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RE: socialist health care - 8/25/2010 6:28:39 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I wouldn't be so comfortable where ability to pay has to be established first.

I wouldn't either. Thankfully I live in a country where someone who is brought into the er having a heart attack would be treated before anyone ever brought up the ability to pay.

That's funny, because when I was transported by ambulance to the ER for a painful, but non-life threatening, injury my first stop  before the ER was an office to determine my payment method while I sat there in pain.

I've had a few ER visits this year, and within an hour (while I was being treated!) I had to give them a credit card to pay for my co-pay.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: socialist health care - 8/25/2010 9:28:55 PM   
Aneirin


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These people that Americans don't want to pay for because they live unhealthy lifestyles, who says they are going to need more healthcare than any other, or is it just assumed those that choose to live in a way others don't approve of are going to use too much of the goodness, and the healthy will be damned if they are going to pay for it, hardly goodwill and care for a fellow citizen is it, well one thing in life is certain, you reap what you sow.

The other thing about those who live unhealthy lifestyles, be it booze, tobacco etc, I take it in the US these products are taxed, if they are, those that use these products in excess are paying more tax into the system. That being so, do you not think that a person who pays more tax in should be allowed to draw on healthcare when they need it, or is it, they can pay the extra tax for their lifestyle , but they can't have the healthcare ?

If a product is available legally in a country and tax is reaped from it, then the users of those products should have access to any universal healthcare, as their considered unhealthy lifestyles are caused by the availability of government permitted products.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/25/2010 10:09:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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I found this. Hope you enjoy and really read the whole thing. There are a few parts i will include here.


WHAT IS SINGLE PAYER?
Single payer refers to a way of financing health care, which includes both the collection of money for health care and reimbursement of providers for health care costs. In a single payer system, both the collection of funds and the reimbursement are the responsibility of one entity: the government. The government collects funds from individuals and businesses, mainly in the form of taxes, and the government reimburses providers for health care services delivered to individuals enrolled in the public health insurance program.
In the United States, there are multiple payers, not a single payer. The collection of money for health care is a joint responsibility of the private insurance industry, which collects premiums and other payments from individuals and businesses, and the government, which collects taxes from individuals and businesses. Similarly, reimbursement responsibilities fall on both the private insurance industry, which reimburses providers for health care services delivered to privately insured individuals, and the government, which reimburses providers for health care services delivered to publicly insured individuals (e.g. people enrolled in Medicare, Medicaid, S-CHIP, or the VA).
Denmark, Sweden, and Canada are example of countries with single payer financing of health care. There is also a single payer system in America: the Medicare program, which is the health insurance program for almost every American aged 65 and over. A provider taking care of a Medicare patient has only one entity to bill: the government. In contrast, a provider has multiple entities to bill when dealing with privately insured individuals due to the large number of private insurance companies in America.
Importantly, the term “single payer” is different from “socialized medicine” and “universal health care.” Socialized medicine refers to a system like the National Health Service of the U.K., in which the mechanisms of delivery of health care are owned by the government. That is, the government owns the health care facilities and physicians work for the government. In contrast, the mechanisms of delivery of health care in a single payer system are not necessarily owned by the government. Physicians can be either in private practice or public practice, and hospitals can be both publicly or privately owned. In Canada, for example, physicians are predominantly in private practice, while hospitals are both public and private. As another example, American physicians and hospitals that take care of Medicare patients are usually private. Single payer does not specify a health care delivery mechanism; it specifies a health care financing mechanism.

The term “universal health care”, in a general sense, refers to providing every citizen of a country with health insurance. Although universal health care connotes a national public insurance program to some people, there are in reality a variety of ways of achieving universal health care, some of which are predominantly public, and others of which use a mixture of public and private elements. Single payer is one way of achieving universal health care, but other ways include the multi-payer systems of Germany and Japan.

FEATURES OF SINGLE PAYER SYSTEMS
Single payer systems are heterogeneous; Canada’s system is different from Sweden’s system, which is different from U.S. Medicare, and so on. The well-known Proposal of the Physicians’ Working Group for Single Payer National Health Insurance illustrates one way single payer might look in the United States. The following discussion is based on the details of this proposal.1
Eligibility and Benefits:
Every resident of the United States would be enrolled in a public insurance system (the National Health Insurance or “NHI” program). Coverage would include all necessary medical care, including mental health, long-term illness, dental services, and prescription drugs. Coverage decisions would be determined by a national board of experts and community representatives; unnecessary or ineffective interventions would not be covered. Patients would not be billed for medical care covered under the NHI program; rather, all costs for covered services would be paid by the NHI program.
Private insurance that covers services covered by the NHI program would be forbidden, although private insurance would be available to insure patients for services not covered under the NHI program.
Financing:
The program would be funded by combining current sources of government health spending (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) into a single fund with modest new taxes, such as a small payroll tax or earmarked income taxes. While taxes will increase for individual citizens, the increase will be offset by reductions in premiums and out-of-pocket spending. Employees may also receive higher wages from employers, who will no longer have to pay as much for health benefits as part of employee compensation (i.e. instead of paying employees in health benefits, employers will pay higher wages).
Hospitals:
Hospitals would receive a global budget from the NHI program, which means that they would receive a lump sum to cover all operating expenses every month. Hospitals would need to find a way to stay within their global budget while still providing all necessary medical care.
The global budget for the hospital would not cover “capital expenditures” (e.g. facility expansions, purchasing new equipment). Such expenditures would be funded by the NHI program separately from the global budget. Approval for capital expenditures would be based on community needs to prevent over-concentration of technology and facilities in one area.
Physicians:
Physicians would remain in private practice or continue to work for private hospitals. In terms of reimbursement, physicians could choose one of three ways of being reimbursed:
• Fee-for-service: A national fee schedule will be negotiated each year between the NHI program and provider organizations (e.g. medical associations).
• Salary at health care facility: Physicians who work for hospitals and other health care facilities would receive an annual salary.
• Salary within a capitated group: A group practice or nonprofit HMO that employs physicians would receive payments from the NHI to pay their physicians. These payments would be capitated – that is, a payment would be made every month for each patient enrolled with a physician to cover the cost of taking care of patients.
Medications and supplies:
An expert panel would create and maintain a national formulary of prescription drugs covered under the NHI program. Prices for drugs and supplies would be negotiated with the NHI program, which would get a good price from manufacturers due to its bulk purchasing power.
............

Even with all these caveats in mind, there is little doubt that the administrative costs in America are higher than that in Canada. More importantly, much evidence also suggests that a large portion of administrative costs in the U.S. go to functions that likely do not improve patient care. In support of this notion, a 2005 study showed that in California, private insurers devote 20-22% of their spending to “billing and insurance-related functions” (BIR). While the definition and measurement of BIR is potentially controversial, one conclusion that can be comfortably drawn from the study is that physicians, hospitals, and insurers devote a large amount of money to handling claims and hiring administrative staff to deal with billing.9 These costs, along with costs like marketing and advertising, are among the administrative costs that would be saved by switching to a single-payer system. The specific amount saved would vary according to the design and functions of the new system.

...........

ADVANTAGES OF SINGLE PAYER TO VARIOUS GROUPS OF PEOPLE
The benefits of single payer are numerous, but they do not accrue to all sectors of society. Clearly, private health insurance companies do not stand to gain from a single payer system, as their role would be dramatically minimized. Furthermore, the pharmaceutical industry does not stand to gain from a single payer system because of the potential for price controls and bulk purchasing.
For most Americans, though, single payer would represent a clear improvement over the current system:
Advantages to patients

• Improved health. The most prominent benefit of single payer is that patients will be able to access health care with minimal financial barriers. This improved access will increase health by increasing preventive/primary care and allowing patients to afford their treatment regimens.
• Free choice of provider. Patients will have free choice to choose their doctor. In the current system, not every provider accepts every form of health insurance, and the existence of managed care preferred provider networks is an impediment to free choice of providers.
• Portability of coverage. In the current system, insurance status is linked to employment. In a single payer system, a person can go from job to job without experiencing interruptions in health insurance coverage. De-linking insurance status with employment will also increase the number of small businesses, as there are many people who refrain from starting their own businesses because they are afraid to lose their health insurance (the “job lock” phenomenon).15

Advantages to physicians
• Restoration of clinical autonomy: The United States arguably has some of the most intrusive regulation of physician behavior of any industrialized country.16 This regulation comes mainly through private insurance companies, particularly managed care companies that require pre-approval for interventions and institute heavy utilization reviews. In a single payer system, physicians will be relieved from the burden of these regulations, increasing their clinical autonomy.
• Lower malpractice premiums: Currently, a significant portion of malpractice jury awards are devoted to future medical costs for the patient. Under a single payer system, this percentage would decrease, as the government would pay for these future medical costs.8 In addition, a single payer system may be able to decrease medical errors and therefore the number of malpractice suits by increasing continuity of care. That is, patients would not shuttle from doctor to doctor because they change insurance companies or their insurance company alters its preferred provider network.
• Improved patient care. Physicians will be able to make clinical decisions based on best practices, as the influence of a patient’s financial circumstances will be decreased. Physicians will also enjoy increased compliance by patients, who will be able to afford the medications and interventions prescribed to them.
• Simplified billing. Since physicians will have only one entity to bill, billing will be greatly simplified. Physicians will save money on overhead because they will not have to hire to hire as many administrative staff to deal with billing.

Advantages to businesses
• Decreased health care costs. In 2005, the average employer-based health insurance premium for a family of four was $10,880, while the premium was $4,024 for an individual.17 Under a single payer system, businesses will no longer be required to cover the vast majority of health insurance premiums for their employees. Depending on the specific proposal, businesses might be required to fund the new health care system through a payroll tax, but for most businesses,such a payroll tax is likely to cost less than providing health insurance for employees.
• Equal playing field. The businesses that stand to lose money in a single payer system are those that do not currently provide health insurance. Workers in such businesses either enroll in Medicaid, which is taxpayer-funded, or they become uninsured and receive uncompensated care, which is predominantly financed by taxpayer money. Moreover, businesses that do not provide health insurance gain an advantage over businesses that do provide health insurance. Single payer would eliminate this advantage, thus leveling the playing field for businesses.
• Improved global competitiveness. The relief of the health care burden on businesses will help stimulate the economy and improve the global competitiveness of U.S. businesses. Currently, U.S. businesses are a competitive disadvantage to foreign companies, which have lower health care costs and therefore lower prices on their products.18


http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Libraries/Committee_Docs/SinglePayer101.sflb.ashx

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RE: socialist health care - 8/25/2010 11:43:09 PM   
Vendaval


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So who is left then? Of couse some of these numbers will overlap but still...

Estimates -
Obesity, 34% of the US population
Smoking, 18%-23%
Alcoholics, 7.5%
Drug addicts, 9/4%


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/overwt.htm

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4559

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CXH/is_2_23/ai_59246569/

http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/treatmeth.html



quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
In the US, insurance companies do the best they can to avoid paying. Many Americans are offended by the idea of universal health care. They don't like the idea of paying for health care for smokers, alcoholics, drug users, and the obese.



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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 5:19:55 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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I am SO in favor of Single Payer. Cut out the parasitic middlemen (because that's what they are, parasites. Private insurance companies add absolutely no value at all; rather, they siphon off money that could be going to patient care) and let there be one reimburser - the government.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 5:28:23 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I am SO in favor of Single Payer. Cut out the parasitic middlemen (because that's what they are, parasites. Private insurance companies add absolutely no value at all; rather, they siphon off money that could be going to patient care) and let there be one reimburser - .


to piss away even more money with their incompetence.



FYP

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 5:36:36 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Back atcha, Gomer.

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“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 5:53:55 PM   
Lucylastic


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Sounds like you need a better run government system than not having healthcare for everyone...
Take it out of the hands of the bean counters, pencil pushers and the corrupt and greeedy health insurance people
things could only be better for the patient


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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 5:58:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Sounds like you need a better run government system


There is no such thing as a large scale well run government system.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:03:17 PM   
thornhappy


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Absolutely.  Everyone know that the government is evil personified.  Full of evil people.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:12:06 PM   
Lucylastic


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Id rather my money go to the government than insurance people. Absolutely no contest.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:13:40 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Id rather my money go to the government than insurance people. Absolutely no contest.


And Id rather give mine to a homeless person than the government, even booze and cigarettes would be more worthwhile than what the government does with it.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:35:18 PM   
Lucylastic


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aaaah but would you allow him medical care

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:38:54 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Absolutely.  Everyone know that the government is evil personified.  Full of evil people.

Yep, the Gummint ain't made up of real people that own homes, have kids, go to church, pay taxes, and so on. They all be zombie clones from Area 51. Twooly Ebil.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:49:03 PM   
BKSir


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Another thing that many tend to forget is that a great many of the people who are would receive the benefits of a single payer system are tax payers as well.  I don't have benefits from my job yet, but I still pay taxes.  Guess what, my taxes would be going into the same pot to pay for my health care and yours and everyone elses too.  On top of that, I would be healthier due to simple maintenance care which I can't currently afford, thus I would be able to work more, needing less time off, and be able to pay even more taxes.  And I don't mind this at all. 

And that bullshit about "Oh, well if everyone is just handed health care, then why would they even need to go to work?".  Yeah...  they have health care, but they still need to do things like pay rent and eat.  Pretty good reasons to go to work, no?  Let's stop being silly, pull faux news's dicks out of our mouths and actually look at the numbers for once on our own, shall we?


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RE: socialist health care - 8/26/2010 6:52:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

aaaah but would you allow him medical care


On a voluntary basis? Why wouldnt I?

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 3:57:02 AM   
DCWoody


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@BKsir, americans already pay more for healthcare from the govt (ie taxes), to cover...whatever% of the population than we pay in the UK altogether, to cover 100% of population and privately.

@willbe "There is no such thing as a large scale well run government system."
This is, to me, obviously incorrect.....but it is the most logical argument against, usa govt isn't exactly famed for competence. Realise however, that things do not have to be that way. There are....as has been mentioned.....many people, from all wealthy nations...who do have UHC systems....even the badly run ones are better than the american system. Just to mindlessly say 'it wouldn't work' for whatever reason is rather missing the point that it DOES work. Everywhere. Of the ~200 nations in the world, you can not name even one, which has a worse system for the money put in.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 4:07:23 AM   
Sanity


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The UK has got all kinds of socialist programs. And the UK has gone totally broke, too.  I believe it was Thatcher who once said that the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@BKsir, americans already pay more for healthcare from the govt (ie taxes), to cover...whatever% of the population than we pay in the UK altogether, to cover 100% of population and privately.

@willbe "There is no such thing as a large scale well run government system."
This is, to me, obviously incorrect.....but it is the most logical argument against, usa govt isn't exactly famed for competence. Realise however, that things do not have to be that way. There are....as has been mentioned.....many people, from all wealthy nations...who do have UHC systems....even the badly run ones are better than the american system. Just to mindlessly say 'it wouldn't work' for whatever reason is rather missing the point that it DOES work. Everywhere. Of the ~200 nations in the world, you can not name even one, which has a worse system for the money put in.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/27/2010 4:19:18 AM >


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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 5:10:48 AM   
Aneirin


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I suppose it all depends on your point of view as to what money and resources are for, the good of the singular at the expense of the many, or the good of the many and not much money around, me personally I feel there is no point in resources if we cannot all share what there is. I am for a poorer, but happier country than a wealthy country with extremes of rich and poor.

The UK might well be is shit street regards finance, but from all we hear here, Americas is in it deeper than us, which is worrying, because of what happens in America happens later everywhere else, the US economy has it's victims world wide.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 5:12:08 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's a principle....right to health care versus individualism.......oh and there's the practical aspect....it is assumed that health care is a key factor in empowerment


What you're talking about here is the crux of the problem...empowerment of a minority or smaller community versus empowerment of the individual who can afford it. when individualism (read: privatization) is run rampant, countries fall apart. Haiti is a fine example of a country that can't get it's shit together (in terms of government or social forward movement) because of a rabid need to "get ahead" as an individual and the result is that a large number of Western countries have been able to come in and basically fuck with the Haitian people.

There's a balance between these two ideals. It's essentially the balance between capitalism and socialism. The U.S. is struggling with this and we're cracking under the weight of it. The "Right" wants privatization and individual rights, but only if you can afford it. The "Left" wants other extreme. And all of this is being "lead" by greedy politicians out for themselves and willing to fuck over the populace that voted them in.

Health Care is only a symptom of the problem. The balance hasn't been struck and United States Citizens are suffering for it.

boi


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