RE: When being smart can be a curse.

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LadyNTrainer -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 10:15:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys If you've submitted to him and have come to the point of trust do you not ever lay down your thoughts and just do without working out if his reasoning is good..or have you not worked out that as a whole to the man beforehand? I would kick my boy's butt if he failed to use his logic and deductive reasoning to warn me if I make a misstep, because he was being intellectually lazy and assuming that being the dominant in our relationship also gives me uber-expertise in every known craft and technical field as well as super-senses and total infallibility. It doesn't, and that is a remarkably stupid assumption. If he has relevant experience or just sharper eyes that day, I need to know what he spotted that I might have missed. I own his brain as well as his body, and he is expected to use it in my service to make my life better, not to be lazy and fail to use it. There are areas of situational deference when he knows we are in my field of expertise, and that is when he will obey without thinking or questioning. But everywhere else, he has a good brain and I expect him to be using it, and constantly alert for ways we can do things better. In the end it still comes down to what I decide, but it is very much up to him to stay alert, gather all possible information and present his informed opinion so that I can make the best possible decision. That's an important part of a smart slave's service to me.

leadership527 -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 10:50:15 AM)
Yeah, pretty much what LnT said. Honestly, Carol is not the kind of smart that does well on IQ tests. I personally see her as quite intelligent but coming out of a different door (damn those art types laughs). But here in our relationship, my relative IQ and hers are not what determine the amount of "second guessing" going on. Much as LnT said, there's a lot of factors that go into that... largely involved timing, the current emotional landscape, specific knowledge areas, etc. Carol's a bright woman and she's known me for a long time. She knows where I'm likely to be right and likely to have made mistakes or need help. If she thinks that I am wrong and I don't agree, that is easily solved. There are LOTS of places where both Carol and I don't bother to think things through. I'd like to believe that judgement and past experience is what drives that rather than blind obedience.

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 11:19:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys If you've submitted to him and have come to the point of trust do you not ever lay down your thoughts and just do without working out if his reasoning is good..or have you not worked out that as a whole to the man beforehand? I would kick my boy's butt if he failed to use his logic and deductive reasoning to warn me if I make a misstep, because he was being intellectually lazy and assuming that being the dominant in our relationship also gives me uber-expertise in every known craft and technical field as well as super-senses and total infallibility. It doesn't, and that is a remarkably stupid assumption. If he has relevant experience or just sharper eyes that day, I need to know what he spotted that I might have missed. I own his brain as well as his body, and he is expected to use it in my service to make my life better, not to be lazy and fail to use it. There are areas of situational deference when he knows we are in my field of expertise, and that is when he will obey without thinking or questioning. But everywhere else, he has a good brain and I expect him to be using it, and constantly alert for ways we can do things better. In the end it still comes down to what I decide, but it is very much up to him to stay alert, gather all possible information and present his informed opinion so that I can make the best possible decision. That's an important part of a smart slave's service to me. I like to figure out things for myself..I also like making my own mistakes. I don't see anything wrong with that. On the oher hand I don't mind a really sweet natured female saying.."What do you think about doing it this way"..If it's a field I'm not good in or know she is good in..Sure. If it's something I'd like to discuss with her then that's fine as well..Agin, if you read through the whole thing you might see that I believe in pretty much the same manner as everyone else..Discussion is great but not necessarily needed on everything. I enjoy what I wouldn't call micromanaging but would call a tighter leash than maybe you might...but that has little to nothing to do with what the topic is about. That kinda stuff works for some people no matter how many people have trouble understanding it.

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 11:22:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Yeah, pretty much what LnT said. Honestly, Carol is not the kind of smart that does well on IQ tests. I personally see her as quite intelligent but coming out of a different door (damn those art types laughs). But here in our relationship, my relative IQ and hers are not what determine the amount of "second guessing" going on. Much as LnT said, there's a lot of factors that go into that... largely involved timing, the current emotional landscape, specific knowledge areas, etc. Carol's a bright woman and she's known me for a long time. She knows where I'm likely to be right and likely to have made mistakes or need help. If she thinks that I am wrong and I don't agree, that is easily solved. There are LOTS of places where both Carol and I don't bother to think things through. I'd like to believe that judgement and past experience is what drives that rather than blind obedience. I'm still going to disagree with some of what you've said but I respect that you are the one who knows your relationship better than I of course. I just don't agree that it's not a possibility that there might be a correlation

laurell3 -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 11:37:07 AM)
Seven pages later...are you going to tell us the factual context of the question as you had said previously?

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 11:52:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Seven pages later...are you going to tell us the factual context of the question as you had said previously? I would but I don't think your interested in that :>...Seven pages and two comments from you I believe..One about the post which was on point I think and one about cock sizes [:D] By the way if you've been paying attention...This had nothing to do with facts but if your referring to the comment I made earlier about me telling you all what sparked the post..I've already have twice. Maybe you missed that, Laurell.

laurell3 -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 12:09:08 PM)
Yeah I probably did. I'll look again. I have been busy and my posting/reading time on CM is limited....sorry Icarys! btw: cock size is always relevant! If someone says differently, they're only being nice. [8D]

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 2:08:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Yeah I probably did. I'll look again. I have been busy and my posting/reading time on CM is limited....sorry Icarys! btw: cock size is always relevant! If someone says differently, they're only being nice. [8D] No problem. I've been told I'm the worlds biggest prick..Does that count somehow?

CaringandReal -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 3:05:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: interlocutor You are confused, intelligence does not cause one to over think, obsession does. Intelligence does not cause one to second guess, self doubt does. Intelligence does not cause one to fear letting go, insecurity does. An intelligent person may be obsessive, insecure, and full of self doubt, but they do not do these things BECAUSE they are intelligent. I agree with this, if you limit the "intelligence does not cause" statement to the traits you have described. It's much harder, I think, to disentangle intelligence from hubris (or at least the part of hubris where someone feels that they are always or almost always right because they are seldom around people as smart or smarter than them). As is demonstrated frequently, hubris in a submissive can cause lots of rocky times in a relationship or, if the individual is single, retard their finding an appropriate mate who would make them extremely happy. It isn't impossible to disentangle hubris from brainpower, but it is quite hard I think, because, unlike insecurity, obsession, or fear, one's intelligence is often very intimately tied to self-image, and so naturally people don't want to let go it, even if they have some inkling that doing so would make them happier and more fulfilled in a submissive role. For those that would be willing to consider letting go of a close identification with their intelligence, a strong sense of prioritization (realizing that one's happiness with one's master is far more important than what one's head does) would seem essential. Learning to treat one's brain as a machine, or a tool to be used if and when your master/mistress wants it to be used (otherwise it should remain on idle) also helps a bit. Hypnotism, conditioning, or training of the bimbo variety can help as well. But I wonder how many smart submissives would be willing to undergo bimbo training (what is the male equivelent? bimboi?) if they knew it would actually be effective? Or even take a pill that noticably lowers intelligence (I know, it comes in liquid form, but I'm imagining something that doesn't have other side effects). Again, once you break the link between intelligence and identity (i.e., experience that what you are as separate from what or how you think), dumbing down or setting the brain on idle becomes relatively painless.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 4:40:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I like to figure out things for myself..I also like making my own mistakes. I don't see anything wrong with that. That's fine if it's your choice, but if I have a submissive who is skilled in building things, and I am at the hardware store preparing to buy the materials I need for a project, I am going to use his expertise and require him to tell me whether I have made a cost effective and performance effective choice of materials. I could decide to attach my ego to being right and tell him to shut up, I'll make my own mistakes, but a) I'm not going to learn how to do it any better if I am too arrogant to accept instruction and b) it's going to cost me more money and could end poorly. It's about using the resources I have available to me, much like a skilled boss with her employees. A good manager may not have the expertise herself to do the coding for a particular software project, but if she is smart and a good manager, she will tap the resources available and use the expertise of her underlings to get the job done. Also, she will listen very carefully to what the coders who work for her say is feasible and cost effective before making management and marketing decisions. That's the difference between a good manager and a lousy one who will waste money and resources. I am not delusional or egotistical enough to believe that my being the dominant in my poly family gives me more expertise than my submissive partners in every conceivable field of knowledge or ability. They have their own fields of expertise, and not using them for what they do best strikes me as wasteful and silly. I don't like making mistakes. Measure twice, cut once, use all the resources you have to make sure it comes out right. That's pretty much my take on things. Your mileage may vary, if independence and doing it your way is more important to you. To me, results are more important, so personally I'd take instruction from a singing pig or a flying monkey if I thought the critter seriously knew what he was doing. Gender and sexual/Ds orientation is not relevant to me when it comes to processing useful information. If I happen to own a smart submissive with expertise, I will happily use it and learn from it. quote: That kinda stuff works for some people no matter how many people have trouble understanding it. Your mileage may vary. Tis no big deal, just different styles of dominance and ownership. I see my role as head of household to manage our resources wisely, including our information and skill resources. D/s tends to take a back seat to practical considerations, so if I think one of my collared submissives is better qualified to be responsible for something that needs doing, then the smartest thing I can do is to delegate that job to him and leave him in charge of it completely. I make the decision as to what the end result needs to be, and it's entirely on him to decide on the specifics of how it gets done. There may be very little useful input I can provide as a non-expert, except to give the "bigger picture" order of what must be accomplished and by what deadline. I wouldn't be with either of my partners if I did not seriously respect their intelligence and competence. I also trust them to work hard to please me and to make choices that are best for the poly family as a whole. So this system works for us. It may work differently for you; there really is no one right way to run D/s relationships.

Aynne88 -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 6:26:33 PM)
Fast Reply~ My man is definitely not as formally educated as I am, nor is he as intellectual. And.....so what.... He is by far more successful in the terms that we use to define success (financially) and he is brilliant in business as well as dealing with people. I would never be such an ass to presume that I could outsmart him nor would I find it amusing or cute to try to. Manipulation is a game for insecure people I think, and intellect? Well, define it as you will, much like an IQ score, it has way too many variables to discern an accurate definition. The only curse being smart gets you is thinking you are too smart for your own good. If I were so arrogant that I presumed he was not "smart enough" for me due to the differences in our education or IQ level, I would have missed out on the most fabulous man I have ever met. Besides, I like that raw power sometimes that only comes with a gritty man that earned it the hard way and no amount of IQ or intellect can amass the thrill of being that guy. Of course, being the girl with "that guy" doesn't suck either, and if he needs me to read him some Rimbaud or Baudelaire, or explain my theories on Machiavelli some dark night, well..I will happily oblige. [;)].

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 7:51:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I like to figure out things for myself..I also like making my own mistakes. I don't see anything wrong with that. That's fine if it's your choice, but if I have a submissive who is skilled in building things, and I am at the hardware store preparing to buy the materials I need for a project, I am going to use his expertise and require him to tell me whether I have made a cost effective and performance effective choice of materials. I could decide to attach my ego to being right and tell him to shut up, I'll make my own mistakes, but a) I'm not going to learn how to do it any better if I am too arrogant to accept instruction and b) it's going to cost me more money and could end poorly. It's about using the resources I have available to me, much like a skilled boss with her employees. A good manager may not have the expertise herself to do the coding for a particular software project, but if she is smart and a good manager, she will tap the resources available and use the expertise of her underlings to get the job done. Also, she will listen very carefully to what the coders who work for her say is feasible and cost effective before making management and marketing decisions. That's the difference between a good manager and a lousy one who will waste money and resources. I am not delusional or egotistical enough to believe that my being the dominant in my poly family gives me more expertise than my submissive partners in every conceivable field of knowledge or ability. They have their own fields of expertise, and not using them for what they do best strikes me as wasteful and silly. I don't like making mistakes. Measure twice, cut once, use all the resources you have to make sure it comes out right. That's pretty much my take on things. Your mileage may vary, if independence and doing it your way is more important to you. To me, results are more important, so personally I'd take instruction from a singing pig or a flying monkey if I thought the critter seriously knew what he was doing. Gender and sexual/Ds orientation is not relevant to me when it comes to processing useful information. If I happen to own a smart submissive with expertise, I will happily use it and learn from it. quote: That kinda stuff works for some people no matter how many people have trouble understanding it. Your mileage may vary. Tis no big deal, just different styles of dominance and ownership. I see my role as head of household to manage our resources wisely, including our information and skill resources. D/s tends to take a back seat to practical considerations, so if I think one of my collared submissives is better qualified to be responsible for something that needs doing, then the smartest thing I can do is to delegate that job to him and leave him in charge of it completely. I make the decision as to what the end result needs to be, and it's entirely on him to decide on the specifics of how it gets done. There may be very little useful input I can provide as a non-expert, except to give the "bigger picture" order of what must be accomplished and by what deadline. I wouldn't be with either of my partners if I did not seriously respect their intelligence and competence. I also trust them to work hard to please me and to make choices that are best for the poly family as a whole. So this system works for us. It may work differently for you; there really is no one right way to run D/s relationships. I don't think we would do things much different than one another. I know where my skill-sets are and don't mind stepping outside of them to learn something new but if there is someone with me that has the skills already..I will of course take advantage of that. One major skill I have is figuring things out..Problem solving..and I enjoy it immensely, this is why I like doing things myself. That doesn't spill over into every single thing I come up against though, There are some things I have little interest in doing much like I'm sure all of us do, about certain things. There would be no way for me to explain the percentage of what I would delegate and what I would choose to take on myself. Suffice to say, I get about as much pleasure from the delegating as I do in doing myself if you know what I mean...Just differently. Although interesting I don't believe this is exactly on topic though.

Icarys -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 8:01:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Fast Reply~ My man is definitely not as formally educated as I am, nor is he as intellectual. And.....so what.... He is by far more successful in the terms that we use to define success (financially) and he is brilliant in business as well as dealing with people. I would never be such an ass to presume that I could outsmart him nor would I find it amusing or cute to try to. Manipulation is a game for insecure people I think, and intellect? Well, define it as you will, much like an IQ score, it has way too many variables to discern an accurate definition. The only curse being smart gets you is thinking you are too smart for your own good. If I were so arrogant that I presumed he was not "smart enough" for me due to the differences in our education or IQ level, I would have missed out on the most fabulous man I have ever met. Besides, I like that raw power sometimes that only comes with a gritty man that earned it the hard way and no amount of IQ or intellect can amass the thrill of being that guy. Of course, being the girl with "that guy" doesn't suck either, and if he needs me to read him some Rimbaud or Baudelaire, or explain my theories on Machiavelli some dark night, well..I will happily oblige. [;)]. I'm similar I'm sure..High School is the only Schooling I've had. Everything in all of my businesses has been self-taught. I did get informal training as a kid in my families business starting at the age of 11..Where I sold, took money, worked on vehicles, and ran the store pretty much the entire week as the rest of the family went out to get stock all at the age of 11 with my siblings starting even earlier..so I have a respect for those that make their own way in life I guess. Living life in general can be some of the best schooling one could ever get if people are receptive to the lessons it has to teach. Ya know I really love hearing you talk about your relationship...sincerely.

Aswad -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/10/2010 8:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble First, I don't rely just on my intellect. I involve my gut and my heart as well. Intelligent life detected. Planetary sterilization protocol aborted. [sm=abducted.gif] This is, I have found, is the difference between intelligence and mere intellectual strength. quote: To me, it's a defense mechanism of an insecure dominant. If he reasoning is sound, it can withstand any thoughts I may have on it. Quite so. Though, presentation matters. (Not that I'm implying one exists in your relationship.) Health, al-Aswad.

ranja -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/11/2010 2:00:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Fast Reply~ I would never be such an ass to presume that I could outsmart him nor would I find it amusing or cute to try to. Manipulation is a game for insecure people I think, I am of a different opinion... i think manipulation is totally necessary and it is incredibly helpful if one is smart enough to pull it off without the other person knowing they have been outsmarted... sometimes i am insecure though... but then i don't really manipulate, because then it is bound to end in tears

jujubeeMB -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/11/2010 3:10:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I used to think the same as you...until I met someone who was able to bring me to that place better than anyone else ever did. And he is not as smart as me. But that is part of the point. Someone can get into your submissive head without having the brilliance you think you need for the rest of the relationship. At least that is what surprisingly happened with me. Sometimes someone is able to listen enough to understand what buttons to push...even though they might not be as quick thinking as you or be able to discuss literature. So, I am more concerned these days with EMOTIONAL intelligence....for me that is much more important than a degree or education. That's why I pointed out that I'm inter- and intra-personally intelligent. I actually mean emotional intelligence combined with a razor sharp intellect, which is something that a lot of people don't properly acknowledge as intelligence - they're too busy throwing little factoids around and insisting if you don't know Einstein and Freud, you're not that smart. But for me, intelligence has to do with both analytical acuteness and ability to understand others and oneself. Degrees and education have nothing to do with it, though there is a correlation between those who seek out education and those who are more curious and want to learn. Money and situation has been known to prevent the heck out of a good education, however, and I'm not a jerk about those kinds of things. But yes, he has to be able to out think me, and I don't mean at chess [:)]

Andalusite -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/11/2010 6:43:13 PM)
I sometimes over-think or over-analyse a situation, whether or not it's about something to do with a relationship. I agree it can sometimes be detrimental, but I don't think that intelligence is the problem, more getting too narrowly focused. Actually, one thing I love about submission and bottoming hard is that it can make my mind go blank, and I stop thinking at all and just relax and be, in the moment. My former Master and my previous Dominant both thought it was terribly cute when I went from being articulate to struggling with one-syllable words.

Asub4fun -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/22/2010 1:37:02 PM)
I struggle with this constantly in this lifestyle. I am smart. I know I am smart. The degrees hanging on my wall might back my statement but honestly, I went to grad school with some very dumb people, so personally, that expensive little framed piece of paper is just that, paper. I am also a very dominant person, but sexually I crave being submissive and I understand that is common. I require a very naturally dominant person. Not because I am more into S/M but because it is a mental challenge for me. To me, my submissiveness it entirely a battle within. The battle of can and will. Can I do what He asks? Of course I can, but, will I do it? There is my challenge, and I think (although I could be wrong) that this is the question/remark Icarys is relaying. Can a Dom have a submissive who get in their own way because of their intellegence and rationality? I have to constantly tell myself to just let go. As a smart and dominant woman it is my nature to not let someone best me, however, sexually I have no desire to be dominant yet my inner voice screams at me to take over everytime I let Him control me. My former Master knew this about me and he suggested we jointly get a sub and that I Domme her, however, I do not desire that. He says I would make a great Domme. I know I would be a good Domme, I just don't want it. I don't get off on that. I also think he tried to push me that way as a way of making him feel better for not being able to Dom me like I want. It's not him, it's me, I know this. In this lifestyle being smart is a curse. I wish I could just be that sad looking little doe eyed girl looking up at her Master knowing I have no chance against Him, rather than playing that doe eyed girl looking up at Him because that is what He wants even though my inner voice is thinking "I could over come you in a second, but I'll fake this for you". Sadly because of this I get bored easily. My goal is to find a Master who truly makes me feel dominated. It is not a physical dominance that will cure me, in fcat I am not attracted to overly sadistic Doms, it is more intellectual. Dominance, much like confidence, has an aura and the degree of that aura varies by person and, in my opinion, is not something you develope, it just is. I don't generally share the above because when I state things like this I then receive tons of emails from Doms who want to prove to me they can break me. Much like telling a man you have never had an orgasam (not my case, just an example) all they hear is a "challenge" and even if they do not fit what you are looking for, they want a shot. It is not a matter of breaking me so please, please, unless you truly fit what I am looking for (as descibed in my profile) do not contact me. I just wanted to comment on the original poster's question from the view of a smart submissive.

mstrjx -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/22/2010 2:54:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asub4fun I don't generally share the above because when I state things like this I then receive tons of emails from Doms who want to prove to me they can break me. There are clever dominants out there, some might even be clever enough. I'd toss myself into that category and be tempted myself but I don't have that 'thick 7"' qualification that I found when I surreptitiously perved your profile. So all I can offer is something to ponder the next time you find at least a dolt that you're attracted to in all other ways. I know you don't want to consider slavery an option, but one of the tenets to slavery that carries over reasonably well to submission is the concept of 'surrender'. What if a portion of that 'surrender' was not stripped of you by someone superior on all levels including intellect, but something that was offered without comment. Be clever enough for both of you. He wouldn't need to 'keep you in line' (so to speak) if you just didn't take it upon yourself to put YOURSELF in the proper headspace rather than someone taking you there. If you say you can't, then the only reason why that would be is that you wouldn't allow it. If that were the case, then you are creating your own psychological barrier. In my opinion. Jeff

Asub4fun -> RE: When being smart can be a curse. (8/22/2010 6:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx He wouldn't need to 'keep you in line' (so to speak) if you just didn't take it upon yourself to put YOURSELF in the proper headspace rather than someone taking you there. If you say you can't, then the only reason why that would be is that you wouldn't allow it. If that were the case, then you are creating your own psychological barrier. Jeff, I know I create my own barrier, it was a point I now think I was not very clear on in my original post. My mind is my barrier because to be submissive I have to release control and in every part of my life away from sex I keep control, so letting go is all my issue because I am trained both in education and my upbringing against it. Over the years I have met with a few Doms and every one of them turns out the same. That being the case, it must be me. I am human, I have faults, and I own and accept them and try to learn from them. I follow rules well, in fact I can only recall one time ever being punished. As an overachiever I hate doing something wrong so I work hard to do as I am told. So it is not that I need them to "keep me in line". The problem I have is that away from play they (former Doms) see my dominance which I think is what leads to them becoming soft on me when we play. After awhile I will start to get bored so I test them to see if they will follow through with a punishment or threat only to find they don't. At that point I know we are done because like a teenager with parents who don't follow through on groundings, I will run free at that point knowing I won't get in trouble so I have to end it because there is no recovering from that with me. I am not looking for punishment, I am just testing my boundries. I have had (non sexual) interactions in my everyday life with men who just exude confidence and dominance yet they are not arrogant (my dream Dom really) and I know if the situation was one of a sexual nature I would NEVER test my boundries with them because I know they would punish me swiftly without hesitation. Those qualities, in my opinion, are not something you can learn, they are just the nature of that man and it is that man that I seek. As for the 7 & thick request, for reasons unknown to me I continue to find Doms who are much smaller than "average" and of all of the things I crave, very hard pounding penetration is what I love, which I have yet to find in "smaller" partners, hence the 7 & thick request. I figure I might as well throw it all out there. I am certain I will not find an exact match but a girl can dream right? Thank you for the reply and I totally agree with you that the problem is with me, not them. I am continually learning about this lifestyle and about myself, and appreciate all feed back.

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