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RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 2:22:03 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		VC et al.

I must admit, I'm a little curious as to how you propose these boards be used. Are we to ask questions about people not on this site? Isn't that gossiping behind someone's back? Effectively, should one accept the restriction put forth by you and LaT to not use a thread to discuss a person who might potentially read it? That would seem to dramatically limit the utility of these boards to hypothetical situations. From my perspective, if the person who inspired the questions behind this thread chose to read it, I don't feel I've anything to hide. I'm puzzled- I don't understand her actions, and I'm seeking some advice. I've taken steps to protect her anonymity, she can't be identified by anything I've written about her. The questions and the agenda are out in the open.

Akasha-

Of all the posters here, I suspect you identify the closest with this individual. We do have some disagreements- I don't see why anyone having a lousy date would even agree to have dessert- I'd simply say, gee, look at the time, I have to be going, got an early day tomw. A simple email when I got home- thanks for dinner, sorry you're not my cup of tea- best of luck in the search. It's not hard, I've written similar notes to people when things just didn't click. Why bother with the elaborate lie and charade? The lie is too involved- she doesn't know the region, how would she know the name of a town to supposedly get lost in that would actually make sense that you could get lost in? I think that the viewpoint that she had a reasonable time at dinner, got lost, frustrated, and then perhaps decided things were moving too quickly and had second thoughts, fits what I know a little better. For all I know, she could have found the love of her life, and has been swept off her feet.

In terms of how we got to me throwing out a rather uncharacteristic- "gee wanna go skinny dipping"- on a first date, the dinner conversation initiated by her largely revolved around BDSM/sex. It had the feel of an interview of a pro-domme session, with some very intimate questions posed in short order- example- are you an anal virgin? The answer was a truthful no- she had been concerned that I lacked experience, since I was obviously not in her league. (I do not consider myself widely experienced in terms of BDSM.) She also commented that dates with "nilla" men often foundered there. So while I feel pretty comfortable knowing the rules for most first dates, I was definitely in the deep end with her.

Your comment about men making propositions and disguising it with flirtations/joking being rude... I agree with you- it's an underhanded way of doing things and not my normal style. In the context of the sexually supercharged conversation we were having though, an offer of skinnydipping didn't seem amiss at the time. Perhaps a better way to put the offer was as a dare- which I think was noted earlier. But it's not where I'd normally go on a first date. FYI- I've had very few one night stands. Most of my relationships with women are longer term. I've also not had a ton of first dates, so my track record is that if I'm on a first date, the odds are good there will be a second.

Your comment about nervousness is perhaps the best take away advice given so far. I was certainly nervous, it didn't occur to me to mention it. But I should have done more to make her feel at ease- and apologizing for my innopportune laughter would have been a good start and perhaps telling her of my nervousness as well.


Cheers,

Sam


(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 3:04:45 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I've snipped this down a bit-if you feel I've cut unreasonably and there's a specific part of your post you want me to reply to just let me know, ok?

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I must admit, I'm a little curious as to how you propose these boards be used. Are we to ask questions about people not on this site? Isn't that gossiping behind someone's back?

I'm kind of thinking this through out loud (fine, on a keyboard), but I suppose it's gossiping however you do it-you've made a decision that your need for advice from an open forum, and the level of detail you have to go into to obtain that advice, is more important than the embarrassment/distress she might feel if she read the thread. (I'm not criticising-it's a perfectly valid call to make, but it *is* a decision you've taken).

So you need advice more than you need to not potentially upset her. Fine. But you could still take steps to minimise the risks-for example, does she have a Fet profile? If not, then a Fet group might potentially have been a better choice. Do you have experienced friends you could ask in private? That's the route I take, personally-you are unlikely to ever see me ask a question about a specific partner on an open forum. One of the reasons I post on this site is to make connections with people, and work out who would be good to go to for advice.

quote:

That would seem to dramatically limit the utility of these boards to hypothetical situations.

You assume the only purpose of these boards is to pick up the pieces when you mess up :P

People talk about practical techniques, about authority structures, about sexual dynamics, about all kinds of wiitwd-related things-often with examples from their own lives in threads-but by and large those examples are used with the knowledge and consent of their partner(s).

quote:

From my perspective, if the person who inspired the questions behind this thread chose to read it, I don't feel I've anything to hide.

It's not just a question of having anything to hide-you called her boorish, for example-do you not think that would be hurtful? Would you say that to her face? Because this forum is public, and its readership is in the thousands. All those people have access to a thread insulting her, and while logically they won't know who you're talking about, I'd bet that would still sting.

Like I said, I'm not demanding a lynch-mob on her behalf or anything, but it's not what I would consider a particularly great way to behave. Don't forget that any potential woman on CM considering dating you has access to your posting history; if they check and see your last date dissected like this in public, do you think that would give them a great feeling about risking having a crappy date with you?

<edited for overuse of the word 'ok'>


< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 8/14/2010 3:12:45 PM >

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 5:28:12 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi VC

You raise some interesting points. I've learned a lot from this thread- first and foremost- don't do it again! (And am I the only one, or were some of the posts I made reminiscent of political spin control- and how quickly distortions become part of the thread tapestry.) But I suspect that my reasons may be different than yours.

In terms of finding people on this site and asking individuals for advice- two problems and an observation.

Observation- men and women get very different responses on this board- much the same as when people used to stop and ask for directions. Women can ask women or men for directions, men tend to ask only men since women were afraid of the strange guy approaching. If I sent out 100 emails to random women on this board asking for advice- I'll bet that I'd maybe get 5 responses and 1 or 2 might be more likely. If you sent out 100 emails asking for help, you'd probably get 100 plus responses. So in practice, asking an individual for help will depend heavily on which sex you are.

Problem 1) How do you find the correct individual to ask?
Problem 2) How do you define the issue so that someone would actually take an interest- assuming you find the hypothetical correct person.

Your suggestion about Fetlife- I'm not on that board, I'm on this one. I thought that since I've posted a fair amount here, some folks would have a sense of who I am. Boy was I wrong.....Also- I know, the boards have a multitude of functions other than advice for the lovelorn. There even used to be a forum for site improvements, and after this thread, I could make some suggestions. (I didn't realize I needed to have such a thick skin to ask for some advice...) However, there have been more than a few threads dealing with relationships.

In terms of calling her boorish to her face- I'd ask whether she'd like to be treated the way she treated me...Truth is one of the best defenses against slander and polite behavior is a great defense against being called rude. It seems to me that anonymity breeds rudeness- that individuals who in polite company might not say boo, have no trouble assuming a different persona on this site and insulting individuals from the safety of a screen name. While privacy is certainly to be treasured, the utility of this site has been greatly reduced by the rude behavior of a high percentage of users since many have fled to other sites. (Really a topic for a different thread though.) In my book, a polite thank you is not a lot to ask for taking someone out to dinner. In terms of whether I've scared potential dates off- if they feel that a polite thank you is an onerous burden, then clearly, they shouldn't go out on a date with me. Also, I doubt I'd ever post a thread like this again given that I tend to know the rules for dating, and this was a very unusual occurrence for me. Consider the flip side- would you date a shmuck who wasn't offended by rude behavior?


Cheers,

Sam


(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 6:40:24 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Sam, I am pretty much on the same page as VC. Regarding folks not having a feel for who you are, I went over to search your posts since you are totally unfamilar to me. Well, between last February and now your posts have mostly been in Politics and Religion, a forum where only the ...daring?...tread. Ever posted in the Mistress area? That's where most of the femdom types are.

I perved you too, and let me say I am AMAZED that you are over 40. Swear to Emily Post, I would have figured you for a 30 yr old, max.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 6:52:30 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
I've done the cutting thing again. Same deal, 'k? :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Problem 1) How do you find the correct individual to ask?
Problem 2) How do you define the issue so that someone would actually take an interest- assuming you find the hypothetical correct
person.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough. The answer to both these questions is that you participate on the boards when you *don't* need something back.

I could reel you off a list of male subs that any Domme on this board would bend over backwards to talk a problem through with. That's because they answer questions, they make jokes, they interact with said Dommes, they get a reputation as a generally good egg. They also get a feel for who to go to for advice. If you want CM to be a resource that generates quality advice then that's what you have to do.

quote:

Your suggestion about Fetlife- I'm not on that board, I'm on this one. I thought that since I've posted a fair amount here, some folks would have a sense of who I am. Boy was I wrong.....
Well I can't speak for anyone else but I honestly had no idea who you were. And I'd suggest that if you're going to talk about a member of a site then the onus is on *you* to move sites-setting up a Fet profile doesn't take long.

quote:

However, there have been more than a few threads dealing with relationships.

Yes there have, and those threads fall into 3 categories:
1) Threads where both partners are aware of and consent to the discussion
2) Threads where the poster is absolutely sure the other partner will never see the thread
3) Threads that make me, personally, very uncomfortable.

quote:

In terms of whether I've scared potential dates off- if they feel that a polite thank you is an onerous burden, then clearly, they shouldn't go out on a date with me.

You've missed my point-if they feel that if they displease you on the date you will start a thread about them on a public forum with a large readership, then they *won't* go on a date with you, let alone 'shouldn't'.

quote:

Consider the flip side- would you date a shmuck who wasn't offended by rude behavior?

No. But equally I would never date someone who felt this level of (what is to me) indiscretion was appropriate. Nobody is expecting you not to be offended, but I would not expect a partner of mine to feel that being offended made it ok for her to bitch about someone where they might stumble across it.

I'm not saying this woman is an anything but rude, or that her actions were justified. I am saying that in my opinion starting this thread lacked class.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/14/2010 8:37:33 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		LadyH, VC

From my perspective, neither of you are suggesting practical solutions to a problem. From LadyH, my translation of her post is that since I primarily post in the Politics and Religion forum (true) and not in the Mistress section, I am a second class citizen- and immature to boot. (By the way- I'm pushing 50.)

From VC- "I could reel you off a list of male subs that any Domme on this board would bend over backwards to talk a problem through with. That's because they answer questions, they make jokes, they interact with said Dommes, they get a reputation as a generally good egg. They also get a feel for who to go to for advice. If you want CM to be a resource that generates quality advice then that's what you have to do."

Chicken and the egg problem here. If I had enough experience to post meaningfully rather than just read, I would. Perhaps those souls that post here would never ask a question such as mine because they already know the answer. I have posted in the forums which match my knowledge and skills and is where I think I can contribute meaningfully to the community. Furthermore- you've avoided the problem of actually finding an individual who has sufficient knowledge to be a resource to answer the question meaningfully- never mind asking them to take the time to help you analyze the situation. That's quite an imposition....

From my perspective, I'm in a lose/lose situation. Should I email this individual for her permission to start a thread discussing what happened? That seems to me to be highly manipulative. Nor can I ask a question to help solve a problem because I might potentially offend an individual who may or may not be reading this thread to avoid the appearance of gossip. Note- gossip-especially malicious gossip, involves naming individuals. I have taken pains so that this individual identity should not be compromised- it's close to a hypothetical example. So I'm doomed to repeat my errors. Neither seems a very palatable option...

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Submissive Man meets female supremacist and attempt... - 8/15/2010 2:40:22 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

From LadyH, my translation of her post is that since I primarily post in the Politics and Religion forum (true) and not in the Mistress section, I am a second class citizen

Second-class citizen is a deliberately emotive choice of words on your part, but she's right. The people you want don't visit P&R. P&R is essentially separate from the rest of the boards-if you want to show regular posters who you are and what you're about, and to form a connection with women you might want to talk to about your life, then posting there is utterly useless.

Sorry if you don't think that's fair, but it *is* accurate.

quote:

Chicken and the egg problem here. If I had enough experience to post meaningfully rather than just read, I would. Perhaps those souls that post here would never ask a question such as mine because they already know the answer.

Sorry, nope, not buying it. Several of the guys on this list have no/very little experience. They post about their ideas and feelings, they ask questions about the ideas and feelings and experiences of others, they make jokes-they get involved.

quote:

I have posted in the forums which match my knowledge and skills and is where I think I can contribute meaningfully to the community.

Quite possibly, but it's a forum that we don't read, for the most part. I'm sure Brain or Heretic or someone will be very grateful for your contribution there but it's meaningless to *me*.

quote:

Furthermore- you've avoided the problem of actually finding an individual who has sufficient knowledge to be a resource to answer the question meaningfully- never mind asking them to take the time to help you analyze the situation.

You participate in regular discussion (BEFORE you need help-you've probably missed the boat on this one) and you get a feel for who to ask. AAkasha, LP, Lady Hib, allthatjaz (VERY short EXAMPLE list, nobody get offended if you aren't on it, please)-have you ever replied to their posts on here? Have you ever interacted with them? Made them like you enough to want to help you?

I doubt you have because I'd probably have seen the posts. But if you don't generate warm feelings toward yourself from other posters (without demanding anything from them at the time) they will not be motivated to talk problems through with you when you need help, and if you do then they will. This isn't rocket science, it's basic human interaction.

quote:

That's quite an imposition....

Not if they consider you a friend. Which they don't, because they've never heard of you (am I labouring the point enough? Because you seemed to miss it the first time round...).

quote:

Nor can I ask a question to help solve a problem because I might potentially offend an individual who may or may not be reading this thread to avoid the appearance of gossip.

Not just for that reason, but also to avoid making posters like me uncomfortable. My impressions of people who start threads like this get a little bit tainted, and when I see your name next to a post for a while I'm likely to think 'oh, that's the guy who...'

quote:

I have taken pains so that this individual identity should not be compromised- it's close to a hypothetical example.

It's not just a question of identity, it's also a question of detail-you dissected her behaviour over the evening in front of a bunch of strangers on the internet.

You didn't respond to my point about how seeing this thread might make a potential date feel, in terms of 'my behaviour might end up being publicly discussed like this'. Can you see how it would put people off?

quote:

So I'm doomed to repeat my errors. Neither seems a very palatable option...

Oh, don't be so melodramatic. (Second-class citizen? Doomed to repeat? Come off it.) You can repeat this mess the next time you fuck up, or you can join the non-P&R community and behave with some decorum.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 8/15/2010 2:58:59 AM >

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 67
--- - 8/15/2010 2:54:47 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:


You demonstrate perspicacity well beyond your years. But...you made a couple of assumptions that I think are incorrect so let me respond.


I will admit my first post was full of assumptions, but that's why I added that vague disclaimer which states that I'm clueless! The purpose was entertainment and to get you to "stop acting like a dick" (LH).

It doesn't make sense for you to be getting rejected if she did something wrong. If she did, you'd be rejecting her or she'd be apologizing.

Sam, I really respect you: First, for your honesty; Second for your ability to accept critisicm and reply, despite the fact that I kindly tore you down. So, I'd shake your hand and I'd buy you a beer. I completely believe you are 'alpha'.
quote:


2) I'm a little unsure as to which instincts I followed, and which ones let me down. If your assumption was that I was trying on dominant shoes for a date- you'd be wrong- I'm normally a take charge guy in the "nilla" world.

You acted naturally - good.
4) In terms of subservience....

quote:


a) act like a milquetoast. there are a lot of smart women who aren't looking for a doormat, and I read her this way.

You wouldn't have pulled that off, anyway; it would have came off as sarcastic.
quote:


b) Try and challenge- show that you are worthy of consideration in terms of intellect and interests and that you are far from a doormat. Downside-if you show that you may be smarter or more well educated than she is, her insecurities may kick in. Alternatively, you may demonstrate that you are an uncultured boor, not worthy of her presence.

If you meant simply demonstrate, you don't need to challenge. As Akasha and I both pointed out, bragging or proving worthiness is extremely unnattractive. The only good ways to qualify yourself are to do it indirectly: by answering her questions, using someone else or a funny story. She'll pick up on enough of your demonstrating by how you behave.

The best way to challenge (if you meant disqualify) is to tease. But I'm not sure you want to be doing this... ("No helicopter?" Or stuff like: "I usually go for women a few years younger than me." "You're very considerate to men for a female supremacist.")

What about option c) displaying respect and defering. She was letting you and encouraging you to lead some. You don't need to challenge anything, she was letting you be yourself! When leading the interraction, you can show respect or that you're willing to defer if asked to. Bla bla bla, but I'd definately go with your preference." If I had to translate this into female sub friendly language it'd be "Bla bla bla, but we'd never do anything you're not comfortable with."
quote:


Your comment about my lack of seduction skills is bang on- I'm more than twice your age, so I think it's a lost cause.

No joke. You're more comfortable with set dating rules though, so I'd stick to your approach where you don't do things until a certain time period or certain waypoints as opposed to relying on measuring reactions to know when things are appropriate. If you can't determine whether you have comfort, attraction, trust, intrigue and a decent enough story she can tell her friends, don't even bother (an "obvious" get a room moment -AAkasha). As DarkSteven pointed out: no, you are not good at reading people. What you are good at is asking people for their opinion.

It's quite likely that the intuitive person will figure out your mutual incompatability first (which might have happened in this case).

Fun tip: You can always suggest to your future girlfriend or Domme to let you/help teach you how to seduce her after you have a relationship. You can even roleplay that you don't know eachother or she's putting up resistance. Mostly for fun... If you meet a woman who doesn't want 2-3 hours of attention then... let's clone her!

quote:

I don't put on an act while on a date- either the person is going to be interested in who I am, or they won't be.

You can't micromanage your reactions. You can change your state of mind to something else that fits your personality and you will send out the appropriate messages consciously and unconsciously. When I'm "up to no good" in more ways than one, I come off alot differently then when I'm respectful or thoughtful.
If it's a state of mind that's not natural to you, that's when you're forcing your brain to use different structures and probably failing. Lucky for you, most people can easily be in a respectful state of mind.

quote:


5) In terms of your comment about female supremacists or self-confident women? If this had been a date with a self-confident woman...

I did say I understood your reaction to her being extremely forward sexually, it's natural to want to respond in a similiar manner. I can also see that in a place where some men would be abit intimidated and act respectfully, taking a completely indirect and safe approach, she might be refreshed by someone with the gall to take the risk of seducing her or being forward.

As far as female supremacists go, I don't know anything about much (another disclaimer), but I'd wager they are looking for respect and would probably enjoy intimidating men with their sexuality.

Either way, just be yourself for goodness sake, that's the easiest thing to pull off. When you can lead, ask for input and defer (what you call 'alpha), why the fuck would you want to emulate someone else? Any specific mood or state of mind that is natural to you is what you can pull off (even respectful).

quote:

Your comment about nervousness is perhaps the best take away advice given so far.

It's ok, when you get nervous you laugh and talk, when I get nervous I forget what I'm saying and look stunned. Trust me, I remember every single time this has happened to me. Luckily, it makes me look innocent or cute or something and seems to induce giggling instead of annoyance, but a turnoff nonetheless.

It's a purely academical excercise trying to poinpoint exactly at which point she decided to ditch you (deserts or no deserts). Could have been in her car even, because you certainly didn't have enough comfort or attraction to keep her interested long enough to drive there.
quote:

AAkasha
Propositioning a woman essentially then being prepared to say "I was only joking," is a cop out.

Not to mention it suggests that the man might be testing her reaction, which can make her doubt if he respects women who would do that. It's a good way of shooting yourself in the foot. There are some judgemental guys out there too. Sigh.
quote:


For all I know, she could have found the love of her life, and has been swept off her feet.

Well, you definately planted the sweeping part in her mind without having a decent broom. If you plant seeds in someone's mind, have some water and sunshine handy and be patient enough till whatever grows is ripe for the picking. (I know nothing about agriculture either.)



I certainly don't consider this thread innapropriate. He was abit disrespectful at one point, but we set him straight. It certainly doesn't make the anonymous woman in question seem bad at all. (For a female supremacist that is - Ick.) She'd probably be happy about all the support if she read it. The dude isn't bad either: he's honest, takes critiscism well and is decently self-aware. I don't mind replying to him, because getting rejected can be quite frustrating and it happens to everyone. Plus after my last post, I owe him a pick-me-up.

AAkasha: I can't be playfully condescending?

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/15/2010 3:10:41 PM >

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 4:37:17 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Rereading this thread turned up this reference from Slavekal

"The Courage to Submit: the submissive male's guide to finding a dominant woman"
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-courage-to-submit-the-guide-for-the-submissive-male-seeking-a-dominant-woman/5968917

- who also pointed out that dealing with dominant women could certainly be more challenging than "nilla". Thanks Kal- missed it the first time through, but that may be as good an answer I'm going to get. Anybody read this? Any good?

Two Shoes-

Dude- if we ever meet up- the beers are on me! And if you ever have an urge to try dinghy racing- your personality would fit in with our crowd- so give me a shout if the urge strikes.

VC et al.

From my perspective, our exchange has veered from the original topic and is contributing little. I am reminded of the movie "Heathers"- perhaps the best example of cliquish behavior I can find. Unfortunately, your responses seem to fall into this category as well.

Let me point out the following-

1) There have been a number of people posting on this thread, on the original topic without feeling that it was somehow underhanded or lacked "class".
2) Your suggestion that I go to Fetlife to post merely shoves my question to somebody else that isn't you. Furthermore, it denigrates my contributions to this site.
3) This topic was posted in the ask a submissive section. Had you commented on the topic, then your input would have been valuable. But since most of your posts have been harping on my temerity to actually ask such a question, their value is diminished in my eyes. Had I posted in the ask a mistress section, then perhaps your response would have been more understandable, although still disheartening.
4) You're correct I used emotive words such as "second class citizen" and this was in error. Steerage class would have been more accurate.
5) Most damning of all is your characterization here

"Second-class citizen is a deliberately emotive choice of words on your part, but she's right. The people you want don't visit P&R. P&R is essentially separate from the rest of the boards-if you want to show regular posters who you are and what you're about, and to form a connection with women you might want to talk to about your life, then posting there is utterly useless.

Sorry if you don't think that's fair, but it *is* accurate."

Utter rubbish. The only way you could have this knowledge is if you could read all the emails between posters on that board. Furthermore, I have struck up acquaintances with fellow denizens of that board (both men and women) where the offline discussion ranges from jobs to love lives. There are a bunch of folks who post there that I'd love to meet in person- geography can be such a bitch. Thus your sweeping generalization is just grossly in error- and I suspect I'm not the only one who would feel it to be both unfair and denigrating.

6) "Quite possibly, but it's a forum that we don't read, for the most part. I'm sure Brain or Heretic or someone will be very grateful for your contribution there but it's meaningless to *me*."

Your problem. There is nothing preventing you from reading the search function if you want to get a sense of who I am from my posts- it's one of the reasons I make them. From my perspective- a likely hypothesis is that you have decided that denizens of such a forum aren't "cool" and therefore, not worthy of your respect. Rather sweeping and condescending behavior in my book. I think my posts show that I have contributed to this site, and therefore have paid my dues to ask a question- even in - gasp- another forum! Who are you to judge where I should ask a question?

7) "You participate in regular discussion (BEFORE you need help-you've probably missed the boat on this one) and you get a feel for who to ask. AAkasha, LP, Lady Hib, allthatjaz (VERY short EXAMPLE list, nobody get offended if you aren't on it, please)-have you ever replied to their posts on here? Have you ever interacted with them? Made them like you enough to want to help you? "

Again- unfounded assumptions. I have crossed paths, although in other forums, with at least of a couple of names on that list. I cannot tell whether they remember me or not. However, your assumption that they would be helpful if sent an email- highly unlikely-since I suspect that I sent at least one email to a person on that list which wasn't answered. Do you know if all the people listed answer all emails more than one line? From my perspective- you are not offering a practical solution- it's more lip service than anything else. Another interpretation is if you join our clique- we'll be happy to talk to you.

Because I am a scientist- I believe in offering practical solutions to problems. So VC et al. let me offer you some possible alternatives the next time a thread pops up that you feel is inappropriate.

1) Invite the poster to remove the thread, and suggest that you may have some people in your network that can help answer the question posed offline, rather than on a public thread.
2) You can indicate that often similar threads degenerate into denigrating the poster and require a great deal of preemptive monitoring to prevent distortion of the original post and tangents which are neither informative nor well intentioned.
3) You can ignore the thread if it offends your sensibilities and you have nothing positive to contribute.

From my perspective, the invitation to hang out with you and your posse in the Mistress forum is less than inviting since I think it was tendered more pro forma than with sincerity. Since your previous statements have shown that you consider me one of the losers and freaks from another forum, well, I guess that's a label I'll have to live with- but I'll proudly stay with them, since at least we don't form this type of clique. People can ask any question they like and will probably be treated as well or as badly as anybody else who hangs out there.

In terms of this thread- you'll probably win- cool kicks logic and facts in public opinion any day. Why do you think that spokespeople for various diseases are often actors and actresses rather than the scientists who actually work on the problem?


Cheers

Sam




(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:07:58 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

I certainly don't consider this thread innapropriate. He was abit disrespectful at one point, but we set him straight. It certainly doesn't make the anonymous woman in question seem bad at all. (For a female supremacist that is - Ick.) She'd probably be happy about all the support if she read it.

I'm sorry, but I disagree (I know you're shocked at this dramatic turn of events-I can feel your surprise through the screen :P).

We've all had dates which went badly. I can't talk for anyone else but I would *not* want my bad dates dissected in public like this-this thread has had more than 1200 hits-no matter the reaction from the peanut gallery. I understand that he wanted feedback, but I still think a website he knows she has a presence on is an inappropriate arena in which to publicly talk about her.

quote:

The dude isn't bad either: he's honest, takes critiscism well and is decently self-aware.

I agree. Like I said, I'm not demanding any lynch mobs or anything :P

ETA: the above post was made while I was typing. Apparently, however, he can't tell the difference between 'separate' and 'inferior'...

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 8/15/2010 5:12:53 PM >

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(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:38:04 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Let me point out the following-

1) There have been a number of people posting on this thread, on the original topic without feeling that it was somehow underhanded or lacked "class".
And I was one of them-before you mentioned she was an active user of this site.

quote:

2) Your suggestion that I go to Fetlife to post merely shoves my question to somebody else that isn't you. Furthermore, it denigrates my contributions to this site.

No, it places the question in an arena where she is less likely to find it-it's not about refusing to answer the question. I did post a response to the question above somewhere, but it's 1.15am and I don't have the energy to find it.

quote:

3) This topic was posted in the ask a submissive section.

The forums here operate on a 'everyone posts everywhere' basis. This is a whole 'nother debate I'm not willing to get into.

quote:

5) Most damning of all is your characterization here

"Second-class citizen is a deliberately emotive choice of words on your part, but she's right. The people you want don't visit P&R. P&R is essentially separate from the rest of the boards-if you want to show regular posters who you are and what you're about, and to form a connection with women you might want to talk to about your life, then posting there is utterly useless.

Sorry if you don't think that's fair, but it *is* accurate."

Utter rubbish. The only way you could have this knowledge is if you could read all the emails between posters on that board. Furthermore, I have struck up acquaintances with fellow denizens of that board (both men and women) where the offline discussion ranges from jobs to love lives. There are a bunch of folks who post there that I'd love to meet in person- geography can be such a bitch. Thus your sweeping generalization is just grossly in error- and I suspect I'm not the only one who would feel it to be both unfair and denigrating.

Nowhere in the above quote did I say anything negative about P&R. I said it was separate, not that it was bad! There are a bunch of folks who post there that *I* would love to meet in person, but those people *also post here*, so I know who they are (juliaoceania springs to mind as an example-fuck, but I admire that woman).


quote:

From my perspective- a likely hypothesis is that you have decided that denizens of such a forum aren't "cool" and therefore, not worthy of your respect.

I'm sorry, but this is just not true. I don't read or post there because I have no interest in American-centric political discussion-not because I think there is *anything* wrong with people who do. You're the one making the assumption here, not me.

quote:

I think my posts show that I have contributed to this site, and therefore have paid my dues to ask a question- even in - gasp- another forum! Who are you to judge where I should ask a question?

You have taken my remarks utterly out of context. I was talking about posting in the non-P&R forums in order to develop relationships with people in order to ask them questions *privately*-what forums you ask questions in are your own choice.

quote:

Again- unfounded assumptions. I have crossed paths, although in other forums, with at least of a couple of names on that list. I cannot tell whether they remember me or not. However, your assumption that they would be helpful if sent an email- highly unlikely-since I suspect that I sent at least one email to a person on that list which wasn't answered. Do you know if all the people listed answer all emails more than one line?
I don't know if the people listed answer emails of more than one line, but I'm pretty sure they answer all emails from people they consider friends. If you haven't put the energy into befriending them then they don't owe you a response. Again, you've missed the point I was making-generate warmth, show them you're an intelligent person with contributions to make and *then* email them-if you can't tell if they remember you then you aren't operating at anywhere near the level of friendly public interaction I'm suggesting.

quote:

Another interpretation is if you join our clique- we'll be happy to talk to you.

That's a perfectly good interpretation of what I'm saying, even if you've resorted to loaded language again. Join our friendship group and we will be friendly with you. Dude, that's basic human interaction!

quote:

1) Invite the poster to remove the thread, and suggest that you may have some people in your network that can help answer the question posed offline, rather than on a public thread.

You can't remove threads on CM.

quote:

2) You can indicate that often similar threads degenerate into denigrating the poster and require a great deal of preemptive monitoring to prevent distortion of the original post and tangents which are neither informative nor well intentioned.

Why would I do that? You're an adult, you have access to past threads just like I have access to your posting history.

quote:

3) You can ignore the thread if it offends your sensibilities and you have nothing positive to contribute.

I can ignore the fact that you're posting about a woman without her knowledge on a site she is active on? No, thanks.

quote:

From my perspective, the invitation to hang out with you and your posse in the Mistress forum is less than inviting since I think it was tendered more pro forma than with sincerity.

No it wasn't, actually-until this post I had a relatively high opinion of you. You write clearly, you listen to what others say (or at least I thought you did until this clusterfuck of a post where you have decided I apparently think anyone who posts in P&R 'isn't cool'...) and (again, until this post) you argued your points calmly.


quote:

Since your previous statements have shown that you consider me one of the losers and freaks from another forum

Nope-I consider you a person who *posts* on another forum-you're implying a value judgement that just isn't there. (I know I said that already but I'd hate for anyone from P&R to read this and think I looked down on their forum.)

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 8/15/2010 5:39:01 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:46:21 PM   
MistressTonya2u


Posts: 140
Joined: 12/20/2009
Status: offline 		Just a few thoughts on the orginial post.

First, I will admit to having skipped out on a date, when things felt "off".
I also have refused to reply to messages from some people.
I have one person who repeatedly tries to contact me, and every time I block that profile, they make another profile and send me another message.
Being continually messaged, does not endear them to me, it makes me realize I made the correct decision in refusing to meet them face to face.

* I am not suggesting you are doing the same to her, rather this is why I do not always respond, if I get messages that make me uneasy, I just do not respond, rather than having to deal with issues like this person and their multiple profiles, and no answer IS an answer.*

I also have been stalked in real life so I am more careful with how I interact with strangers.

You felt something with her, but maybe she did not feel it for you.

**NOTE: I did not say or imply that you are a stalker. But from my own experience, I can tell you that these things do happen and I am more concerned with my own safety than in appearing rude**

As to not repsonding, maybe she has been deciding on what she wants to do, see you again or no.
Sending numerous emails/texts may have made her decide you are not her cup of tea.
You are never going to know why she did what she did, unless she decides to tell her.
Don't obsess over it, just move along until you find the right woman.
I do not see anything wrong with you asking a question here, as long as you are not identifying her.

I agree with the statements about not saying anything about skinnydipping (even though I believe you when you say you were half joking, that can be taken very badly), also the point about leaving her car behind would have been a huge red flag to me.

I do not like to drive, I hate it.
So, I am only willing to meet with men who either come to the town I live in, or are willing to meet me in an area within an hour of my house, where I am comfortable.
I do not drive in areas where I am unfamiliar.
So possibly she did get irritated and go home, it is possible.
However, if she wanted/wants  to see you again, she will contact you.

I have spoken to people who wanted to meet me at a hotel within 10 minutes of initally talking to them, red flag.

You have to be careful with what you say in a new meeting.
Let her take the lead, and instead of coming up in your head with ideas of what you are going to tell her, (I know when you are nervous, a lot of times you *generic you, not you personally* may be more focused on what to say to charm her, and miss cues and body language as well as actually hearing what she is saying) really listen to what she has to say.
Then you will be better prepared as to what is or is not appropriate conversation.

All the best in your search.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:46:28 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Just to clarify---I do not consider those brave folk who venture into the clusterfuck that is the Politics and Religion section to be second class citizens. There are many very intelligent and well spoken people who go over there to tilt at windmills, many of them my friends. Hats off to them. Nonetheless, that section is trafficked by a set group. It is not on ME to go reading your posts to get to know you unless you approach me, and vice versa.

When I mentioned your age---and you are the one who put the "immaturity" spin on it, I was thinking more a lack of social skills---I was thinking that you were one of that generation who didn't have the benefit of the etiquette training that folks my age did. I would honestly not expect a person with thirty years out in the social arena to make the comments that you did, and continue to do.

If you want help from a female dominant here, you really do have to go where WE are. Sorry if you feel unwelcome, but you really have dug yourself a bit of a trench here.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:53:37 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		"Nope-I consider you a person who *posts* on another forum-you're implying a value judgement that just isn't there. (I know I said that already but I'd hate for anyone from P&R to read this and think I looked down on their forum.)"

Let me tender the following suggestion. Get some sleep, and review what you've written when you're fresh. I suspect that you will see that its rather inflammatory and derogatory if you can look at it a bit more objectively.

And you're right- you don't need a mod to remove a post- you can edit your own out.


Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 5:57:09 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Actually, Sam, the "edit" function has a short window of opportunity.

You are taking a very defensive stance here, and no one is attacking you. Maybe you should take a break and think it over.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 6:02:24 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Let me tender the following suggestion. Get some sleep, and review what you've written when you're fresh. I suspect that you will see that its rather inflammatory and derogatory if you can look at it a bit more objectively.

Do not patronise me, please. How is 'P&R and the rest of the boards are essentially separate forums with some user overlap' inflammatory and derogatory? I'm pretty sure most of P&R would agree with that statement.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 7:03:21 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

I'm sorry, but I disagree (I know you're shocked at this dramatic turn of events-I can feel your surprise through the screen :P).


I can see your point, I certainly wouldn't have posted this myself. I probably wouldn't have replied either, but it was too tempting. Kind of like the last part of this post.

quote:

LadyHibiscus
I was thinking that you were one of that generation who didn't have the benefit of the etiquette training that folks my age did. I would honestly not expect a person with thirty years out in the social arena [...]

Well, that's what happens when you're too good looking. You smile and they fall on your lap. Then 30 years later you realize there was ettiquette to be had.

*thinks*

LH, can you teach me etiquette, please?

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 7:10:08 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes



AAkasha: I can't be playfully condescending?


Sure you can! In the spirit of this thread with no one intending romance, what's to lose?

But on a first date with someone, I just think "playfully condescending" is asking for trouble. I think a man being "playfully condescending" to a woman in general (unless they really are a couple and understand each other) has too many possible disasters for very little possible reward.  Even "jokes" can be hurtful.  And it's hard to read the other person if they are laughing along.  And really, isn't "playfully teasing/being mean to the person you like" something we left behind in grade school?  It's a dangerous way to show affection. 

Back to the other point about a man being "challenging."  I see sub men say this a lot, that they want to be challenging. What happens is that they often come across as inappropriately bossy, or insecure, or like they are trying too hard.  A man can be classy and deferring WITHOUT being a wet blanket - classy vanilla men do this all the time.  Romantics know how to do it. 

I think maybe one of the safest, most refreshing way a submissive man can be "challenging" is by keeping his "submissive secrets" close to the vest and not spilling his kinky agenda/kinky MO on the table, *even when being asked*.  Be a challenge in that you are an onion waiting to be peeled, revealing the layers of what makes you most vulnerable, don't just spill your guts the moment a woman says, "So, you are kinky?"  That's the fun kind of challenging.  When a man doesn't just show his "submissive/bottom/kinky" cards until he feels safe with me.  Then I know he's looking for a connection with me as a person, not just looking for anyone who will dominate him.

Akasha

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(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 7:12:38 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Lady Tonya

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, at this point, the ball is in her court, and if she decides to contact me, I'll be extremely surprised. But I've given it the old college try, and this thread has helped me confirm that. I must admit, I don't think the emails have been excessive, but who knows?

With a certain amount of chagrin, I must admit that I think as Dark Steven and Two Shoes have pointed out- I don't read people well. Of course I'm under the mistaken impression that I do, so I run into trouble.

Lady H- people reading these boards are not mind readers- all we have to go on are your written words- what they state and what they imply.

Commenting that someone is much younger than their calendar age implies immaturity to 99% of the population (or a brilliant plastic surgeon). Claiming that you were thinking it implied lack of social skills due to lack of development- well, how exactly is that different?

Reviewing previous posts on your comments about the politics and religion forum might also prove instructive. Again, I think most people reading those posts would come away with the idea that you thought those folks were unworthy of association since criticism in one section of a post carries over to other sections. My reading is that your posts are logically inconsistent. I suggest you take another look at posts 63, 65, and 72.

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: --- - 8/15/2010 7:42:30 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		You still trying to get the last word in? Don't answer that.

For what it's worth, I don't traipse much into the P&R section. I prefer to remain reality challenged.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 80
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