RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (Full Version)

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JstAnotherSub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:23:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

This showed up on a friends Facebook this morning.  Good, bad or ugly, it captures my thoughts on this subject better than I could ever say my self.


"After talking with a very good buddy, here's our conclusions about the Mosque @ Ground Zero - it is the same as putting a Shinto Temple by the USS Arizona Memorial, a KKK Meeting house near MLK's tombstone in Atlanta or a US Calvary Memorial @ Wounded Knee! Now, who doesn't understand the emotions that are reaching a b...oiling point by this insensitivity! Dumbshits - that's who's supporting this Mosque - get a clue"

Strange, that the Facebook quote is almost identical to an editorial on Time magazine's web site.

Guess what, folks.  They already hold prayers in a building on the site.  No one had a problem until the new plans came out.

Could be from there.  She didn't claim to have written it and neither did I.

I still think a better place could be found to build it, but I also believe in their rights to build it there.

Sighs.  Too many areas of gray sometimes.



juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:23:52 PM)

quote:

I did not not say the US was "founded" on Christianity but in the mindset of the Founders, Buddism, Hindusim, Islam... we're cults at best and not Religions at all and they did not place in their "modern civilzation" at the time.


The founders were much more educated than you give them credit for...

They were heavily influenced by Greco-Roman ideas.



FatDomDaddy -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:28:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Well it's damn naive to think that this Mosque isn't a slap in the face to Americans. It's a freaking touchdown victory dance.


I think it is a touchdown victory dance for Osama bin Laden that he fostered such hate and intolerance in OUR people... so much so that we are willing to violate our core principles because we are afraid of moderate Islam, something that he was trying to accomplish...

We had much sympathy in the Muslim world after 9/11.... we squandered it by striking out at the wrong people and demonizing others that never wanted to harm us.... how very sad we are such sheep and so easy to manipulate


I guess you misses all of the street celebrations going on all over the Muslim World, banging pots and shooting off machine guns as if the Pistons won the Title.

I believe the property owner have an absoute RIGHT to build thier mosque.

But I don't have to stand up for it. It's also my right to condem it and point out to "useful idiots" their own naïveté.



pogo4pres -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:29:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

If there was ever any doubt that Obama unconditionally supports Islam in America, there shouldn't be now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100814/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_ground_zero_mosque_obama

I have no problem with freedom of religion, but this nation was founded as a predominantly Christian nation, and when I see the radical Islamic terrorists that are still intent on destroying America, there is no doubt in my mind who I will support.

In this case, this Mosque near the Ground Zero sight is totally inappropriate, and every council member including the Mayor should have their heads examined.



I have asked you this before dude, Please cite the article or amendment of the United States Constitution that says this is a "christian nation".   Your assertion is both asinine and incorrect.

Now on to a different rant, I live in NJ less than 90  miles from ground zero, and I am about fucking sick of people that live no-fucking-where near it to still be obsessing over it.  I stopped obsessing almost immediately as having been in the US Air Force I know a little more about terrorism than the average civilian.  Hell I probably knew as much as Condi Rice did when she was appointed as Secretary of State.  Regardless of what my knowledge base may be you all in the "heartland" ( sometimes derisively a/k/a as "flyover country") had better get the idea that this was not the worst that could have been done.   This was a "show attack" they could have easily doubled or tripled the amount of planes & hijackers and gone after a nuclear power plant or two and taken out the Grand Coulee and Hoover dams.   Think very hard about what the missing electric generation of those would mean, let alone the radioactive mess from the nukes and the devastation down stream from those dams.  Think about say Phoenix in a constant state of brown out or New Orleans, or Atlanta, those cities are practically unlivable WITH air conditioning, think of what they would be like with out.

I have had the friend of a friend die in 9-11, and I have learned to get the fuck over it and move on maybe, just maybe, it is time for every one else to do so.  A mosque? So fucking what, why is a mosque any different, as some one else pointed out, than a synagogue, or a Roman Catholic church??



Constitutionally,
Some Knucklehead in NJ

Edited to fix a run on sentance



juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:33:17 PM)

quote:

I guess you misses all of the street celebrations going on all over the Muslim World, banging pots and shooting off machine guns as if the Pistons won the Title.

I believe the property owner have an absoute RIGHT to build thier mosque.

But I don't have to stand up for it. It's also my right to condem it and point out to "useful idiots" their own naïveté.


I missed that, yes

I know there were certain media outlets that exaggerated a few whackos who did that, but most HUMAN BEINGS hate wanton violence and death.

Would you want to be associated with people who wrongly celebrate the deaths of Afghanis? There is always a small group of clueless people who celebrate the death of innocents... to paint 1 billion people with that broad brush shows how successful Osama bin Laden really was... how sad



DCWoody -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:35:29 PM)

~

[image]local://upfiles/347591/CFA45412F9EB4A73BEC2CF190B121501.jpg[/image]



Aneirin -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I did not not say the US was "founded" on Christianity but in the mindset of the Founders, Buddism, Hindusim, Islam... we're cults at best and not Religions at all and they did not place in their "modern civilzation" at the time.




quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

You did see the quote about the Treaty of Tripoli?  And the Enlightenment held the following beliefs:

" It stressed reason, logic, criticism and freedom of thought over dogma, blind faith and superstition. Logic wasn’t a new invention, having been used by the ancient Greeks, but it was now included in a worldview which argued that empirical observation and the examination of human life could reveal the truth behind human society and self, as well as the universe. All were deemed to be rational and understandable. The Enlightenment held that there could be a science of man, and that the history of mankind was one of progress, which could be continued with the right thinking. "

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

No, it wasn't founded as a Christian nation.  The founders were well acquainted with the problems of state-supported religions in Europe.  The government only gets involved with religious practice when laws are broken. 

How far away from the site would you consider appropriate?  A mile?  Off the island completely? 



Not really... The Founding Father's believed for the most part Religion = Christianty. While lip service may have been paid to Judiasm, it was likely the idea of Buddism, Hinduism or Islam ever being open and welcomed in an enlightened, Western Civilization would have seemed comical.







Cults ?

Let's take Hinduism for example, do you know how old that belief system is ?

It is the oldest known belief system in the world, the ancient Vedic civilisation practised it in the Indus valley 6000 years ago and then it was already an established religion. There is plenty of evidence to show it went back into prehistoric times, i.e., before Christianity and it's offshoot Islam.

Buddhism, about sixth century BCE, so that leaves Christianity and Islam as the youngest and the most trouble over the past two thousand years. Islam and Christianity having their similarites, which basically means Islam is Christianity and vice versa, they arrive from the same source.



truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:39:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Obama seems intent on committing political suicide. This will not be forgotten in 2012.



Why take just your word for it? (LOL)

Many Democrats are getting tired of walking the plank for this increasingly aloof, detatched figurehead, including this one:


former Rep. Martin Frost (D-Tex.), who once ran the House Democratic campaign arm, wrote in POLITICO’s Arena. “While a defensible position, it will not play well in the parts of the country where Democrats need the most help.”



Vendaval -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:42:09 PM)

What the article actually says is that Muslims have the same freedom of religion as any other faith in the US.


"WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says Muslims have the right to build a mosque near ground zero in New York, but he's not saying whether he thinks it's a good idea to do so.

Obama's comment Saturday during a trip to Florida expanded on a statement he made at a White House dinner on Friday. At that event, he said Muslims have the same right to freedom of religion as everyone else in America.

Obama said Saturday that he didn't comment on "the wisdom" of putting a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks — but rather was commenting on "the right" to build a mosque there."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100814/ap_on_go_pr_



TheHeretic -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:43:20 PM)

FR... (sorta [;)] )

I think the President was quite correct in his remarks. I also think his choice of how to make them displays as much ignorance and insensitivity as was shown by the developers who chose this site. Roughly 2/3 of the country think this is a bad idea, yet the concerns of an overwhelming majority of his citizenry rate only a casual dismissal, never to be hinted at again. Rather than seeking to bring his audience to an understanding of the opposition, as a seeker of common ground might do, he simply preaches to the choir. White House transcript here. Not much like his speech at West Point, huh? Politically, this was piss-poor planning and decision making. He has taken the path of increased polarization for no good reason, whatsoever.

Of course anyone can build any church they like, wherever the zoning allows. Kind of a "duh," even. This discussion shouldn't be about that. This about a complete lack of empathy and sensitivity on the part of a religion that demands tolerance on pain of "I keel you!"

This lack of sensitivity isn't just the location, but the act of building so close while Ground Zero remains a hole. To build an Islamic center in the shadow of something that rises tall, proud, and whole from that place would be an expression of all those honorable and righteous statements President Obama made at his iftar dinner, to build one so near the open wound that still remains is just dense and dumb on the part of the people who decided to put it there.




Vendaval -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:46:12 PM)

You are so wrong on this. Hinduism, Buddism, Judaism and Islam are all major world religions. Pick up any world religion text book at a college bookstore or do some basic research.

And in the "modern civilization" at the time slavery was still legal as was killing someone accused of witchcraft.




quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I did not not say the US was "founded" on Christianity but in the mindset of the Founders, Buddism, Hindusim, Islam... we're cults at best and not Religions at all and they did not place in their "modern civilzation" at the time.





flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

No, it wasn't founded as a Christian nation.  The founders were well acquainted with the problems of state-supported religions in Europe.  The government only gets involved with religious practice when laws are broken. 

How far away from the site would you consider appropriate?  A mile?  Off the island completely? 



Not really... The Founding Father's believed for the most part Religion = Christianty. While lip service may have been paid to Judiasm, it was likely the idea of Buddism, Hinduism or Islam ever being open and welcomed in an enlightened, Western Civilization would have seemed comical.




How then do you explain Jefferson's writing on what he meant in writing the Virgina Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom?



truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:50:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The New Yorker has an interesting piece about the proposed mosque.


They do not mention the name of the proposed mosque, the historical significance of that name, the widespread Islamic tradition of erecting mosques at the scene of their military victories... I could go on, but why bother? Evidently you find the whitest of whitewashed PCism... interesting.




truckinslave -> RE: ABM Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:52:59 PM)

quote:

I live in Chicago, the fucking heart of the heartland.


The heartland is not a city.

60+% of us agree with the 'Cuda on this one.
Loathe away.



Jeffff -> RE: ABM Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:55:11 PM)

I refudiate your post.



truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:59:22 PM)

quote:

Christian/Islamic tolerance&cohabitation has been around since they have, whereever the borders met.


Christian/Islamic warfare has existed since the two first met, at the specific insistence of Mohammed.

Christians think of islam as merely a religion, but it is so much more.



Jeffff -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 12:59:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave


former Rep. Martin Frost (D-Tex.), who once ran the House Democratic campaign arm, wrote in POLITICO’s Arena. “While a defensible position, it will not play well in the parts of the country where Democrats need the most help.”



So right and wrong have no place in your political world?

There is only the party? As long as the party is victorious it is ok?



truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 1:00:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Yes, radical islamic terrorists are to Islam, what the KKK are to Christianity.




I guess... if a score of predominately Christian Nation states, supported and funded the KKK and the KKK numbered in the millions and if the KKK had armies with modern weapons that included things that could take out thousands of people at time and if the KKK was working on atomic weapons... then sure.... I guess you could say that.


What FDD said so well!!



Jeffff -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 1:01:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Christian/Islamic tolerance&cohabitation has been around since they have, whereever the borders met.


Christian/Islamic warfare has existed since the two first met, at the specific insistence of Mohammed.

Christians think of islam as merely a religion, but it is so much more.




Oh please enlighten us with your vast knowledge of the history of Islam and how it relates to Christianity.


Seriously, if it is more than a religion what is it?



nephandi -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/14/2010 1:02:01 PM)

Greetings

quote:

In this case, this Mosque near the Ground Zero sight is totally inappropriate, and every council member including the Mayor should have their heads examined.


I am Pagan, let us say a Pagan snapped and decided to go old school Celt on a bunch of pepole burning them alive. Would it then be inappropriate for other Pagans, pepole who was as appealed by the violence to build a ritual space near where the violence happened? What you forget is that most Muslims are as appalled by the terrorist attacks on 9/11 as other Americans, and other pepole around the world. Muslims did not do the attack, some crazy zealots did.

quote:

I have no problem with freedom of religion, but this nation was founded as a predominantly Christian nation, and when I see the radical Islamic terrorists that are still intent on destroying America, there is no doubt in my mind who I will support.


Actually you are saying here that you do have a problem with freedom of religion, as it is okey in your mind that pepole have other religions as long as they remember that Christians come first.

I wish you well



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