 2 missiles (Sunburn) are indefensible with our technology.


The Moskit ramjet is an interesting little toy with some advantages but it's hardly "indefensible with our technology."  For one thing, it's short range (50 miles or so) means the launch platform is well within detect/attack parameters.   It's very fast although there is an active debate about whether it is mach 2 or 3.  This only means that quick response is needed to go from weapons tight to weapons free on board the target and her supporting vessels.  Actually, the high speed limits evasive maneuvers and so makes the solution for devices like the Phalanx CIWS system easier.

Another note, when a military expert talks about the enemies weapons to the general public there is a tendency to express their capabilities as being greater than they are.

There are several reasons for this:

  Get more R&D and ops money
  Excuse any clusterfuck if we have to fight those weapons
  Give the enemy a nice warm feeling of confidence that we know is unjustified.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 8:28:18 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The Balfour Declaration was done as a favor to European Jews who invented, and then broke a code for the English military during WW2. What a scam. Alot of people know they broke the code, but it is very little publicized that they invented it. Evidence exists, although I can't prove it conclusively right now, I might be able to soon.


If you are talking about Enigma, you're wrong.  It was a development on past art but the machine was all German and dated back to world war one  They even sold an export version to anyone with the money to buy.  What made things so confusing was there was no Enigma Code.  Each day there was an entirely different code based on changes in the wiring using rotors  within the machine.  The weakness of the "code" was that the changes were transmitted to all machines as the last message of the day (think in terms of a phone ladder).  Read that message and you had the system in your hand, but without knowing what the day's wiring was made posession of the code machine itself useless.  The actual break through was made initially by the Poles and further developed by Englishmen like Alan Turing.  There probably were Jewish member of the Bletchley Park team but it was by no means "a Jewish shop."

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 8:31:10 AM   
JohnWarren


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Yup, the prez as a drunken biker and celebrating sending people to concentration camps based on their skin color.

This is a diverse group.... I guess it could be seen as a plus



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(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 8:50:41 AM   
zoviet


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bloody hell - 85% of the Iranian people have no hostility towards the West, or to the US in particular. All of that changes after the first Iranian (non-combatant or otherwise) is killed by any invasive action.

Ahmadinejad preserves his leadership in large part by pandering to the Jaafari leaders and certain Ayatollahs while most of the population is cynical towards these religious authorities. Any strike, in particular by the US, would radically sway the populace towards Ahmadinejad and would consolidate his support.

If I were the President, I would step up efforts to support revolutionary elements in Iran.
The current mess in the region is due in large part to Western intervention, both covert and outright, to create a stable environment for the extraction of oil - so why stop now?

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 3:32:57 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

England gave Palestine to the Jews, who are ironically no longer in control of the country. Now there are these Palestinians, but they don't seem to matter. The Balfour Declaration was done as a favor to European Jews who invented, and then broke a code for the English military during WW2. What a scam. Alot of people know they broke the code, but it is very little publicized that they invented it. Evidence exists, although I can't prove it conclusively right now, I might be able to soon.


Israel fought against British soliders for independance. They were committing terrorist acts on the soliders for years beforehand as well. The original plan was to partition the area into two nations, one for Jews and one for Palestinians. The Balfour Declaration was made a while BEFORE WWII. Given that host of falsehoods, I doubt you'll be able to prove any such conspiracy theory soon.

quote:

It is all a scam, GWB really wasn't in the classroom when 9/11 happened. Don't bother to check it out, Micheal Moore is an asshole and needs to be shot. How dare he say such things in the land of the free and the home of the brave ? Kill him. Kill him now. He is a conspiracy theorist and must go.


Michael Moore is a scumbag. In both Bowling for Columbine and Farenheit 9-11, he cuts and splices speeches to suit his propaganda purposes. He even splices together DIFFERANT speeches into one speech. But yeah, he's a crusader for truth, right?

*meow*

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 4:25:31 PM   
Lordandmaster


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What are you talking about?  The Balfour Declaration was in 1917, long before WW II.  And I wasn't aware that Chaim Weizmann was involved in making or breaking military code.  This shit would qualify as defamation if any of the principals were still alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The Balfour Declaration was done as a favor to European Jews who invented, and then broke a code for the English military during WW2. What a scam. Alot of people know they broke the code, but it is very little publicized that they invented it. Evidence exists, although I can't prove it conclusively right now, I might be able to soon.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 8:26:56 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Basic policy: Iran is a country with split level of government. The elections were notably rigged for President. I would recognize the legislature of Iran as holding the legitimate power of government and hold an official policy that the Presidency is held under an illegal coup. In other words, I would only recognize diplomats appointed by the legislature from that country. Any sent from the President of Iran would be detained and deported. Any sent from that President who have notable records of international law violations would be offered to the UN and related tribunal bodies before simple deportation.

Actions: I would quickly work to secure oil and coal supply lines with promised minimums from South America and Asia. I would try to find consensus points with other nations and found a political and economic coalition to deal with Iran on that common ground. I would direct policy advisors to research the most effective tools to place pressure on Iran. I would direct policy advisors to research the current up-to-date political landscape (or maybe minefield) of Near Eastern politics so we have reasonable prejudgements of reastions to a variety of actions. I would put the intelligence community to work not on military aims, but to find the greatest economic and political weaknesses of Iran.

After all that, I would place obsenely high tariffs on oil of Iranian origin (under trade exceptions for sanctions). I would tariff goods using secondary sanction rules on industrial products from countries with significant energy resources drawn from Iran. I would tax-exempt oil, coal and other energy products produced in our own hemisphere to offset the price rises sure to come from such actions. I would use other straightforward means to destabilize to political system and economy of Iran based on the analysis of the above direct research.

Line in the sand Statement: You certainly have every right to persue peaceful nuclear power under the Nonproliferation Treaty. However, you must abide by its terms and conditions, most importantly allowing full and free inspections of such facilities. We cannot accept the possibility of further nuclear arms proliferation. North Korea has set the tone for this political impasse. If you persist in violating the terms of the treaty, or choose to withdraw from the treaty, we will consider that you are seeking to develop nuclear weapons a priori. What occurs from this point forward is entirely in your hands. If you wish for us to treat you respectfully and without prejudice, respect your obligations to nonproliferation. Allow inspections and your peaceful nuclear energy efforts will not be impeded. Reject inspections and we will use whatever means are necessary to prevent the spread of nuclear arms.

Israel: Israel can be said to be a nation formed by an illegal land grab contrary to international law. It can also be said to be persisting in illegal aggression and occupation contrary to countless UN resolutions. Until Israel pulls itself back into the appropriate realm of lawful activity, I would not aid them if they were invaded. In fact, I would even cut off all military and other aid until they complied with such resolutions.

*meow*


I've been thinking on the original post since it was made, and feel that ArtCatDom has a plan worth consideration, for three reasons.
 
First, it takes real action, as opposed to some of the empty sanctions we read about before the latest round of conflict in Iraq. It also brings other nations into the pressure cooker, by threatening their pipeline to the world's largest consumer. I think this is very well thought out.
 
Second, it's a measured response, that doesn't tell anyone what to do ... but rather simply states what our response will be to certain actions. This puts us in a postion of making our point, while clearly articulating our policy. From my reading of late, this is a major sticking point with some western countries ... that the position of the United States is unclear.
 
Lastly, a plan is put in place to keep the taxpayer from feeling our foreign policy too deeply in the pocket book. I feel this is very important, in order to keep citizen backing for our policy.
 
I'm excluding the points made about Israel from my response, simply because I don't currently know enough about that topic to speak intelligently.

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 9:12:35 PM   
Termyn8or


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USA Lazzzerrr techiees
can zap any nuclear set off  long befor a fireing is close to Our
air space.

 
That is simply not true.
 
T

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 9:29:45 PM   
Termyn8or


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BTW;

Can anyone answer the question of how we got to be the ones who say who can have nukes ? Only we and Israel have the most, and don't want anyone else to have them.

The US was the first to use nukes, nobody else. Did anyone ask for inspections ?

We are talking about sovreign countries who would be pleased to leave us alone, but if you were Iran, what would you do ?

We constantly tell them that they have no right to defend themselves, well against almost everybody else OK, but not us. That is fucking tyranny.

Israel has over 100 neutron bombs, why are they OK ? Because they won't wreck the place ? It is OK for them to have them but nobody else, and that seems logical. That is sad. That is the saddest part, that people cannot seem to look at things objectively.

Who has ever used an atomic weapon other than the US ? Perhaps it is we who need inspections.

T

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 9:44:24 PM   
Enlightenment


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I didn't realize that the US ran around the globe starting wars...I thought we just ran around the world getting rid of troublemakers...

I am for MOST anything that is a preventive measure of saving American lives...better to be a bully now then losing a couple million people later...


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 9:45:29 PM   
gooddogbenji


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"For Might makes right, until they see the light, they've got to be protected, all their rights respected, 'till somebody we like can get elected."

                             Tom Lehrer, Send the Marines

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 10:42:10 PM   
subtlesubie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Certain cold logic tells me that they don't have a viable nuke capability.   


I don't think logic has much to do with it.  Pakistan has a sizable nuclear arsenal, yet walk around their country and you feel like you're in the 13th c.  Tehran on the other hand is like London without a subway.  Sophisticated, clean, friendly, modern.  Iranis aren't so different from us and would be a true ally (truer than Pakistan anyways) if we hadn't cocked it up by pursuing exclusively our national interests. 

Those that say blow them up:  read a history book you dumb fucks.

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/19/2006 11:38:24 PM   
FangsNfeet


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So Iran only has 100 people willing to blow themselves up in order to cause chaos around the globe. That's it? Only 100? That's weak in comparison as to how many americans are willing to die by going into Iran with guns and gernades killing everything in sight untill killed. That's only a potential of 100 explosions they can cause. One american air strike or a battle ship is more capable of making 100 confirmed explosions.

Iran, BRING IT ON! You want to get nuts? Lets get nuts! You're making bombs? We have bombs. You have hundreds of people ready to die for you? We have thousands ready to die for the USA. You like blowing up cars, airplanes, and buildings? We like obliterating entire cities repeatedly untill there's nothing but ash. Your little speech is nothing but the start of game we like to call Quale Hunting. We are the Vice Preident and you are our best friend. Are you ready to play? I know I am. Our nukes are already pointing at you.  

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/20/2006 12:09:33 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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I edited this because I'm beginning to believe the post above was written without a shred of humour or irony.

And that's humourously ironic.


< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 4/20/2006 12:18:14 AM >

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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/20/2006 1:17:09 AM   
Arpig


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You know, I would have considered replying to your questions, but since in an earlier post you spouted off some idiotic anti-semitic drivel about some jewish conspiracy crap....sorry but that has just relegated you and anything you say to the trash.
Now do the rest of the world a favour and keep your asinine and purile opinions and paranoid delusions to yourself.

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/20/2006 5:13:11 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

That's weak in comparison as to how many americans are willing to die by going into Iran with guns and gernades killing everything in sight untill killed. That's only a potential of 100 explosions they can cause............
Iran, BRING IT ON! You want to get nuts? Lets get nuts! You're making bombs? We have bombs. You have hundreds of people ready to die for you? We have thousands ready to die for the USA. You like blowing up cars, airplanes, and buildings? We like obliterating entire cities repeatedly untill there's nothing but ash............ Are you ready to play? I know I am. Our nukes are already pointing at you.  


even if this is intended as pure irony, this kind of thing is why some people over the world have stopped trusting the US.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
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RE: Iran - You Make the Call... - 4/20/2006 5:40:14 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Israel has over 100 neutron bombs, why are they OK ? Because they won't wreck the place ? It is OK for them to have them but nobody else, and that seems logical. That is sad. That is the saddest part, that people cannot seem to look at things objectively.


I'd really like to see the source of this "information" because it's wildly different from anything I've been able to pick up.

However, it is logical for Israel to work on neutron bombs.  Despite the misrepresentation you put forth, the primary purpose is not just to kill people while leaving the infrastructure in place.  The purpose of neutron bombs is to kill people in tanks, the primary mode of fighting in the MidEast (and would have been in places like the Funda Gap).

The mechanism is simple.  An "Enhanced Radiation Weapon" releases masses of neutrons.  These neutrons pass through building materiels like limestone and wood as well as human bodies fairly freely.  However, when they encounter metal, they create secondary effects including alpha, beta and gamma radiation as well as X-rays.  It is the secondaries that do the actually killing.  Tanks have a LOT of metal.  At a given distance from the explosion, a tank crew would be given a certain death sentence while a family in a typical Middle Eastern house would get a fairly mild dose.

Now, I'm personally in favor of banning nukes, as I've said before, but before someone can be for or against anything he or she should learn about it.

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 40
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