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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:00:26 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

OH Left out the Aptera which I also find cool enough but still the price and the range fall short.


Yeah I think we've established that last part so far anyway..Did you take a look at the Mitsi link..Did you google the California 1600 mile car thing?

It's coming and who knows..Maybe you won't have to sacrifice automobile fashion for a better way to live.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:06:43 PM   
Icarys


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Face it, oil is a finite resource and there are WAY too many cool things to do with it that dont include burning it. (Our entire chemical and plastics industries for example) If the oil gets scarce, they go down the tubes too.


Personally I hope it runs out then maybe the idiots will finally do something worthwhile instead of the snails pace and shallow greed directed paths they seem to walk on now.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:13:58 PM   
samboct


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"Sure...to what? First of all wind energy is now being assailed because it is claimed there is an increasing body of evidence that blade-rate vibration/noise (..caused by turbine blades passing the supporting post...) can be harmful.

Ethanol? you mean the fuel that takes more energy to produce than it provides?

Natural Gas? Yes...a big possibility but it has to be drilled-for...or created/processed from things like oil shales...

SOLAR? ...zero chance of running large transportation vehicles such as ships or trains from SOLAR...

coal? ..... doesn't burn well in your car....or your home furnace.....but it does work in power plants...but you'll piss-off Al Gore.......

wood? ......we have lost enough forests worldwide.....and Al will get even MORE pissed...

fuel cells? ....sure...and who will pay for them?....look recently at the price per kw for even the most basic fuel cells?

.....fusion? .....yes...my grandkids' grandkids MAY have that option....

The reality is that there is no realistic replacement for oil, so we need to develop ways to use it more efficiently. As for accidents....they are going to happen. Perhaps this one WAS sabotage....no one knows right now....but if you look back at history and see how many "gushers" (...not THAT kind of gusher.... lol..) were the "norm" in the early days of oil exploration.....you might be thankful it is done as efficiently and safely as it is the world over. Think we just drill here? ...look at these........ "

Sorry- but this is like saying that the automobile will never replace the horse- it doesn't have enough range, its tires need to get replaced too often, it doesn't know how to get itself back to the barn, etc. One other tidbit- the automobile was widely heralded as producing LESS pollution than the horse- and given the amount of horse urine and fecal matter that had to be disposed of daily- was absolutely right.

The nonsense about the wind industry producing "harmful turbines" is on par with electrical cables doing "things to the cows milk". Most turbines are far away from humans anyhow and on the east coast, we're looking at offshore installations.

While ethanol- politically mandated fuel that it is, certainly is not a long term viable alternative, that does not mean that other biofuel projects won't work. Biodiesel is already on par with diesel at $3/gal.

Natural gas- we've just had large finds that dramatically increase the US reserves of natural gas. Natural gas works really well in gas turbines- which in contrast to coal or oil fired plants, can spin up quickly, supplementing the gaps from renewable energy production. I gnash my teeth that $#@%@#$% GE is the company that's got this market cornered, but it's hard to argue with for a number of years. While not perfect, natural gas is a lower carbon fuel than either coal or oil.

Solar- well, there are two options here. We can either use mother nature to produce biofuels which get their chemical energy from photoysynthesis- i.e. the SUN, or we can try and do synthetic chemistry using photons to produce liquid fuels. Possible long term solution, but there's nothing short term that looks promising that I've seen.

Coal- the only way we know to safely sequester the carbon in coal is to leave it in the ground. Also reduces mining deaths and environmental damage from mine tailings and other operations.

Wood- actually, growing some types of wood for fuel could make sense. A fast growing poplar that could be processed into biodiesel is an interesting concept. This would require wood farming - not to different from any other crop. I think the poplar could be harvested in less than 2 years. We've got lots of available cropland in this country still.

Fuel cells- something of a chicken and egg problem- prices are high because the production volumes are small, and volumes are small because prices are high. However, fuel cells will likely remain an expensive option used when space is limited. They can make a lot more sense when combined with landfills.

Archer- to your point about electric vehicles....

Most of us don't take long trips on such a regular basis. The options are- keep a liquid fuel powered vehicle for those trips- or carry a trailer for your EV which has a small diesel generator in it. Basically it's current hybrid techology, done without linking the internal combustion motor to the drive train. Also note that most hybrids today really suck, with better batteries, the Prius should easily pull 80-100 mpg. Again- it's a problem that nobody's written a contract that says if you provide such and such performance- we'll buy it in volume. The post office actually had a lot to do with developing aviation in terms of blind flying and improved aircraft as well as passenger lines- carrying the mail paid the bills to start. We need to do something similar....


Sam

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:19:08 PM   
Archer


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Well the long range stuff is experimental cars not something ready for production, or even replication. Many of them are single seaters that you can't even get into and out of without a crew on site to unbolt you. R&D cars are cool and they need to exist and they push the technology and lead us to ways to make production line models better.

I'm all good with the idea, I'm just expressing what I expect from a car, any car. I want to be able to drive 3,000 miles in 3 days with 2 drivers running shifts. If the car can't do that then I can't have it as my only car. and I believe that the American public has a pretty similar expectation. I could have a 100 mile range electric for a second car but it could never be my only car. Currently the price point of $25,000 gets you 100-120 miles per charge and 6 hour charge times. That is what is available, if you want the 250- 300 mile range you pay $100,000, not in most people's budget for a car.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:31:54 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well the long range stuff is experimental cars not something ready for production, or even replication. Many of them are single seaters that you can't even get into and out of without a crew on site to unbolt you. R&D cars are cool and they need to exist and they push the technology and lead us to ways to make production line models better.

I'm all good with the idea, I'm just expressing what I expect from a car, any car. I want to be able to drive 3,000 miles in 3 days with 2 drivers running shifts. If the car can't do that then I can't have it as my only car. and I believe that the American public has a pretty similar expectation. I could have a 100 mile range electric for a second car but it could never be my only car. Currently the price point of $25,000 gets you 100-120 miles per charge and 6 hour charge times. That is what is available, if you want the 250- 300 mile range you pay $100,000, not in most people's budget for a car.



Part of my point in listing some of those links was to show that what they have today is pretty much the same as they had years ago. That and to show the radical differences in what they have on market for distance and what the records are. The logical next step points to a "problem" with that at least for me.

My problem with today's electric car companies is that I believe the technology is already here and they for whatever the reason aren't implementing it..Most likely greed.

Hopefully we'll have cheaper full electric cars and hybrids shortly so that maybe we can afford to trade the cars we have now in. One full electric and one hybrid maybe.


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submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:33:51 PM   
Archer


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When they make it work in whatever way they make it work, quick change battery packs, efficiency of motors and batteries whatever,  and they have it at a comperable price point I'm there.
I have nothing against the idea of an electric car I have many things against the state of the art production of currently available models and their cost.


Sam I'm good with the idea of having an electric as a second (more likely third) car at the house. Drive the electric for daily short trips and then use the gasoline or even hybrid for the trips where I need the range.

Hell I'm pissed that nobody offers a hybrid pick up. Both Ford and Toyota have Hybrid SUV's that they could use as the base for one, but neither has put one out.

There are people who don;t drive the miles I drive, I know that, but I have yet to meet more than a few who have not at one point or another wanted to drive the Great American Roadtrip 2,000 miles each way stopping at every 40 ft ball of string, and John Wayne shat here dinner. That 2,000 mile road trip is simply not feasible with today's technology electric vehicles.

BTW I know that dozens of my hunting buddies have been opting for the Electric ATV's and golf cart style ATV's for their hunting use. quiet, equally torqued or better, they are quite popular.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:37:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Wait until studies show that widespread use of solar panels causes global whatever because the absorption/reflection balance of sunlight and the temperature of the earth's crust are altered.

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:38:15 PM   
samboct


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"My problem with today's electric car companies is that I believe the technology is already here and they for whatever the reason aren't implementing it..Most likely greed. "

Nope. Battery technologies still suck. The only technology that's been commercialized to date with enough energy density to make a car practical is lithium ion. Unfortunately, nobody can make a large cell- they're air sensitive, and if overcharged, they tend to blow up, which means that you need a charger than can handle individual cells. Making a pack out of several thousand batteries just isn't practical which is what we're finding out. Anybody that develops a large format lithium ion battery good for 2,000 cycles that doesn't blow up and can be fast charged (some of these cells can now be charged in as little as 5 minutes- the problem is the cabling and the charger- requires very high currents.) is going to beat Bill Gates as the world's richest nerd in very short order. It's not a greed problem- it's a technology problem The rest of the pieces are largely there (charging still a bit tough as noted earlier.)

Sam

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:39:12 PM   
Vendaval


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Fast Reply -

Not a good situation but I am relieved that so far no serious injuries or deaths are being reported. Hopefully there will not be additional oil leaking into the Gulf. It is time that the whole oil rig and platform, refinery, etc industry be more closely monitored as a result of recent explosions and safety rules better enforced.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 3:50:22 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

"My problem with today's electric car companies is that I believe the technology is already here and they for whatever the reason aren't implementing it..Most likely greed. "

Nope. Battery technologies still suck. The only technology that's been commercialized to date with enough energy density to make a car practical is lithium ion. Unfortunately, nobody can make a large cell- they're air sensitive, and if overcharged, they tend to blow up, which means that you need a charger than can handle individual cells. Making a pack out of several thousand batteries just isn't practical which is what we're finding out. Anybody that develops a large format lithium ion battery good for 2,000 cycles that doesn't blow up and can be fast charged (some of these cells can now be charged in as little as 5 minutes- the problem is the cabling and the charger- requires very high currents.) is going to beat Bill Gates as the world's richest nerd in very short order. It's not a greed problem- it's a technology problem The rest of the pieces are largely there (charging still a bit tough as noted earlier.)

Sam


I'll see (no promises...I believe he may have been featured in "Who killed the electric car"...? Watch that btw..it was kind of interesting) if I can find a link to an inventor that came up with a new battery for cars that was tested and worked yet the a car company bought it and has shelved it. Who knows why.

They don't suck compared to what they had 15 or 20 years ago and yet Nissan has the "leaf" with a distance of only 100 miles. They were doing 120 or more 10 years ago. Get my drift?

Greed plays a large part in the way things happen in society... I'd think anyone could see that.

Here he is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J5f9x_RfHI


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/3/2010 3:59:21 PM >


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 4:09:51 PM   
samboct


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Icarys

Oh, I agree that greed plays a big part in todays and yesterdays, and the day before that's society, but I don't like conspiracy theories. I pay a fair amount of attention to battery technologies professionally- there's nothing out there that's wonderful that somebody buried. There's lots of stuff out there like zinc air batteries that just don't have the cycle life or some other problem that the salesman of the technology is glossing over. In terms of performance issues- GM did a beautiful job on the EV1. They gambled that the NiMH batteries would improve to the point that they would be useable. They were wrong- they didn't. If they had the batteries of today back then, that car would have been a different story. Unfortunately, they had to go to lead acids- which are an environmental nightmare. The EPA has gotten involved (apparently the use of lead acids in current car technology is grandfathered- not sure what's going on here though.) and an accident with a spill was going to be problematic. If we have a problem in todays world- odds are there's a lawyer at the bottom of it.


Ven

The only reason we keep operating oil rigs in the gulf is the perception that CM posted- that there are no viable alternatives. Well, there are- they just need some nudging to get there- the same way the automobile, the ship, and the airplane did. And on topic- I'm getting pretty pissed off at the inadequate safety standards that are clearly endemic in this industry as a result of three decades of the Republican mantra of deregulation. Regulations were there for a reason. The chemical industry has a long history of accidents occurring in 25-30 year cycles. What happens is that something goes boom, everybody figures out what went wrong, and procedures are implemented so that it doesn't happen again. Two decades later some whizz kid MBA type comes in and says, well, this isn't efficient, and goes back to the first way- which then goes boom again until the lesson is learned- AGAIN. This is something that the Democrats should be shoving down the Republicans throats- I'm tired of the pussy footing around.


Sam

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 4:13:50 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

but I don't like conspiracy theories.


Me either but check that last link of Stanford the inventor out and watch "Who killed the electric car"...You'll start to wonder I bet.


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 6:06:58 PM   
Aneirin


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There will be no nudging of anything as a viable alternative to internal combustion whilst the oil industry has so much influence.

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 6:25:20 PM   
Sanity


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If they didnt provide us with that DAMNED affordable energy they wouldnt have nearly the influence that they do. Its frankly unbelievable that people like heat and convenient transportation and all the products that are made out of oil... computer parts, sex toys etc.

Un fucking believable.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

There will be no nudging of anything as a viable alternative to internal combustion whilst the oil industry has so much influence.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/3/2010 6:26:03 PM >


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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 7:39:18 PM   
samboct


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"If they didnt provide us with that DAMNED affordable energy.."

They don't. As far as I'm concerned, the butcher's bill in Iraq and Vietnam can be laid at the doorstep of the companies selling us oil. Wind is already competitive with power production that's heavily subsidized. It's just with renewables, the subsidies aren't hidden. I have no idea why you defend the status quo so, we've gone back to the 1880s and are rapidly fading from the world stage as an economic power due to our addiction to oil. The billionaires don't give a damn about the rest of us- why shouldn't they pay their fair share of taxes? Your claim that these energy sources are affordable doesn't track with our economic performance over the last several decades.

Sam

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 7:55:06 PM   
Sanity


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Everybody in the worlds "addicted" to oil because its cheap, and we have yet to steal an ounce of oil from Iraq. At three dollars a gallon we pay more for bottled water...

We use cheap abundant oil to help feed the worlds poor, too. You think our farmers and truckers use donkeys these days? And we use oil and natural gas to help heat our own poor and provide affordable electricity... if ever you leftists get your way and the oil companies are made to suffer like you wish they would be Id hate to imagine the food riots, the mass suffering and the carnage.



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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 8:08:06 PM   
samboct


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Well Tom, one of us is right. Since I've never seen a technology displaced by one which wasn't cheaper in the long run- I'm laying long odds that renewables will win-or we won't have much of a planet left anyhow. If you guys pushing the oil addiction win, the likelihood that we can continue to burn oil and coal for the next several decades with increasing rates of consumption (the US is going to be overtaken in oil consumption by China- they're already burning more coal than we do) without doing long term environmental damage is negligible.

So both of us postulate crop failures within a couple of decades if the other person is right. My comment is that mother nature trumps economics. There's plenty of evidence of long term environmental damage already- the oceans host far less large fish and mammals than they did a few decades ago, diseases such as dengue are on the move north, and Russia just had a massive crop failure of wheat. Seems to me that your economic doom and gloom doesn't have much of a leg to stand on compared to what's already happening.

Sam

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 9:41:06 PM   
Lordandmaster


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You really don't know much about science, do you...

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wait until studies show that widespread use of solar panels causes global whatever because the absorption/reflection balance of sunlight and the temperature of the earth's crust are altered.

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/3/2010 10:21:31 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You really don't know much about science, do you...

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wait until studies show that widespread use of solar panels causes global whatever because the absorption/reflection balance of sunlight and the temperature of the earth's crust are altered.




He doesnt want to. The voices on right wing media told him that science is bad and he doesnt need to learn anything. Just trust them and parrot everything they tell him to say and they'll make it alllllll better.

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RE: Gulf oil platform explodes, burning off La. coast - 9/4/2010 6:17:48 AM   
samboct


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Icarys

I checked the link you gave- as well as Wikipedia. The guy came up with a tweak to NiMH cells, but the reality is that those cells were pretty delicate for a number of years. They also had cold issues- like dumping their charge if they got too cold. I'll lay long odds what they ran into was a difficulty in manufacturing what the wonderful inventor came up with that he glossed over. There's been about a half dozen year window where NiMH cells began beating nicads and could beat Li-ion- but most battery mfgs have really moved their R+ D to lithium ion or other chemistries.

Sorry- no conspiracy needed- just some likely overblown claims. If those cells were as good as claimed- then they should have beaten Panasonic and HE cells.

And Wilbur- the change in albedo of the earth from solar panels is miniscule compared to the change in overall absorption due to increased CO2.

Sam

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