RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/7/2010 8:39:48 PM)

Sam,

I'm perfectly willing to agree with you that descriptions of Deity should not be relied upon. I think that would have to be the First Axiom of any serious study of Divinity. But I get stuck when you insist that something must of necessity be physical, i.e., have mass/energy, in order for it to exert any influence on the physical world.

Forget God for the moment. Consciousness isn't physical. I don't know of anyone who can walk me into a lab and show me a "consciousness," take measurements of it's mass and energy, etc. To the best of my knowledge, science has no idea why there even is such a thing. It certainly doesn't appear to be necessary, given that we are well on our way to being able to explain virtually any behavior of an organism in terms of electrochemical processes interacting with each other and the environment. In fact, I don't know how it would even be possible to rigorously prove that it exists.

Before we go after God, can you maybe offer some observations on the closer-to-home "hard problem" of consciousness?

K.




StrangerThan -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/7/2010 8:40:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
the acts of man are not the acts of God.


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
They can and will point to works done in his name by the various religions involved as evidence that his will exists on earth and is empirically observable.


Really...you don't see any issues at all with this?




Nope.

What I see is a circular debate I don't think physics can solve. In other words, the best you can hope for is to prove the existence of God because it is not possible to disprove the existence. That too, I believe is another tenet of science in that if you can't find him, it doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It can mean either you're not looking in the right place, or not recognizing it or you are not advanced enough to find him.

All of it is rather laughable to believers, first in that you are requiring God to obey your rules. Second in that they believe its not that you can't, it is that you refuse to. The first is completely incompatible with the concept of God. The second could potentially be true.

Trust me, been down this road.













StrangerThan -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/7/2010 8:42:20 PM)

lol

I suppose it would depend upon who you talked to. I think in most cases, if a deity were assigned, it would be one of the bad ones.




Marini -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/7/2010 8:44:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
the acts of man are not the acts of God.


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
They can and will point to works done in his name by the various religions involved as evidence that his will exists on earth and is empirically observable.


Really...you don't see any issues at all with this?




Nope.

What I see is a circular debate I don't think physics can solve. In other words, the best you can hope for is to prove the existence of God because it is not possible to disprove the existence. That too, I believe is another tenet of science in that if you can't find him, it doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It can mean either you're not looking in the right place, or not recognizing it or you are not advanced enough to find him.

All of it is rather laughable to believers, first in that you are requiring God to obey your rules. Second in that they believe its not that you can't, it is that you refuse to. The first is completely incompatible with the concept of God. The second could potentially be true.

Trust me, been down this road.


[sm=abducted.gif]
Another wonderful and well thought out commentary.
There is a much higher authority then man.............
[;)]




Marini -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/7/2010 8:47:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Sam,

I'm perfectly willing to agree with you that descriptions of Deity should not be relied upon. I think that would have to be the First Axiom of any serious study of Divinity. But I get stuck when you insist that something must of necessity be physical, i.e., have mass/energy, in order for it to exert any influence on the physical world.

Forget God for the moment. Consciousness isn't physical. I don't know of anyone who can walk me into a lab and show me a "consciousness," take measurements of it's mass and energy, etc. To the best of my knowledge, science has no idea why there even is such a thing. It certainly doesn't appear to be necessary, given that we are well on our way to being able to explain virtually any behavior of an organism in terms of electrochemical processes interacting with each other and the environment. In fact, I don't know how it woulds even be possible to rigorously prove that there is such a thing.

Before we go after God, can you maybe offer some observations on the closer-to-home "hard problem" of consciousness?

K.



Come sit by me Kirata, and we can ponder "consciousness" together.
As we both well know, so many more questions than answers.




Real0ne -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 5:15:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think the majority of people know this now and it’s time we speak up and rid ourselves of this irrational fairy tale we call religion which they use to pollute minds with lies like if you blow yourself up you go to heaven and will be with 50 virgins.


Yeh sure....

excerpts



Patrick Henry - Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.



It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.


There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have?

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!




Second Inaugural Address of Abraham Lincoln

SATURDAY, MARCH 4, 1865

Fellow-Countrymen:

The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.





The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816
Treaty with Tripoli 1796
The Annotated Translation of 1930
 
[Translation of the Treaty]

Praise be to God! Declaration from [sic] this noble affair and this clear and important speech, being the agreement consisting of the articles of peace and fellowship and all friendship and love and good trust and all confidence on account of the peace treaty between us with the Americans and [sic] with our Lord and Master the exalted Lord Yussuf Pasha of Tripoli, may God strengthen him by His grace, amen! and in agreement with his whole Divan, the whole population of his regency and his Divan, may God strengthen them by His grace and His favor, amen!

Praise be to God!  Declaration thereof from the first article. That we have agreed upon a perfect, valid, everlasting peace,

Praise be to God! Declaration thereof: the second article. We have agreed concerning all goods carried by ships of the Americans, that it shall not be lawful to seize them from [on] the part of Tripoli ships


Second Inaugural Address of Ronald Reagan

MONDAY, JANUARY 21, 1985


Well, with heart and hand, let us stand as one today: One people under God determined that our future shall be worthy of our past.

My friends, together we can do this, and do it we must, so help me God.-- From new freedom will spring new opportunities for growth, a more productive, fulfilled and united people, and a stronger America--an America that will lead the technological revolution, and also open its mind and heart and soul to the treasures of literature, music, and poetry, and the values of faith, courage, and love.

There is no story more heartening in our history than the progress that we have made toward the "brotherhood of man" that God intended for us. Let us resolve there will be no turning back or hesitation on the road to an America rich in dignity and abundant with opportunity for all our citizens.

Let us resolve that we the people will build an American opportunity society in which all of us--white and black, rich and poor, young and old--will go forward together arm in arm. Again, let us remember that though our heritage is one of blood lines from every corner of the Earth, we are all Americans pledged to carry on this last, best hope of man on Earth.

It is the American sound. It is hopeful, big-hearted, idealistic, daring, decent, and fair. That's our heritage; that is our song. We sing it still. For all our problems, our differences, we are together as of old, as we raise our voices to the God who is the Author of this most tender music. And may He continue to hold us close as we fill the world with our sound--sound in unity, affection, and love--one people under God, dedicated to the dream of freedom that He has placed in the human heart, called upon now to pass that dream on to a waiting and hopeful world.

God bless you and may God bless America.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think the majority of people know this now and it’s time we speak up and rid ourselves of this irrational fairy tale we call religion which they use to pollute minds with lies like if you blow yourself up you go to heaven and will be with 50 virgins.


has it ever occurred to you that maybe you are missing something?





tazzygirl -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 5:20:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think the majority of people know this now and it’s time we speak up and rid ourselves of this irrational fairy tale we call religion which they use to pollute minds with lies like if you blow yourself up you go to heaven and will be with 50 virgins.


It never says you will be with 50 virgins of the opposite sex.




Real0ne -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 5:22:45 AM)



achmed was really disappointed to find that out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go




GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 10:55:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
 Consciousness isn't physical.

Just because we don't have a great understanding of how consciousness works doesn't justify the assertion that it isn't physical.




Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 11:18:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Just because we don't have a great understanding of how consciousness works doesn't justify the assertion that it isn't physical.

Is that a dance step? I didn't base the assertion on our lack of a "great understanding" of how it "works".

K.




GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 11:35:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I didn't base the assertion on our lack of a "great understanding" of how it "works".

I apologize, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying here:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
 I don't know of anyone who can walk me into a lab and show me a "consciousness," take measurements of it's mass and energy, etc. To the best of my knowledge, science has no idea why there even is such a thing.


So, would you walk me through the justification for your assertion.




BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 11:40:06 AM)

HAWKINS IS TRAPEDIN HIS OWN LTTLE UNIVERSE,While a brillent man no doubt,he can't tell me that mother nature was the soul creater, many blessing of the day onto your all..Bounty




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 12:21:03 PM)

FR

The first 120 pages or so haven't thrilled me. Its a very basic history of science and intro to quantum theory. For those without a scientific background I guess its about as deep as they might want to get, but I would have liked it to be a bit more technical. He does give props to my favorite physicist though..Richard Feynman. He does a decent job of explaining Feynman diagrams and sums of all histories. (Six Easy Pieces chapters 5 and 6 are the best intro to gravitation and Quantum mechanics Ive read.)

Hopefully Grand Design picks up in the second half!




GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 1:15:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I notice how you clipped Brain's original comment from my post..

Yes, I always trim conversations down to the quote I'm responding to for readability, as recommended by the admins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

I think the majority of people know this now and it’s time we speak up and rid ourselves of this irrational fairy tale we call religion which they use to pollute minds with lies like if you blow yourself up you go to heaven and will be with 50 virgins.

It sounds extreme to me...

Personally, what I hate is when people strip away a quotes author. But regardless, no I don't consider his attempts to get people to "speak up" as extreme, He's just proselytizing. But even if it was extreme to get from his position of "speaking up" to rounding up and forcing requires the addition of a position that isn't his and as evidenced by the constant peaceful proselytizing in our country doesn't necessarily follow from his. Hence my comment about slippery slope fallacies.





GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 1:46:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I see God in science. I understand people have their own beliefs but it's beyond me how they could look into space and see the enormous amounts of energy cycling, planets and star systems being formed and broken apart and everything in between. To then ask yourself how all of this came to be and why..It's just hard to understand how someone couldn't see something beyond laboratory and mathematical results. I love science but I also have faith and try to keep a balance in that. I personally think they go hand in hand.

I just looked into the sky, the clouds looked kind of like an elephant, does that count?




Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 1:57:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So, would you walk me through the justification for your assertion.

I don't have to "justify" it, I only have to support it. And my post reflects why current scientific speculation views consciousness as an epiphenomenon of electrochemical processes in the brain, or, alternatively, as an emergent quality of complex biological systems, but not as a physical object or substance that occupies space. If you are objecting, on principle, to the definitiveness of the statement, then I respect your point. But I think it is supportable.

K.




GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 2:23:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So, would you walk me through the justification for your assertion.

epiphenomenon of electrochemical processes in the brain, or, alternatively, as an emergent quality of complex biological systems

Thank you for clarifying, I never would have gotten that you were saying this from your last post. However I disagree. Electrochemical processes and complex biological systems are physical.




luckydawg -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 2:30:07 PM)

It is funny how many people resort to sentance fragments to try to make a point. A regular tactic by some posters.




Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 2:33:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

However I disagree. Electrochemical processes and complex biological systems are physical.

I'm not sure who you're responding to. Did someone said they weren't?

K.




juliaoceania -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/8/2010 4:12:33 PM)

People need to speak up and rid themselves of atheism... we need to destroy it at its roots. We need to take this message everywhere GET RID OF ATHEISM TODAY.... (wonders, how does that statement feel to atheists if they heard it?)




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