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RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/5/2010 8:59:52 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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So you want me to guess what your arguments are? OK, I'll be glad to do that. Just don't complain if i assign you an argument you wouldn't have picked for yourself.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/5/2010 9:17:46 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
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6 of the top 10 are lies so I’m not wasting my time with this except to say the Democrats produced a weak health care bill that can and should be improved in the future.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/5/2010 9:23:15 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So you want me to guess what your arguments are? OK, I'll be glad to do that. Just don't complain if i assign you an argument you wouldn't have picked for yourself.


I guess I have to spell it out for you, excuse me for overestimating your knowledge on the issue.

Berwick is a huge fan of the NHS, including redistribution of wealth.

The NHS rations, and their rationing has, according to British doctors, led to delay in treatment and/or death.

Wow, that was realllllllyyyyy hard.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 2:10:26 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
several representatives said they didn't have time (or 3 lawyers) to read it and peloski said we would have to pass it to find out what's in it...


Guess what, THE LADY, that's THEIR JOB! If they didn't have time to read it, then they had to make time. Would you give a child a passing grade to a book report, that they didn't even bother to read? They are paid, for their service. That means, they took money, they did not earn. Sorry, they have even less of an excuse, then many conservatives!

I read the House of Representative's version, the Senate version, AND, the Final Version! Did you? Nope.

Oh yes, to 'pass' a bill through Congress. If I have to explain this process to you, then you obvious never got past the 4th grade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
I don't know about some consertives, but when palin said death pannels I knew there were no pannels called death pannels...


I call 'bull droppings'! The grand majority of conservatives, were trying to use 'death panel's any way they could. Conveintly misunderstanding plain English, is a hallmark of the Republican Party these days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
...that what she was refering to was pannels that will regulate what services or meds would be allowed...


She was NOT referring to 'End of Life' conversations, which were being discussed as part of the final bill. She WAS referring to death panels, to kill the elderly off, and stroke fear and ignorance in conservatives. She did a good job, too!

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
...[?] and the guy our presbO choose to oversee the health care said last week that it was not a question of if we would have to ration care, we will have to do so, the question was if we would ration with our eyes open....


Our 'presbO'? You mean, President Obama, of the United States of America? That's 'presbO'? You know, I may hate George W. Bush, but I STILL, call the guy either A) Mr. George W. Bush, B) George W. Bush, or C) Former President George W. Bush, or, D) Mr. Bush. Why? Its RESPECTFUL! You would do well, to show some respect to our country, and our form of goverment! Kind of like how military people salute the rank, not the person wearing the rank?

Could you give the source, to the person your quoting?

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
...nope, no death pannels, but if u r too old (no reason to spend 10 thous. on an old geezer who may only have a few yrs left)....or as the presbO said his grandma should not have had knee surgery 2 yr before she died, or some times, you just have to tell them to take the blue pill or have if u have something rare and expensive ....


Why dont you first try to get your facts straight, and write, like an intelligent, person. Since, this quote, sounds like a delusional rambling of nothing coherant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
ahhh call it what ya want, but don't call it death pannels!


The word is 'panels', not 'pannels'. I can over look mispelling and grammer problems. Hell, I do it too. But jeez! You know what I find, particularly among people who stop using the front section of their brain? They cease the ability to think and speak rationally. Like the typical guy at a Tea Party rally that blames Obama for Socialism. But when asked what the word means, the person, just looks brain dead towards the camera and rattles off something incorherant. Like their brain just exploded from not knowing what their talking about. After that, they write and talk, pretty much, the manner you wrote things.

Sarah Palin called it Death Panels. Conservatives called it Death Panels, Republicans called it Death Panels and even conservative media....called it Death Panels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
and if it dosen't work, if it upsets people, they can always blame it on bush.


I dont blame George W. Bush, for this, as its not his fault. The fault likes with who I listed above. They all point their fingers, and yell, at the top of their lungs, for others to be responsible with power. Yet, when people show conservatives/Republicans the history books, the reckless use of power, they (conservatives/Republicans) ignore it and say 'its fabricated' and 'false'. If you want to say I'm full of it....

...Give me the exact location, down to the square inch, of every A) Nuclear, B) Chemical and C) Biological, weapon of mass destruction we found in Iraq, between the years of 2003-2008. You know....the #1 reason we invaded another country? Spent $3+ trillion (all on the national debt), got 10K+ of our soldiers killed, another 50K+ injured, and created an enviroment in which over 100K of civilians lost their lives?

Go on, I'm waiting...


(in reply to THELADY)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 2:28:09 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Who knew that US insurance companies would pay unlimited amounts no matter what cover you have got. I guess they never ever tell patients their insurance doesnt cover X, so they will have to stump up more cash.

The point those of you on the right miss, is this. EVERYONE in the UK gets a reasonable standard of health care. We know the NHS isnt perfect, but consider that on the whole the system works. Carry on pointing to the few failures within the system, which are rare and not the norm. Sure, if I am overweight and told I need to lose diet before having a new knee, you could call it rationing.

We call it self responsibility for ones own health. Isnt that what you are always preaching, or do you have double standards ?   << Rhetorical question, no answers needed.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 2:30:30 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

She was NOT referring to 'End of Life' conversations, which were being discussed as part of the final bill. She WAS referring to death panels, to kill the elderly off, and stroke fear and ignorance in conservatives. She did a good job, too!
quote:



Death panels in a nutshell. Nicely put Joether.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 5:58:06 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ever been to a NP? Do you even know what they are?


99.99999% of the time you go into any US VA hospital I've ever been in unless it is long term stuff or real advanced sort of stuff, you never ever ever even see a doc, always NPs. Been that way for many years.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 5:58:58 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Do you also prefer law clerks?


You mean like the law clerk who just became the newest supreme court justice?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 6:05:44 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Are they as highly trained as a doctor?


You do know that the ama contols the number of doctors who graduate each year in the u.s.
Which is why the u.s. ranks 47 in the world in patient to doctor ratio.
This is one of the reasons that n.p exist. To act as the first line. Do you feel that an n.p would hesitate to call an m.d. if they felt that there was something beyond their level of competence?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 6:07:50 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ever been to a NP? Do you even know what they are?


99.99999% of the time you go into any US VA hospital I've ever been in unless it is long term stuff or real advanced sort of stuff, you never ever ever even see a doc, always NPs. Been that way for many years.



To top it off mine is as smart as she is smokin' hawt

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 8:31:17 AM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So you want me to guess what your arguments are? OK, I'll be glad to do that. Just don't complain if i assign you an argument you wouldn't have picked for yourself.


I guess I have to spell it out for you, excuse me for overestimating your knowledge on the issue.

Berwick is a huge fan of the NHS, including redistribution of wealth.

The NHS rations, and their rationing has, according to British doctors, led to delay in treatment and/or death.

Wow, that was realllllllyyyyy hard.


That is the stupidest argument.....I don't know what the shit you're refering to as rationing, but it's better. No matter how bad you think the NHS is (in reality it's excellent, but let's leave that aside and go with your opinion that it's awful)..it's still better than nothing.

In the UK you go private or you get (in your opinion awful) treatment on the NHS.
In the USA you go private or you get NOTHING.

For any argument along those lines to work the NHS treatment would have to be worse than doing nothing at all.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 8:44:22 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Are they as highly trained as a doctor?


You do know that the ama contols the number of doctors who graduate each year in the u.s.
Which is why the u.s. ranks 47 in the world in patient to doctor ratio.
This is one of the reasons that n.p exist. To act as the first line. Do you feel that an n.p would hesitate to call an m.d. if they felt that there was something beyond their level of competence?



Actually, the main reason for the poor doctor-to-patient ratio in the USA is that the health insurance industry makes it unprofitable to be a General Practitioner. The reimbursement rates are too low and filing the claims with the dozens of different insurance companies - each one with different policies - takes far too much time.

Many GPs are simply closing up shop.


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:00:43 AM   
Hanscuff18


Posts: 22
Status: offline
Don't get them started on the military Joether. They'll tell you how we are supposed to be sent overseas without even the proper equipment to fight a war that was micromanaged by a non-combat flight instructor from the 1950's.

It's our job to be killed and permanently maimed in the name of freedom so the non-serving flag wavers can feel good about themselves.
They'll tell you we volunteered to go over there and kill innocent civilians, because protecting our country and bettering ourselves isn't why we joined or enlisted, it's because we love war.
Then if we question why we are over there, they will call us phonies and accuse us of not really being decorated veterans of this great country.
Semper Fi Joether. I like your style. Keep them on track, otherwise it's just talking points and insults.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:04:42 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
And those who are graduating are going straight into specialties, leaving a wider expanse between Dr and patient. An expanse NPs are willing and capable of filling.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:11:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Who knew that US insurance companies would pay unlimited amounts no matter what cover you have got. I guess they never ever tell patients their insurance doesnt cover X, so they will have to stump up more cash.

The point those of you on the right miss, is this. EVERYONE in the UK gets a reasonable standard of health care. We know the NHS isnt perfect, but consider that on the whole the system works. Carry on pointing to the few failures within the system, which are rare and not the norm. Sure, if I am overweight and told I need to lose diet before having a new knee, you could call it rationing.

We call it self responsibility for ones own health. Isnt that what you are always preaching, or do you have double standards ?   << Rhetorical question, no answers needed.


Self responsibility for ones own health can also include letting your body turn to shit, smoking, drinking, never exercising....but being willing to pay for the consequences yourself, not looking for a a redistribution of income to cover it for you.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:12:59 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

In the USA you go private or you get NOTHING.




Wrong.

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:44:43 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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~FR

Everyone is complaining about the costs, yet no one addresses the savings. Here are a few examples of how providing preventative care is cheaper than curative.

quote:

When children lose CHIP and Medicaid coverage and end up in emergency rooms for care, health care costs increase for all of us. A preventative care visit for juvenile diabetes costs $42 compared with an inpatient stay of $6,700. Chronic asthma can be managed in a doctor's office for $100, but a three-day hospitalization for a serious attack costs $7,300.


http://www.cdftexas.org/attached/press/AGN_Bentsen051907.html

Prevention can be divided into three parts: Things we do to avert disease (primary prevention), like vaccinations for children or the YMCA diabetes program mentioned in the article. Things we do to find and treat disease in its earliest stages (secondary prevention), like mammograms and colon cancer screenings. And things we do to avoid complications when people are already ill (tertiary prevention), like programs to help older people with multiple chronic conditions manage their care at home, like the PACE (Program of All-Inclusive Care for the Elderly) and similar initiatives. Dumping various interventions for various groups together and concluding prevention doesn't save money is just plain wrong.

Not all prevention programs work, many because they aren't grounded in science. Not all of them save money. All medical interventions -- including secondary and tertiary prevention -- cost money. Screening for common and costly diseases, like diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol, may actually raise spending in the short-term, because people who need treatment will get it. But over the long-term, that treatment is likely to avert even more costly complications, and thereby avoid higher spending

Many studies show well-designed prevention programs are cost-saving. For example, a significant reduction in total health care spending is linked to community-based lifestyle interventions (primary prevention). Research shows that savings range from a short-term return on investment of $1 for every $1 invested, rising to more than $6 over the longer term. An investment of $10 per person per year in community-based programs tackling physical inactivity, poor nutrition, and smoking could yield more than $16 billion in medical cost savings annually within 5 years. This is a remarkable return of $5.60 for every dollar spent, without considering the additional gains in worker productivity, reduced absenteeism at work and school, and enhanced quality of life.

The Breast and Cervical Cancer Early Detection Program funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is a great example of secondary prevention. It targets uninsured and underinsured women (18 years and older) at or below 250% of federal poverty level. Services include clinical breast examinations, mammograms, Pap tests, diagnostic testing for women whose screening outcome is abnormal, surgical consultation, and referrals to treatment. Last year, 301,209 women had mammographies who wouldn't otherwise have had care. Nearly 3,800 breast cancers were found. And 321,296 women got Pap tests. More 5,201 cervical cancers and high-grade precancerous lesions were found.

Worksite health promotion programs, too, are effective at both primary and secondary prevention. A systematic review of more than 50 studies meeting rigorous guidelines for review by the U.S. Task Force on Community Preventive Services found strong evidence of WHP program effectiveness in specific areas: reducing tobacco use, dietary fat consumption, high blood pressure, total serum cholesterol levels, and days absent from work due to illness or disability, as well as improvements in other general measures of worker productivity. At Citibank, for example, a comprehensive health management program showed a return on investment of $4.70 for every $1.00 in cost. A similar comprehensive program at Johnson & Johnson reduced health risks, including high cholesterol levels, cigarette smoking, and high blood pressure, and saved the company up to $8.8 million annually.

As far as tertiary prevention goes, there's evidence of effectiveness for that, too. Here's one of the best: For nearly 25 years, senior researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have implemented a series of large, randomized controlled trials with high-risk elders. Their studies have demonstrated that comprehensive tertiary prevention focused particularly on transitional care produces better health outcomes and significant cost savings. Their most recent research showed a 56% reduction in readmissions and 65% fewer hospital days for patients in transitional care. At the 12-month mark, average costs were $4,845 lower for these patients. If this model were scaled nationally with an investment of $25 billion over 10 years, savings could reach $100 billion over the same period.

....

Chronic disease resulted in more than $987 billion dollars in private spending -- most of it covered by private health insurance, which means higher premiums for everybody. Nearly all of every Medicare dollar -- 96 cents of each and every one, or more than $447 billion last year -- and 85 cents out of every dollar in Medicaid -- nearly $300 billion -- go to care for chronic disease, most of which is preventable. In one year, total, this amounts to approximately $1.7 trillion spent treating patients with one or more chronic diseases -- roughly 75 percent of all U.S. health care spending. This is essentially a hidden tax on every taxpayer in America. Anyone who cares about long-term health spending, particularly government health care spending, should support prevention. It's common sense.

Mr. Harsanyi's argument that we should avoid prevention because "the longer people hang around, the longer they utilize the health-care system" and drive up costs is hardly worth addressing. It's a bizarre concept that a civilized society would let people die of preventable causes. And it's economically inaccurate. Obese and chronically ill Americans tend to live shorter lives, but chronic diseases and obesity are linked to two-thirds of the growth in U.S. health spending since the mid-1980s. We're not cutting any corners in health care costs by allowing these people to meet the Grim Reaper earlier.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kenneth-thorpe/more-attacks-on-preventio_b_221625.html

This is because preventative care is so much cheaper than curative care.

http://www.usa-healthinsurance.com/aetna-cost.html

On a personal experience note...

Dialysis in 2001 cost $800 plus for a self pay run in Myrtle Beach. For those who dont know, Dialysis is typically a twice or three times a week run. It basically replaces the kidneys function. Most of my patients then, with the exception of two, ran three times a week. $2400 dollars a week. Does no one see the cost savings of blood pressure medication or diabetic screenings(which is why most were on dialysis), diet help, physician visits, ect, over paying that much money a month to run on a machine?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:49:43 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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Great post

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 9:54:34 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Are they as highly trained as a doctor?


You do know that the ama contols the number of doctors who graduate each year in the u.s.
Which is why the u.s. ranks 47 in the world in patient to doctor ratio.
This is one of the reasons that n.p exist. To act as the first line. Do you feel that an n.p would hesitate to call an m.d. if they felt that there was something beyond their level of competence?



Actually, the main reason for the poor doctor-to-patient ratio in the USA is that the health insurance industry makes it unprofitable to be a General Practitioner. The reimbursement rates are too low and filing the claims with the dozens of different insurance companies - each one with different policies - takes far too much time.

Many GPs are simply closing up shop.





Is it your position that the ama restricting the number of doctors has no affect?
What validation have you that "Many GPs are simply closing up shop."?
What do they do when they close up shop after spending 4 years in med school and 2 years of internship and 2 years of residency. Do they become greeters at wall mart?

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: 0bama0s top 10 healthcare lies - 8/6/2010 10:41:18 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Self responsibility for ones own health can also include letting your body turn to shit, smoking, drinking, never exercising....but being willing to pay for the consequences yourself, not looking for a a redistribution of income to cover it for you.


Yes indeed, thats my whole point, anyone can use it as we have all paid in via the income tax system at some point or other. Those on hard times STILL get to use the NHS. I am glad you are starting to take in the free lessons I am giving you. It`s okay though, you can thank me later.


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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