RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post

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CreativeDominant -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 7:29:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania She may not be his responsibility. Holly, but she has the right to walk away from someone who has such an inhumane attitude too. Soooooo: she is NOT his responsibility but because he did not go as far as many of us would have...I seem to recall that he did at least make some effort to care for her...that makes him inhumane? she has the right to walk away from something in which she shares irresponsibility and forethought and blame him because it was due to his inhumanity or his incompatibility with her? How about him walking away from her unreasonable expectations? How about him walking away from someone who thinks she should have it all...the right to play as she wants with someone other than him without consideration of the possible outcomes and then return to him when she's all spacey and unable to care for herself? Again, you are one of those laying it ALL off on him while giving token consideration to the truth of her responsibility in this and no consideration to the entire situation. I said it in earlier posts...~taking my halo back from Wyld for a minute [:)]~...I would have cared for her. I accept making sure that my partner is O.K. in any situation as my responsibility and my obligation whenever I take on a partner. That's me. As I also stated earlier, I find his actions not quite up to par BUT I can also understand his feelings in this situation, as I am honest enough to admit that I've experienced a form of all those feelings mentioned here myself . Does it make me horrible and inhuman to experience those? I don't think so. On the contrary, I think it makes me very human. I think NO care given on his part...or mine... would have taken away from his/my humanity. His/mine/anybody else's ability to get past those feelings and do something for our partners is what makes us humane. But her getting to dictate, to expect the level at which it should be given in a NEW and MORE INTENSE circumstance? I don't think so... I still think that one of the biggest problems here is that this couple failed to communicate with each other AND she failed to look ahead. Wyld stated that this had not happened to the OP before...that may be true but I find it hard to believe that if the poster is even a semi-regular reader of these threads that she has not read of subspace before and how it can often occur quite unexpectedly. quote: The thread seemed to be about her mental processes in figuring out whether to stay or go. It is not about responsibility or even right and wrong. It is about whether or not she will continue in a relationship. She has as much responsibility to remain in an unfulfilling relationship as he had to care for her.... As you stated, her first responsibility is to herself, she should exercise that by finding a compatible partner. *?????* Her mental processes in figuring out whether to stay or go are a *direct result* of consideration of his/her responses, his/her responsibilities, his/her obligations, his/her rightness and/or wrongness that evening. Unfulfillment arises out of something, it does not arise out of nothingness. While she has ZERO responsibility to remain in an unfulfilling relationship, she has ALL the responsibility to honestly assess what led to that unfulfillment. Unless she is very self-centered, she should not lay all the responsibility on his doorstep. If her compatibility is met only by someone who can give her everything she wants AS she wants it, when she wants it, with no consideration being given to the other person's human foibles and imperfections, then I wish her good luck in finding someone that perfect.

sirsholly -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 8:10:11 AM)
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juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 8:13:49 AM)
quote: Soooooo: she is NOT his responsibility but because he did not go as far as many of us would have...I seem to recall that he did at least make some effort to care for her...that makes him inhumane? She used the word "humane".... I was responding to her with the opposite word, nothing more.... quote: While she has ZERO responsibility to remain in an unfulfilling relationship, she has ALL the responsibility to honestly assess what led to that unfulfillment. Unless she is very self-centered, she should not lay all the responsibility on his doorstep. If her compatibility is met only by someone who can give her everything she wants AS she wants it, when she wants it, with no consideration being given to the other person's human foibles and imperfections, then I wish her good luck in finding someone that perfect. There are plenty of foibles out there that I would not leave someone over. There are some I would. It depends on the foible. It was not his lack of care for her that has her the most upset, it is his callous attitude the next day on top of his lack of care. Personally, I have boundaries. Boundaries keep me healthy and happy. I respect other people's boundaries. If my boundaries and their boundaries are such that we are incompatible then it is time to move on. Someone being callous to me the way she described is a boundary for me. I might not end it with him if I were a poly person like she is, but he would never top me again. In my situation, I am a monogamist, and my trust would be shattered. There are many ways a man can disappoint me and I wouldn't leave, subspace and aftercare is not one of those places. I become more vulnerable at that time than at any other and it is more intimate to me than the sex act. So, if a dominant ignored my needs at that time, they get no second chances. I communicate my needs very clearly before entering a relationship because of this

juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 8:29:22 AM)
quote: Now, it would certainly have been the humane thing to do on his part to give her the care she required. I would have. Most others would have cared for her as well. His behavior sounds like anger, and frankly i do not blame him for feeling that way. Just quoted to show what my use of "inhumane" stemmed from.....

sirsholly -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 10:46:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Now, it would certainly have been the humane thing to do on his part to give her the care she required. I would have. Most others would have cared for her as well. His behavior sounds like anger, and frankly i do not blame him for feeling that way. Just quoted to show what my use of "inhumane" stemmed from..... You used the term on your own, not as a direct quote from me. In the future please accept responsibility for what you post.

juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 11:02:17 AM)
Oh holly, please retract your claws and stop hating on me.... geesh... what are you, cat lady?

sirsholly -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 11:11:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Oh holly, please retract your claws and stop hating on me.... geesh... what are you, cat lady? not at all, Julia...but you have a tendency to try to blame others when your posts are challenged. You will not do it with me. If you care to continue this, please do it by cmail. Apologies for the highjack, everyone.

WyldHrt -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 11:23:22 AM)
quote: I still think that one of the biggest problems here is that this couple failed to communicate with each other AND she failed to look ahead. Wyld stated that this had not happened to the OP before...that may be true but I find it hard to believe that if the poster is even a semi-regular reader of these threads that she has not read of subspace before and how it can often occur quite unexpectedly. Much as I hate to do it, I sort of have to disagree here, CD. There are 2 female s-types that stated on page 1 of this very thread that they don't go into subspace. Not that they haven't spaced yet, that they don't. I think either one would probably be quite surprised if it happened to them, particularly with a Top that they were accustomed to playing with. JMHO can I have the halo back now, pleeeease? [;)]

CreativeDominant -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 12:32:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Soooooo: she is NOT his responsibility but because he did not go as far as many of us would have...I seem to recall that he did at least make some effort to care for her...that makes him inhumane? She used the word "humane".... I was responding to her with the opposite word, nothing more.... quote: While she has ZERO responsibility to remain in an unfulfilling relationship, she has ALL the responsibility to honestly assess what led to that unfulfillment. Unless she is very self-centered, she should not lay all the responsibility on his doorstep. If her compatibility is met only by someone who can give her everything she wants AS she wants it, when she wants it, with no consideration being given to the other person's human foibles and imperfections, then I wish her good luck in finding someone that perfect. There are plenty of foibles out there that I would not leave someone over. There are some I would. It depends on the foible. It was not his lack of care for her that has her the most upset, it is his callous attitude the next day on top of his lack of care. Personally, I have boundaries. Boundaries keep me healthy and happy. I respect other people's boundaries. If my boundaries and their boundaries are such that we are incompatible then it is time to move on. Someone being callous to me the way she described is a boundary for me. I might not end it with him if I were a poly person like she is, but he would never top me again. In my situation, I am a monogamist, and my trust would be shattered. There are many ways a man can disappoint me and I wouldn't leave, subspace and aftercare is not one of those places. I become more vulnerable at that time than at any other and it is more intimate to me than the sex act. So, if a dominant ignored my needs at that time, they get no second chances. I communicate my needs very clearly BEFORE entering a relationship because of this YOU communicate your needs because of your vulnerability and because of your knowledge of self. you make it clear BEFORE entering a relationship what those needs are. I made bold the words above because of that thought... Nowhere in her post does she make it clear that she ever communicated to him what her needs were when she entered subspace. OH wait...she'd never been in subspace before so she had no idea of the level of aftercare she would need. Of course, neither did he... Nowhere in her post does she make it clear that she'd had a full discussion of what she feels she had a right to expect from her dominant...oh wait, he WASN'T her dominant. He was her boyfriend (and occasional topping partner)...her POLY boyfriend who'd made plans with his OTHER girlfriend that evening. Finally...if you'd NEVER made clear to him what your expectations were, if you'd never bothered to clear coming to him for aftercare when you were through even though you knew he was going to be occupied that evening, if you'd not bothered to find out what subspace might do to you if you accidentally entered it, if you'd not discussed with your play partners what your "primary" partner plans were for the evening and what to do if you DID enter subspace, would you STILL feel that you had a right to expect him to "switch" over from enjoying his rest, his reflections on his night with his other partner to caring foe you in whatever fashion you dictated...that you felt was proper...though neither of you had any experience with it? Would you still feel that somehow, he was still the sole person who'd been an ass in this matter? His callousness(?) the next day may simply be his expression of his anger and his feelings.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 12:50:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: I still think that one of the biggest problems here is that this couple failed to communicate with each other AND she failed to look ahead. Wyld stated that this had not happened to the OP before...that may be true but I find it hard to believe that if the poster is even a semi-regular reader of these threads that she has not read of subspace before and how it can often occur quite unexpectedly. Much as I hate to do it, I sort of have to disagree here, CD. Utterly shocked look here...shocked, I tell ya. quote: There are 2 female s-types that stated on page 1 of this very thread that they don't go into subspace. Not that they haven't spaced yet, that they don't. I think either one would probably be quite surprised if it happened to them, particularly with a Top that they were accustomed to playing with. JMHO And I would tell them the same thing I was taught a long time ago by my mother and again later in the service and then in college preparing for a career in healthcare..."Hope for the best BUT be prepared for ANY outcome...don't get surprised, if you can help it, especially if that surprise can bite you in the ass". quote: can I have the halo back now, pleeeease? [;)] you want to DISAGREE with ME...ME...and then ask for the halo back? MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno. Gonna have to do better....[8D]

NorthernGent -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 1:51:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent No. He doesn't have any 'responsibility to deal with things'. You wanted to go - your choice. You wanted to enjoy yourself - your choice. So why on earth do you think he has an obligation to 'cuddle you' or get you a drink of water? I think you got off lightly....because I wouldn't have given you a drink of water...I'd have fuckin' drowned you on the basis of your ill-conceived expectations. Nothing worse than a horrible spoilt bitch who wants the freedom to trapse round the place and then expects comfort and security when it suits. Did you happen to miss the part about the reason why he did not want to go with her: He wanted to spend alone time with his other lover? edit: clarity If I was in that set up.....I'd be saying...right...you go and enjoy yourself and I'll help myself here...see you in a couple of days time.....if that is their relationship then she knows the rules......and the rules aren't: "tell you what...I'll go and get my hips knocked in and then I'll come to you.....on the same night.....for comfort"...fuck off man....what? I'm waiting for you coming back from a session so I can make sure you're all right? If you're big enough to run round putting yourself on offer......then you're big enough to keep a lid on it.......she's very lucky she even got through the door..... And friends? She was friendly a couple of minutes back with a couple of blokes in a club....they're her friends who can carry her up the stairs and into bed....or is her problem that they fucked her off after using her and she didn't like it....and one more man giving her the cold shoulder was too much to bear? The moral of the story is don't get yourself into something that you can't handle.

frazzle -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 2:12:03 PM)
I seriously wonder about your reading comprehension skills.

WyldHrt -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 2:29:36 PM)
quote: If I was in that set up.....I'd be saying...right...you go and enjoy yourself and I'll help myself here...see you in a couple of days time.....if that is their relationship then she knows the rules......and the rules aren't: "tell you what...I'll go and get my hips knocked in and then I'll come to you.....on the same night.....for comfort"...fuck off man....what? I'm waiting for you coming back from a session so I can make sure you're all right? If you're big enough to run round putting yourself on offer......then you're big enough to keep a lid on it.......she's very lucky she even got through the door..... And friends? She was friendly a couple of minutes back with a couple of blokes in a club....they're her friends who can carry her up the stairs and into bed....or is her problem that they fucked her off after using her and she didn't like it....and one more man giving her the cold shoulder was too much to bear? The moral of the story is don't get yourself into something that you can't handle. Ummm... what?? Did you actually read the thread at all? Seriously, NG, geez. She's lucky that she got through the door of the hotel room that she paid for at the event they were all attending? Really? A couple of blokes in a club? I'm sure the close female friend topping her would be very surprised to learn that she is a 'bloke', and there was no club. Seriously, why answer a thread when you apparently didn't even read the OP. [8\|]

angelikaJ -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 2:32:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent No. He doesn't have any 'responsibility to deal with things'. You wanted to go - your choice. You wanted to enjoy yourself - your choice. So why on earth do you think he has an obligation to 'cuddle you' or get you a drink of water? I think you got off lightly....because I wouldn't have given you a drink of water...I'd have fuckin' drowned you on the basis of your ill-conceived expectations. Nothing worse than a horrible spoilt bitch who wants the freedom to trapse round the place and then expects comfort and security when it suits. Did you happen to miss the part about the reason why he did not want to go with her: He wanted to spend alone time with his other lover? edit: clarity If I was in that set up.....I'd be saying...right...you go and enjoy yourself and I'll help myself here...see you in a couple of days time.....if that is their relationship then she knows the rules......and the rules aren't: "tell you what...I'll go and get my hips knocked in and then I'll come to you.....on the same night.....for comfort"...fuck off man....what? I'm waiting for you coming back from a session so I can make sure you're all right? If you're big enough to run round putting yourself on offer......then you're big enough to keep a lid on it.......she's very lucky she even got through the door..... And friends? She was friendly a couple of minutes back with a couple of blokes in a club....they're her friends who can carry her up the stairs and into bed....or is her problem that they fucked her off after using her and she didn't like it....and one more man giving her the cold shoulder was too much to bear? The moral of the story is don't get yourself into something that you can't handle. Since you obviously haven't followed the thread, how can you claim to have any knowledge of what the rules of their specific relationship are? You can't even figure out that the bloke who topped her was a gal.

NorthernGent -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 3:14:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: If I was in that set up.....I'd be saying...right...you go and enjoy yourself and I'll help myself here...see you in a couple of days time.....if that is their relationship then she knows the rules......and the rules aren't: "tell you what...I'll go and get my hips knocked in and then I'll come to you.....on the same night.....for comfort"...fuck off man....what? I'm waiting for you coming back from a session so I can make sure you're all right? If you're big enough to run round putting yourself on offer......then you're big enough to keep a lid on it.......she's very lucky she even got through the door..... And friends? She was friendly a couple of minutes back with a couple of blokes in a club....they're her friends who can carry her up the stairs and into bed....or is her problem that they fucked her off after using her and she didn't like it....and one more man giving her the cold shoulder was too much to bear? The moral of the story is don't get yourself into something that you can't handle. Ummm... what?? Did you actually read the thread at all? Seriously, NG, geez. She's lucky that she got through the door of the hotel room that she paid for at the event they were all attending? Really? A couple of blokes in a club? I'm sure the close female friend topping her would be very surprised to learn that she is a 'bloke', and there was no club. Seriously, why answer a thread when you apparently didn't even read the OP. [8\|] A female friend and 'another friend'.... But surely you take the point....big enough to put yourself on offer then big enough to handle the consequences..... What is it? Damsel in distress? Stay at home out of harm's way then.

nephandi -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 4:29:36 PM)
Greetings I am sorry I have not read the whole nine pages thread before answering. I am replying only to the original post. I am not a Dom but if I was and I said I did not want to play that night but my partner wanted to play with someone else then I might get a bit annoyed to if my partner came stumbling in through the door in the middle of the night demanding love, attention, aftercare, cuddles and cookies when I just wanted to sleep. There are two sides to this, you should have spoken with you Dom about your expectations of him when you went out to play with others. I to would have expected the Dom actually playing with my partner to provide aftercare. Now I think your Dom acted a bit cold, however in a way he is right, you went out and engaged in hard play of your own free will, just like if you would have gotten out to get drunk. Yes the reaction was stronger this time, but you should expect some sort of reaction to hard play and I do think it was the responsibility of those playing with you to give you aftercare, not your boyfriend who was not involved in the scene. That being said from your description he did act in an insensitive way, and I would be pissed, but giving him the boot pissed no. Next time you should explain to him when asking if it is okey that you go play that you expect aftercare from him. Also for the conversation the morning after, now are you sure he did not just sound extra insensitive because you demanded that he had done something wrong with not providing you aftercare. Often when pepole feel that they are treated unfairly they will react with anger and say things they do not really mean. Now I would give it a few days then speak with your boyfriend in an non accusing way explain how you feel. Another thing, why is none of this rigeous anger of yours directed at your friends that just dropped you off? What if your boyfriend had been out, what if he had decided that he had the night to himself and had gotten drunk? It is completely irresponsible to drop a helpless person of just thinking they will be taken care of, they should not have left until they had spoken with your boyfriend and he had accepted responsibility for you. I call that neglect, neglect of the responsibility they took when they decided to Top you. I wish you well

marie2 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 4:51:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent big enough to put yourself on offer then big enough to handle the consequences..... What is it? Damsel in distress? Stay at home out of harm's way then. Brrr

DesFIP -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 5:57:15 PM)
I'm not sure why she needed to ask him again if he was available to help her should she need it that night when he had already promised her that he would be there for her whenever she needed him. He made those promises and she, foolish op, believed him. He shouldn't have made those promises because he knew he wasn't available to be depended on. He did so to get the relationship he wanted without thinking about the relationship she had said she wanted. I don't know about you CD, but when someone promises me that, to be my partner, love me and protect me, be there for me when I need him, I don't normally answer with "I don't believe you. Will you be there if I have a virus and am puking my brains up? Will you be there if my father dies and I'm too distraught to drive the two hours? Will you be there if I have a car accident due to me not having replaced my tires this week, but pushing it off to next?" I take people at their word. If they don't keep it, then the consequences can well be the ending of the relationship or me taking back all the trust I had extended them. I don't cross examine someone to see if they meant what they said. I believe them as I expect to be believed.

nephandi -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 7:49:18 PM)
Greetings I am going to tell a little story. A few years ago I and Aswad had a female friend with a severe allergy to fruit, she has since moved away from our home city but at the time we spent allot of time with her and her boyfriend. Now me and Aswad are not rich, going out to eat is a rare treat but once while visiting our two friends we had planned to go out eating afterwards. Now suddenly our friend invited herself to go with us. I told her that she should not go as they did serve fruit at the restaurant, but no she was going, not wanting to be rude we let her. Now once at the restaurant she asked the woman running it if she could get guaranteed fruit free food. The lady at the restaurant said that they could set aside one cooking area for her, but they could guarantee nothing, still our friend insisted on eating there. Now we ordered, took a few bites and our friend started to get an reaction. Turns out the table beside us had lemon in their drink. Yes her allergy was that bad, she could literary die from someone on the table beside her squeezing lemon into their drink. So we had to leave our food and go with her outside. Now we offered to help take her to the emergency room a few block away, but she refused, so we ended up sitting watch over her the entire night and eventually having to call and ambulance to take her to the hospital. Now what do this story have to do with the topic at hand? It had to do with forcing responsibility for your own actions onto others. Now off course we sat with our friend and got her help but where we angry at her? Hell yes, she had not only nagged to go with us, she had ignored every warning and when she got sick she even refused to got to the doctors to just get a shot and she would have been fine, instead she created the situation where we, her boyfriend and another friend spent most of the night hovering over her until she had to go to the hospital. Now we never wanted the responsibility for her life and well being, we just wanted to go out and eat, she forced that on us. Had she fallen and broken her leg that would have been something different, that would be no fault of her own. But she choose to go to a restaurant knowing full well that pepole we so severe allergy really can not go to such places, sad but true, she set up the the situation. Now the OP of this thread had the situation where her boyfriend did not want to play, perhaps the whole reason was that he did not want to provide aftercare right that as for many it is a deeply emotional experience, she then go ahead and play with others without even asking him if he would provide aftercare if it was needed. Now when she then comes back to the room in trouble from a situation she herself have set up she get angry because her boyfriend only give the bare minimum of aftercare, that is frankly stupid. Do I think the boyfriend acted correctly, no. I would have given the aftercare and then spoken with my lover the next morning explaining that her behavior was unacceptable that either if I did not want to play she would have to find others to provide aftercare or not play at all, just like we told our friend that we would not take her with us to a restaurant again. But I think he should have taken care of her right then and there, it has to do with compassion for another human being. But the hell did he have the right to be angry. I do not want to play means I do not want to play, no part of playing, and that includes aftercare, she had no right to force that on him. Had he been the one Topping her, or if she had spoken with him up front about her expectations then the situation would have been different, but since that was not the case she basically forced him to be a part of her play when he had told her he did not want to and I definitely understand him getting angry over that. I wish you well

juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/13/2010 7:53:02 PM)
They went to a place where they intended to go and play for the weekend. He agreed to go with her. She paid his way, he was staying in a room SHE paid for. He knew where she was going and never objected. Your story has no bearing on hers.

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