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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 12:03:43 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It only takes a few villagers with pitchforks and signs to make the entire country look like a bunch of intolerant assholes. I think you are projecting your own opinion on the rest of this country. I will continue to believe that Americans believe in the right to build a house of worship in peace, even if the nutbags in this country want to present an opposite picture...

I think you underestimate the power of our tradition of freedom of religion in your own calculation over the political price that is going to be paid over this... many Americans don't like persecuting Muslims and keeping them from building a mosque... stories like the ones highlighted in the article below will highlight how poisonous fear mongering is and how ugly bigotry can be

quote:

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/16/2010 12:06:15 PM >

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 12:25:45 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It only takes a few villagers with pitchforks and signs to make the entire country look like a bunch of intolerant assholes. I think you are projecting your own opinion on the rest of this country. I will continue to believe that Americans believe in the right to build a house of worship in peace, even if the nutbags in this country want to present an opposite picture...

I think you underestimate the power of our tradition of freedom of religion in your own calculation over the political price that is going to be paid over this... many Americans don't like persecuting Muslims and keeping them from building a mosque... stories like the ones highlighted in the article below will highlight how poisonous fear mongering is and how ugly bigotry can be

quote:

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html



The problem is julia, anyone can pull stories of villagers and pitchforks to support either side.

While I am sure the majority of Americans support the right to religious freedom, I am equally sure the majority thinks the placement of this mosque is in poor taste at best, inflammatory at worst. I am about as certain that it generates as much support as it does from the left side of the aisle because it is not a Christian establishment.

My opinion means nothing in the broader scope of how the country leans. Means I didn't make the polls. I just read them. I can imagine however, that the republican strategists are loving the democratic support in a country where the vast majority of citizens identify themselves as Christian and have seen their faith constantly attacked by the left.

Shrug. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me.


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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 12:38:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

My opinion means nothing in the broader scope of how the country leans. Means I didn't make the polls. I just read them. I can imagine however, that the republican strategists are loving the democratic support in a country where the vast majority of citizens identify themselves as Christian and have seen their faith constantly attacked by the left.


You see this as an attack on Christianity? Wow, I see any abridgment on the freedom of religion as an attack on all religions, including Christianity.... today it is Islam who is the minority faith in this country, tomorrow it could be Christianity that is the minority religion... Upholding the freedom of all religions protects all of them... even the ones that enjoy majority support at this moment in time... that might not be the case in 50 or 100 years from now

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 12:45:22 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania



You see this as an attack on Christianity?


Nice twist.

Absolutely not.

What I see in defense of placing this mosque near ground zero however, is an attack on Christianity. Just read back through the posts. I'm sure you'll find plenty of references to how bad Christians have been in the past, and the bad things that some here and there do.

It's like... defending bad decisions with bad decisions.

Beyond that, Christians have long considered themselves under attack from the left. That was the reference and you know it.




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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 12:58:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Nice twist.

Absolutely not.

What I see in defense of placing this mosque near ground zero however, is an attack on Christianity. Just read back through the posts. I'm sure you'll find plenty of references to how bad Christians have been in the past, and the bad things that some here and there do.

It's like... defending bad decisions with bad decisions.

Beyond that, Christians have long considered themselves under attack from the left. That was the reference and you know it.


This is not a Christian nation, Christians do not own Ground Zero, and hundreds of Muslims lost their lives on 9-11 too. The most populous Islamic country is a friend to the US, and that country is Indonesia. We do not need to fear Islam, we need to embrace it, and take the arrows that extremists use to convince moderate Muslims to fear us. The less ammo they have, such as showing how intolerant we are over building houses of worship, the more moderate Muslims will reject them...

Or we can continue fearing and hating each other for no other reason than of this "my god has a bigger dick than your god" business

_____________________________

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 1:18:42 PM   
StrangerThan


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Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Nice twist.

Absolutely not.

What I see in defense of placing this mosque near ground zero however, is an attack on Christianity. Just read back through the posts. I'm sure you'll find plenty of references to how bad Christians have been in the past, and the bad things that some here and there do.

It's like... defending bad decisions with bad decisions.

Beyond that, Christians have long considered themselves under attack from the left. That was the reference and you know it.


This is not a Christian nation, Christians do not own Ground Zero, and hundreds of Muslims lost their lives on 9-11 too. The most populous Islamic country is a friend to the US, and that country is Indonesia. We do not need to fear Islam, we need to embrace it, and take the arrows that extremists use to convince moderate Muslims to fear us. The less ammo they have, such as showing how intolerant we are over building houses of worship, the more moderate Muslims will reject them...

Or we can continue fearing and hating each other for no other reason than of this "my god has a bigger dick than your god" business


The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such.

I'm laughing, because it is absurd.

Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story.



< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 8/16/2010 1:19:50 PM >

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 1:27:40 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such.

I'm laughing, because it is absurd.

Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story.


How have I attacked Christianity?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 2:33:51 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such.

I'm laughing, because it is absurd.

Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story.


How have I attacked Christianity?


I'm just reading your lists of intolerant assholes






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Profile   Post #: 248
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 2:40:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such.

I'm laughing, because it is absurd.

Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story.


How have I attacked Christianity?


I'm just reading your lists of intolerant assholes







This is not the first time you have accused me of having positions I do not hold, and when asked to produce examples of where I have stated these positions, you post some non sequitor sort of nonsense because you can't...

What "list" of assholes are you speaking of? The list of American Muslims that died in the attack on the World Trade Center? What did they do wrong to be called names by you?

Edited to say, perhaps you mean the list of places where there were "intolerant assholes" protesting places of religious worship...

You are the one that made the point that republicans were going to make out politically over the mosque controversy... my point is that it could fly the opposite way, that this could be painted as right wing intolerance towards Muslims...

I do not see these protesters as representing "Christianity"... I see them as representing extremists. This is basically the point, there are extremists in any religion...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/16/2010 2:46:04 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 2:46:04 PM   
thatsub


Posts: 176
Joined: 5/3/2010
Status: offline 		I can't believe this thread is 13 pages long.

It was not a mosque, it was a cultural center. A place to study and learn, not a religious place of worship.



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Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 2:47:23 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

I can't believe this thread is 13 pages long.

It was not a mosque, it was a cultural center. A place to study and learn, not a religious place of worship.




Then email Yahoo news and ask for a correction, and the rest of the news organizations that are reporting it this way

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:35:57 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls
but this nation was founded as a predominantly Christian nation...

Bullshit.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls
I have no problem with freedom of religion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls
In this case, this Mosque near the Ground Zero sight is totally inappropriate, and every council member including the Mayor should have their heads examined.

These two statements are directly contradictory. Either you are for the first amendment or you’re against it. Only allowing people to practice their religion if you consider it appropriate is not freedom of religion. Are the actions of this Muslim group inappropriate; maybe. Are they divisive; clearly. Are they guaranteed by the Constitution; absolutely.

Obama is completely correct to stand up to those who want to tear down the first amendment and make his support of the Constitution clear.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:36:53 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub
I can't believe this thread is 13 pages long.

It was not a mosque, it was a cultural center. A place to study and learn, not a religious place of worship.


I know that, you know that, and most liberals and moderates know that. But conservatives.....DONT. They are more a simple minded creature when it comes to 'thinking for self'. They see this building, as an insult to them personally; but are completely 'fine' with the largest embassy for the USA, to be built in Iraq....the center of the Middle East.

Yes, the owners are US Citziens, yes, they own the land. Yes, they TOO, are allowed 'Freedom of Religion'. Conservatives blame this group of muslims, for the extremists who attacked this country on 9/11/2001. Conservatives (as I and others have pointed out), conviently ignore the extremists who attacked this country on 4/19/1995. And why is that? Because Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichlas were....CONSERVATIVE....Christian, milita men. To this day, gunshops, shooting ranges and churchs are allowed to be built within Oklahoma City limits, without a second thought. There is not a single conservative, who can contest that fact. If they REALLY are against this mosque; then why are then not ALSO, against those buildings being built and used in Oklahoma City for the last 15 years?


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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:38:30 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
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Status: offline 		Got steel so you are opposed to all hate speech laws, and think cross burning should be 100% legal?

as well as Child Pornography?



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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:40:00 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		Cross burning and Child pornography are actions not speech.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:44:27 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Status: offline 		FR:

I haven't read all 13 pages so this may be somewhere in this thread:

While Obama may support it,one of  his fiercest defenders does not. Harry Reid. As surprised as I was to hear the release from Reid, I applaud him for opposing the ground zero Mosque.
This isn't a political issue, nor a religious issue. It's an issue of compassion and human decency, IMO.

             mbmbn

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:47:01 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Joether, because it is not a city limits thing, but right next to the actuall site.


Such nonsense comparisons you use to make your weak points.


But apperantly they didn't have the funds to build the Mosque( which is indeed what it was, they are all cultral centers of learning, this one was designed to acomodate thousands of people in prayer at the same time). and this was a bunch of hype to try to raise funds.


and why the insitance on the lie that it was not a mosque? Just beacuse it also has a bookstore and meeting rooms?

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:49:36 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Cross burning and Child pornography are actions not speech.



Neither is building a building.

Yet all 3 really are speech.




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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:51:40 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Cross burning and child porn have already been declared illegal.

Building a building has not.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 4:58:06 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Jeffff, I am responding to Got Steels claim,

"Either you are for the first amendment or you’re against it."

By "his standard" you are clearly against it.

So am I. By "real standards" I (and I assume you) both support the First amendment, even though we realise there are limits to it. You don't think I am supporting Child Porn or Cross Burnings, do you?

and sometimes building a building is illegal

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