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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 4:39:08 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

His point was that he didnt say it, so there is nothing to back up, just as GWB never said the Iraq threat was imminent


My other wish is not to argue every nutcase statement Monkeyface has said. I have my opinion of what he meant; others have theirs. I've argued his apocalyptic religious beliefs and his statements before; tired of fighting with Islamapologists (which should be a word ), not to mention plain old ostriches and other spiritual and intellectual heirs of Chamberlain.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 7:16:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Oh fuck! You said it. Back it up.


No.


Yeh, figured you couldn't. Just more warmongering bullshit.


His point was that he didnt say it, so there is nothing to back up, just as GWB never said the Iraq threat was imminent.


I asked him to back up his statement re Iran missles: "they say they will launch them." Nothing to do with GWB.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 7:20:39 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

His point was that he didnt say it, so there is nothing to back up, just as GWB never said the Iraq threat was imminent


My other wish is not to argue every nutcase statement Monkeyface has said. I have my opinion of what he meant; others have theirs. I've argued his apocalyptic religious beliefs and his statements before; tired of fighting with Islamapologists (which should be a word ), not to mention plain old ostriches and other spiritual and intellectual heirs of Chamberlain.


As we tire arguing with Hitlerites, fanatics, and other sorts of fearmongers, and imperialists/colonialists, who would deplete our treasure in the quest to murder and force others into their vison of 'The way it ought to be'.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 7:28:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Well g'damit! I guess Harry Truman, Gen'l Marshall, and Gen'l MacArthur didn't get your memo in time to call off that nasty nation building they did in Japan and Germany after WW II. Or maybe, as you say, that one was not serious enough to fight.


Valid point.
But... check the ROEs. Could we pacify Iraq as we did Germany? Yes, if we were willing and able to destroy (not merely defeat) the entire region. We cannot do it with foreign fighters poring in from all sides without consequence to the nations that send/supply them.

That Japan is an island sorta simplified things and skews the analogy, n'est cs pas?


Actually, you and I are in agreement about nation building (no) and General Sherman (yes).
I am well aware of GWB's campaign position re nation building. And as you note he did not stick to it.
Same thing is happening in Afghanistan today. We should have been out of there long ago.
Nation building seems to be a neocon position, don't you think?

Back to the issue of attacking Iran. What is our vital security issue? What is the goal?


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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 7:34:16 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And before anyone answers vinces questions, without any depth of knowledge, I can cite several Time articles from 98 that say the situation with nukes is long known and progessing a little behind the timeline.  Now big wows here, we have had this nuke intelligence all along.

But again, I don't see why we give a fuck, Russia and China are the ones with the real  problems here.  Let them play stick and ball with one anothers head, give us some time to rebuild and then we can go in and spell them in the last round if it comes to that (which there is no reason to believe it will)  Remember, kiddies, Pakistan has nukes, India has nukes, lotsa folks in that region have nukes.

Iran don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight, and rightly so.  They haven't been the popular kid on the block for many many years.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 8:34:47 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Back to the issue of attacking Iran. What is our vital security issue? What is the goal?


The goals and vital national security interests are, simply, preventing nuclear war in the middle east and, two, preventing Iran from giving suitcase nuclear weapons and other WMDs to terrorists.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 8:35:56 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Remember, kiddies, Pakistan has nukes, India has nukes, lotsa folks in that region have nukes.

The more the merrier, uh?
What could possibly go wrong??
quote:

Remember, kiddies, Pakistan has nukes, India has nukes, lotsa folks in that region have nukes.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 8:41:19 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		What if?  What if?

What if it was the trees moving, made the wind blow?
What if you were eating a meatball and stuck the fork in your tonsils and bled to death?

Wars are plentiful, and we should not base invasions on what ifs.  They have had suitcase and dirty bomb technology for many years, and if the middle east starts fighting, and we find it in our vital interest to do something, once an act has been committed, thats a different kettle of fish.  Right now, Russia and China are most at risk, mostly Russia, though, because they, somewhat like us go fucking around in other countries internal affairs, China not so much.  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/2/2010 8:49:00 AM >

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 8:46:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Back to the issue of attacking Iran. What is our vital security issue? What is the goal?


The goals and vital national security interests are, simply, preventing nuclear war in the middle east and, two, preventing Iran from giving suitcase nuclear weapons and other WMDs to terrorists.


I don't understand why it is in our interest to prevent nuclear war anywhere but in North America. Please do not lecture me on world wide effects. I am aware. Therefore, it is a worldwide issue not an american issue.

As to suitcase nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists .... NKorea is just as likely a candidate as is a Pakistan under the domination of radical islamists.

Are we to send troops everywhere or would it be better to develop and focus detection technology to survail our ports and borders? Clearly, the volunteer army is not capable of attending to all the possibilities re: suitcase nukes.

I have to agree with Ron... Let Russia, China, and India deal with it.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 11:49:37 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Wars are fought for money, marbles and chalk. Your understanding of why wars are fought is fatally flawed.


Religion is one of the commonest causes of war. Let me guess... you're a big supporter of the public schools?



Are you a big supporter of ignorance?

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 11:54:48 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
As to suitcase nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists .... NKorea is just as likely a candidate as is a Pakistan under the domination of radical islamists.

The suitcase nuclear weapon thing is a strawman argument in the first place. There's been quite a bit of research demonstrating that dirty bombs are unworkable. Of course, that would make fear mongering hysteria about the evil jihadists in the middle east unsustainable, so small wonder a lot of the American right ignores that.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 12:03:16 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Has your "histerical fact" kept them from killing amerikans? Just like viet nam we kept killing them until they won.


Viet Nam is of limited use as an analogy; you libs overuse it.
What has gotten Americans killed is sticking around under very tightly written rules of engagement.
Know who Sherman was? Know what he actually did? That's what I'm talkin about.
Invade, kill everything moving. Destroy everything not moving. Leave.
Or don't fight.



You obviously do not know much about warfare or sherman.
Have you ever been in the same zip code with a history book that was written for someone past the fifth grade?

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 2:05:53 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

NKorea is just as likely a candidate as is a Pakistan under the domination of radical islamists.


Agreed, I suppose, but imo far less likely than is Iran/Monkeyface to use them.

The only thing that has saved NKs ass and nuclear program is tens of thousands of artillery pieces they would immiediately target onto Seoul civilians.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 2:10:49 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

The suitcase nuclear weapon thing is a strawman argument in the first place. There's been quite a bit of research demonstrating that dirty bombs are unworkable.


Strawman? They're the issue.

If there is a final test of dirty bomb technology, I hope it occurs in the neighborhood of naysayers, rather than my own.
My head is neither in the sand nor in orifice.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 2:26:18 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		You missed that the CIA finally gave up on trying to make one that worked a couple of years back after wasting twenty years and Christ knows how much taxpayers' money on the research, then?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 2:31:15 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You missed that the CIA finally gave up on trying to make one that worked a couple of years back after wasting twenty years and Christ knows how much taxpayers' money on the research, then?


Well, I suppose one could give the CIA the final word.
Just not in my neighborhood.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 2:41:27 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		They had been trying to make a functional dirty bomb for years, and got nowhere. I'm surprised you'd not heard that one. No idea where they tested it it out, offhand.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 3:03:16 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well, other than the fact that a functional and useful dirty bomb would be about the size of a refrigerator (as would a suitcase bomb) and the lead shielding for it to last long enough to get someone to transport it alive would mean that the plane couldn't take off, yeah......

This should recieve the utmost priority. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 3:05:37 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		mnottertail, please do not confuse the right wing nutcases with facts, it has a detrimental effect on their higher brain functions resulting in rise in a number of insults and other senseless posting.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Gingrich Gone Mad - 8/2/2010 3:11:11 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, other than the fact that a functional and useful dirty bomb would be about the size of a refrigerator (as would a suitcase bomb) and the lead shielding for it to last long enough to get someone to transport it alive would mean that the plane couldn't take off, yeah......

This should recieve the utmost priority. 

Precisely. There's the fact that the radioactive materials are too dense to be powdered by the amount of explosives that could be viably packed around them, and too heavy to disperse very far if they were somehow powdered, is a bit of a sticking point as well.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 80
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