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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:01:10 PM   
Jeffff


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Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		No, but I think it is a badly made point.

There are a number of reasons why there should not be a Mosque built there.

None of those reasons are legal though.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:12:17 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Okay there is a protest against a muslim community center 2 blocks from ground zero, but what about the mosque that is FOUR blocks from ground zero?

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:16:10 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Cross burning and Child pornography are actions not speech.



Neither is building a building.

Yet all 3 really are speech.





One is the filming of breaking a law. Burning a cross is a threat, it is illegal to threaten people... that is not protected "speech". Erecting a building is not against the law

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:17:58 PM   
Jeffff


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Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I don't know the answer. Except for the obvious

The answer is to realize that they too are Americans.

The answer is to realize that not every muslim hates us.

The answer is to love you neighbor as you love yourself.

Good luck with that. Between the real pain people feel and the propaganda that rages out there, those are not likely to happen.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:27:02 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		You're all serious about this shit aren't you?

Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all....

It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what....

I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values.

(Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....)

It's fucked up.  Truly fucked up.

On the other hand....I like things the way they are.

(What the fuck do I know?)

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:28:46 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

You're all serious about this shit aren't you?

Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all....

It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what....

I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values.

(Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....)

It's fucked up.  Truly fucked up.

On the other hand....I like things the way they are.

(What the fuck do I know?)




That's all nonsense, you know that right?

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:34:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Got steel so you are opposed to all hate speech laws, and think cross burning should be 100% legal?

as well as Child Pornography?

1. I am for free speech; just to clear up an inaccuracy the right to build an establishment of their religion is not a free speech issue. It's another part of the first amendment.

2. The violation of a child is not a matter of speech.

3. Does the KKK have the same free speech rights as you; yes. Does that involve starting fires on someone else’s private property; no.

3. Yes I am opposed to hate speech laws. We are all guaranteed equal protection under the law.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:44:10 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

or to be damned to hell for all of eternity.

It does have the ring of domestic abuse doesn't it. Love me or I'll make you suffer.

The exchange about submission at least had a tie-in with the ongoing discussion. This doesn't.

It's a direct response to your point. So if your point was on topic this would seem to be as well. If not, perhaps you should have started another thread.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:46:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Isn't "love me and follow me" a form of willing submission?

Is giving one's wallet to a mugger a form of willing submission or does the threat preclude consent?

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 5:57:49 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		FR

Michael Gerson, a former Bush 43 speechwriter, has an interesting column in today's Washington Post about the mosque.

quote:

Obama had no choice but the general path he took. No president, of any party or ideology, could tell millions of Americans that their sacred building desecrates American holy ground. This would understandably be taken as a presidential assault on the deepest beliefs of his fellow citizens. It would be an unprecedented act of sectarianism, alienating an entire faith tradition from the American experiment. If a church or synagogue can be built on a commercial street in Lower Manhattan, declaring a mosque off-limits would officially equate Islam with violence and terrorism. No president would consider making such a statement. And those commentators who urge the president to do so fundamentally misunderstand the presidency itself.


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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 6:02:46 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Got Steel, yet in many places burning a cross on Private property is illegal. Because of the message it sends.

And naming it after a mosque built in Europe on the grounds of a torn down Catherdral is a pretty offensive message to millions. Even the leaders realised it and changed the name.

Just pointing out that your blanket support or oppose it diatribe was nonsense.



And I will note, they didn't have the cash to build it in the first place. This was a publicity stunt from the get go.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 6:11:54 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

You're all serious about this shit aren't you?

Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all....

It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what....

I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values.

(Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....)

It's fucked up.  Truly fucked up.

On the other hand....I like things the way they are.

(What the fuck do I know?)



You are so joking.

If that is holy ground what do you worship there?

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 6:27:37 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

You're all serious about this shit aren't you?

Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all....

It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what....

I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values.

(Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....)

It's fucked up.  Truly fucked up.

On the other hand....I like things the way they are.

(What the fuck do I know?)




1) It is a community center, NOT a mosque.

2) It is two blocks away from ground zero, in the former Burlington Coat Factory building.

3) There is already a mosque 4 blocks from ground zero, do you want that closed?

4) You really dont believe that birther, Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy bullshit do you?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 6:48:43 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

My opinion means nothing in the broader scope of how the country leans. Means I didn't make the polls. I just read them. I can imagine however, that the republican strategists are loving the democratic support in a country where the vast majority of citizens identify themselves as Christian and have seen their faith constantly attacked by the left.


You see this as an attack on Christianity? Wow, I see any abridgment on the freedom of religion as an attack on all religions, including Christianity.... today it is Islam who is the minority faith in this country, tomorrow it could be Christianity that is the minority religion... Upholding the freedom of all religions protects all of them... even the ones that enjoy majority support at this moment in time... that might not be the case in 50 or 100 years from now


"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Not exactly on point and not intended to slander people opposed to the Islamic Community Center; rather an historic and haunting illustration of a very slippery slope.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/16/2010 7:16:34 PM >

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 6:59:04 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

Decided hit and run wasn't a nice thing to do. And since you didn't flame me...

No, I don't think opposing it is a political stastement so much as it's people who were badly hurt having the excuse for the attack rubbed in their faces. See, the group who did the attack was screaming "Allah Akbar" and the group with which they were affiliated, and who take "credit" say that they're doing this for their religion. And now they are rubbing it in the faces of the people who suffered.

Shall we open a biergarten next to Auschwitz? Erect a statue of the National Guard at Kent State? Maybe we can put up a statue over at VA Tech's library and dorm to mark the accomplishments of Asian students?

The point is, it's in really bad form. And in a place where people can't wait to scream "thought crime," having those same people (who largely mock religion) to stand up to defend freedom of religion is fucking laughable. But so is having a president who spits on the constitution, then orates how important it is--when it serves himself.


We are at war with Islam then?

Can we have back the 4300 young American lives we sacrificed to free the Islamic Iraqi people from the bad man Mr S Hussein? Or don't you see the irony in protesting an Islamic Center (which is not visible from GZ) while giving up the lives of 4300 Americans for Islam?

Is there something written in the Constitution regarding bad form?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 7:03:36 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I can imagine however, that the republican strategists are loving the democratic support in a country where the vast majority of citizens identify themselves as Christian and have seen their faith constantly attacked by the left.


Surely you're not suggesting Republican strategists would ever stoop to politicizing the 9/11 tragedy or inflaming fear of Islam?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 7:07:14 PM   
Elisabella


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

We are at war with Islam then?



We're not at war with Islam now, we're at war with fundamentalists who do stupid things in Afghanistan and we deposed a secular tyrant in Iraq.

The best way to fight fundamentalist Islam is to encourage Islam to modernize.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 7:10:12 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Are there really people who don't think this is a political statement? To build a mosque where fragments of body parts of the victims are still buried?


There are two Christian Churches closer than the proposed Islamic Center and visible from GZ. The Islamic Center will not be visible. There are other buildings in between.

A list of Islamic body parts and fragments buried at Ground Zero:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm





< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/16/2010 7:27:58 PM >

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 7:10:58 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I can imagine however, that the republican strategists are loving the democratic support in a country where the vast majority of citizens identify themselves as Christian and have seen their faith constantly attacked by the left.


Surely you're not suggesting Republican strategists would ever stoop to politicizing the 9/11 tragedy or inflaming fear of Islam?



Republicans would and do stoop to politicizing 9/11, and amplify the anti-Muslim sentiment voiced by groups like the tea party, libertarians and neocons in this country.

But bring up something about McVeigh and Nichols being conservative republicans and the fact they worked together to blow up the Oklahoma City Federal Building and you get chewed out for grouping all conservatives in the fanatic category.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 7:14:46 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

We are at war with Islam then?



We're not at war with Islam now, we're at war with fundamentalists who do stupid things in Afghanistan and we deposed a secular tyrant in Iraq.

The best way to fight fundamentalist Islam is to encourage Islam to modernize.


I agree Elisabella. I was attempting rhetorical sarcasm.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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