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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 11:34:13 AM   
tazzygirl


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Grins

But i bet the US can kick some Brit butt on health care if we ever convert to a preventative care system.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 11:39:48 AM   
DCWoody


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Nah. You'll never go for a socialist system like the NHS, will never be directly comparable. :)

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 11:51:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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I dont think we want that kind of system, to be honest. Most here just want affordable health care. A single payer system would cut right into the heart of the health care crisis.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 11:56:44 AM   
DCWoody


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"I dont think we want that kind of system, to be honest."

Me neither.

You should go French...I'd bet there's ample opportunity to get some big non-profit health insurance orgs going with the religious element over there.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 1:25:42 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

In case you didn't notice I'll repeat with figures: The UK govt spends 15.8% of revenue on the NHS, a high quality UHC system. The usa govt spends 18.5% of revenue on covering a minority of the population.


Usually "minority" means <50%, not the >90% of those who want to be covered and are not illegal.


I literally do not understand what you are trying to say.
It might help if I tell ya that AFAIK the USA government programs cover ~30% of the population, which is a minority.



18.5% of GDP is not just the government portion that is the total expenditure on health care, (A statistic which is misleading to start with). I believe the 15.8% is NHS only, which isnt the total UK expenditure, there is some privately paid care, but close enough to total. Saying our 18.5% is only for 30% is simply wrong.


No, it's not wrong.

As I did say (and I did give my source), in the USA 18.5% of government revenue (not GDP, I didn't even mention GDP) goes on healthcare, to cover ~30% (I am very unsure on this exact figure, especially as the usa system is currently undergoing changes...I'm definitely not saying it's definitely 30%+-2, but ya get the general idea) of the population. 15.8% of government revenue goes on the NHS for 100% of the population (and the NHS is hell of a lot better than medicare even ignoring that one's universal and the other ain't).

per capita-
UK TOTAL spending (including private):3,129
USA government spending (just for whatever%(30ish?)):3505
USA TOTAL:7538

The UK system is much cheaper than the american.

I really feel like I'm repeating myself.



My bad that you are repeating yourself...I misread what you wrote. If I had read it correctly I would have dismissed it out of hand. % of government revenues is a meaningless comparison.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 1:47:03 PM   
DCWoody


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Now you're just being obtuse. I also gave the actual per person spending in international dollars.

If you want GDP, I only have (googling fast) older data, but in 2005 it was:
USA government spending to cover 29% of the population: 7.3% of GDP (total spending is 16% of GDP, far far more than any other nation on earth or elsewhere)
UK government spending to cover 100% of the population to a higher standard: 6.9% of GDP (total spending is 8.4% of GDP)


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 2:43:12 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Now you're just being obtuse. I also gave the actual per person spending in international dollars.

If you want GDP, I only have (googling fast) older data, but in 2005 it was:
USA government spending to cover 29% of the population: 7.3% of GDP (total spending is 16% of GDP, far far more than any other nation on earth or elsewhere)
UK government spending to cover 100% of the population to a higher standard: 6.9% of GDP (total spending is 8.4% of GDP)




I dont have time to look at the numbers right now but they make no sense. Also your characterization of "higher standard" is subjective at best, and generally wrong.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 4:38:36 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I dont have time to look at the numbers right now but they make no sense. Also your characterization of "higher standard" is subjective at best, and generally wrong.


Facts never make sense do they ?  Any chance of expanding on your theory that " higher standard" is generally wrong ?

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 5:04:09 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I dont have time to look at the numbers right now but they make no sense. Also your characterization of "higher standard" is subjective at best, and generally wrong.


Facts never make sense do they ?  Any chance of expanding on your theory that " higher standard" is generally wrong ?


Any chance on subtantiating your claim that it exists?

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 5:16:23 PM   
Lucylastic


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Polite you didnt think that would even be a remote possible really did you?

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 5:22:49 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Polite you didnt think that would even be a remote possible really did you?


He made the claim, he has to substantiate it. Thats the way debate works. I will easily show that the statistics he uses are misleading, incorrect or have nothing to do with the health care system.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 8:07:47 PM   
thornhappy


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Well....let's see 'em!

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RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 10:38:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@BKsir, americans already pay more for healthcare from the govt (ie taxes), to cover...whatever% of the population than we pay in the UK altogether, to cover 100% of population and privately.

@willbe "There is no such thing as a large scale well run government system."
This is, to me, obviously incorrect.....but it is the most logical argument against, usa govt isn't exactly famed for competence. Realise however, that things do not have to be that way. There are....as has been mentioned.....many people, from all wealthy nations...who do have UHC systems....even the badly run ones are better than the american system. Just to mindlessly say 'it wouldn't work' for whatever reason is rather missing the point that it DOES work. Everywhere. Of the ~200 nations in the world, you can not name even one, which has a worse system for the money put in.



What are the objective criteria for "better" or "worse".

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: socialist health care - 8/27/2010 10:51:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Grins

But i bet the US can kick some Brit butt on health care if we ever convert to a preventative care system.


Preventive health care in companies that have implemented them have shown spotty results at best. Broad brush preventive health care does not justify its costs. Care focused on specific risk groups can. Unfortunately "risk groups" are profiling, and you can be damn sure that the needed focus wont be there, as evidenced by the wasteful spending approach in the PPACA.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 2:16:10 AM   
tazzygirl


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In studies performed and paid for by insurance companies and HMO's. Give me a break. Even a child understands a bandaid and neosporin costs less than surgery. Cleaning a tooth is less costly then a root canal.

quote:

Preventive health care in companies that have implemented them have shown spotty results at best. Broad brush preventive health care does not justify its costs. Care focused on specific risk groups can. Unfortunately "risk groups" are profiling, and you can be damn sure that the needed focus wont be there, as evidenced by the wasteful spending approach in the PPACA.


Researchers estimate that 75% of all health care costs stem from preventable chronic health conditions, yet only 1% of the money spent on health care in the United States is devoted to protecting health and preventing illness and injury

http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2008/apr/07_0220.htm

And this was from a work place study deciding the efficacy of preventative screening... not care.

Potential complications from an absessed tooth.

Untreated tooth abscess is very dangerous. If abscessed tooth left untreated, the tooth infection can spread and you can lose your tooth or have other health problems. Left untreated, tooth abscess may compromise the immune system and in some cases may become life-threatening.

A tooth abscess complication includes tooth loss, jaw bone damage, neighboring tooth damage or loss, sinus problems, brain abscess, heart damage, hospitalization, coma, and even death.

Some more tooth abscess complications that have been very much explained already: Facial Disfigurement as it eats away the facial bones; teeth falling out as the tooth abscess destroys the jaw holding the tooth; the picture is pretty gruesome.

Here is the list of abscessed tooth complications:

Loss of the tooth
Spread of infection to soft tissue (facial cellulitis, Ludwig’s angina)
Spread of infection to the jaw bone (osteomyelitis of the mandible or maxilla)
Sinusitis, it is any infection or inflammation of the sinus cavities behind the nose and eyes. It is very common with an estimated 37 million cases annually in the USA. Symptoms vary according to which sinus cavity is infected.
Spread of infection to other areas of the body resulting in cerebral abscess, endocarditis, pneumonia, or other disorders
A rare abscessed tooth complications - Ludwig’s angina and mediastinitis. While a life-threatening deep neck infection is an uncommon complication of tooth abscess, dentists should be able to recognize the signs and symptoms. The patient should be examined for swelling below the inferior border of the mandible, fever, excessive trismus, floor of mouth or tongue elevations, and deviation of the pharyngeal walls. In addition, the signs of an impending airway disaster, including muffled voice, inability to tolerate secretions and protruding tongue, should be carefully evaluated. Quick referral to an oral and maxillofacial surgeon and early definitive care will minimize the morbidity and mortality of these serious infections.

The Worst Abscessed Tooth Danger - Death

Tooth abscess can cause the death of the tooth and it can literally be the death of you. If a tooth abscess if left untreated it can grow and spread through the soft tissue of the face and cause dramatic outward facial swelling called cellulitis.

If a person waits until the gum is so swollen that they have difficulty breathing or opening their mouth, the situation is very dangerous. It is not the “poison” of infection that makes the tooth abscess deadly, but its growth that can choke off our ability to breathe. That is the type of tooth abscess that can kill if left untreated.

Tooth Abscess Prevention

Prompt treatment of dental caries reduces the risk of tooth abscess. Traumatized teeth should be examined promptly by the dentist. Never leave tooth abscess to it’s own end and where-ever possible, get to a dentist as soon as possible.


http://worldental.org/gums/abscessed-tooth-complications-and-dangers/

Yes, willbe, there isnt a dentist in every house. Not everyone can afford the 200 plus to get a tooth pulled. People can die from the lack of this simple procedure.

THIS is the preventative care i was speaking of... not the smoking sessation classes employers want to devote their time and money into with the hopes of blindsiding their employees into thinking said company actually cares.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/28/2010 2:17:01 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 2:31:23 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I dont have time to look at the numbers right now but they make no sense. Also your characterization of "higher standard" is subjective at best, and generally wrong.


Facts never make sense do they ?  Any chance of expanding on your theory that " higher standard" is generally wrong ?


Any chance on subtantiating your claim that it exists?


I didnt claim anything, I asked if you could prove the point you made.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 2:36:23 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Polite you didnt think that would even be a remote possible really did you?


So far this week he has asked me to substantiate a claim I havent made, accused me of using strawman arguments, and tried to suggest I was breaking the TOS. Despite all that, he claims to be able to debate, which is odd because he refuses to show any proof of what he says is true.

But you are right Lucylicious, I didnt think it was remotely possible.

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RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 2:45:54 AM   
Lucylastic


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They are baiting ...pure n simple.
Im not biting anymore, altho I reserve the right to change that position. Sorceress is right in many ways and Im not into being manipulated or wound up .
blech
gives you a smewch
Im gonna enjoy my weekend:)  I hope you enjoy yours

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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Duchess Of Dissent
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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 2:49:48 AM   
Politesub53


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Lucy Lucy Lucy, English bank holiday weekend = rain. You have been away far too long......lol

Smooches back and despite the rain I will make the most of it.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: socialist health care - 8/28/2010 8:54:34 AM   
Hillwilliam


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During the runup to the health care vote in the house, The insurance industry was spending over a Million dollars every day to fight it.  I have a feeling they werent doing it because they care about us so much.

I DONT think the Obama plan is what we need but I DO think something revolutionary has to be done.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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