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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 5:38:57 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		It helps yes.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 6:29:09 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I may trust the repairman who has worked for Sears for ten years not to be a nut, but I sure as hell am not submitting to him. I trust that the mechanic really did change the brakes I paid him for. I don't submit to him.

Not to mention that lots of people don't want a safe d/s relationship. They want edge and fear and the possibility of true peril. No trust there but plenty of submission.

Look op, it's real simple. You don't like the term 'gift of submission', so now you know that you aren't compatible with a woman who does like that term. Just think, with one simple, snarky post you have eliminated thousands of possible matches by proving yourself incompatible. So when you write to them, they'll know immediately not to write back. Aren't you happy Mr Gas Mask?

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 7:26:48 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Every day is a gift.


Well this I agree with.  What I don't agree with is saying "I'm going to totally be myself with you because this relationship allows me to be true to myself...and you should view that as a really cool gift from me."

Not that you're saying that, but it's why I don't see submitting, or trusting, or any other part of myself as a gift to the man.  I can't go around saying, "I'm going to be true to myself with you and you should see that as a gift."  Because that's what "my submission is a gift" would be to me.


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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 7:29:12 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Every day is a gift.


Well this I agree with.  What I don't agree with is saying "I'm going to totally be myself with you because this relationship allows me to be true to myself...and you should view that as a really cool gift from me."

Not that you're saying that, but it's why I don't see submitting, or trusting, or any other part of myself as a gift to the man.  I can't go around saying, "I'm going to be true to myself with you and you should see that as a gift."  Because that's what "my submission is a gift" would be to me.



Does it have to be one or the other? There is nothing that says a gift has to be a gift to only one person.

Valyraen gets to see me happy and being true to myself. I get to be true to myself. I got to watch him grow and be happy with who he is as a dominant and a sadist. He gets to be true to himself. I'd say those are gifts to both of us.

Edited to add: Please understand, I'm not pushing the "it's a gift" line of thinking. I've just noticed a lot of hostility to it that I honestly don't think is deserved. That people are so used to saying "I can't wrap it, it's not a gift" that they don't even think about it anymore.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/11/2010 7:31:29 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 7:57:55 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Does it have to be one or the other? There is nothing that says a gift has to be a gift to only one person.

Hi Aquatic.  Not at all - It doesn't have to be either, both, or neither.  It can be however you see it, in your relationship. What we are within our own relationships is a very personal thing.  I'd be off my rocker to think I could decide how others view themselves in their own relationships.  Currently, in my relationship, I really don't think much about this topic and whether or not we're gifts to each other.  In responding to this thread, I was doing so with the generic "submission is a gift" phrase that we so often see, and how I can't apply that to myself.

quote:


Valyraen gets to see me happy and being true to myself. I get to be true to myself. I got to watch him grow and be happy with who he is as a dominant and a sadist. He gets to be true to himself. I'd say those are gifts to both of us.


I can understand that way of thinking.  I suppose putting it that way, by nature of simply being who we are, we are gifts in each others lives.  I just don't tend to see it that way, for myself.  Then again I haven't thought about it much.  I do know we are grateful for each other, and we appreciate each other.  We just don't take it much beyond that.

quote:


Edited to add: Please understand, I'm not pushing the "it's a gift" line of thinking. I've just noticed a lot of hostility to it that I honestly don't think is deserved. That people are so used to saying "I can't wrap it, it's not a gift" that they don't even think about it anymore.

Frankly, I hate that "can't wrap it" line and never agreed with it.  I often give the gift of time, when volunteering, or helping my mother, etc.  Can't wrap that, either.  To me, that's an easy brush off that doesn't have a lot of meaning.  But I tend to see the "gift of submission" line as something along the lines of "Hey, I'm really cool and I'm giving my partner the submission he wants (as though this wasn't something that would come naturally to me anyway) so he better appreciate me and think I'm all that and more."

I could be wrong, but that's how it comes across to me.  Of course I'm going to submit to him.  It's who I am.  There's no going out of my way to do it.  There's no hesitation to doing it.  There's no real sacrifice in doing it.  It's me.  And that's why I personally don't see submitting to him as a gift from me.  I can't help but do it.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:10:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I can understand why a dominant might feel that when their partner submits it is a gift. I have had dominant men tell me how humbled they have felt that someone would trust them enough to allow them to physically hurt them or tie them up. In that way I have understood what they meant when they said they thought submission was a gift. It was as if they were saying "This is something I treasure and something I do not feel entitled to".

I know many people roll their eyes at this expression, but if it is how someone feels for their partner, I hardly am one to say they are "wrong"... even if I wouldn't use the same words... I understand the sentiment

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:11:51 PM   
sweetsub1957


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Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
rednicky I hope you are joking,it was not my intention to offend.
vaguelycurious says
trust is a necessary condition of submission it is not a sufficient one-there needs to be something else there. That's basic logic. And if someone wants to call that extra bit if themselves a gift, who on earth do you think you are to argue?

could someone tell me what the "extra" is? I assume it is their submissiveness.Well they are submissive so they are doing what they love or need,does that mean that someone who likes anal is giving the gift of ass? Basic logic

That all depends.....is that ass given to someone specifically, or just passed out to everyone? The extra, IMO anyway, is compatibility and being drawn to submit to someone specific. Whether it's ass, submission, Dominance or anything else, it's not special if it's passed out to everyone willy nilly. One thing I can immediately think of is, it's more special to receive D or s (or ass for that matter) from someone if they give it to you because you are YOU and not just one of the masses.

~sweetsub~

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Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:16:05 PM   
sweetsub1957


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Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Look op, it's real simple. You don't like the term 'gift of submission', so now you know that you aren't compatible with a woman who does like that term. Just think, with one simple, snarky post you have eliminated thousands of possible matches by proving yourself incompatible. So when you write to them, they'll know immediately not to write back. Aren't you happy Mr Gas Mask?

Mr Gas Mask? Now that's funny!!

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:18:02 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		I see dominance and submission as choices. It's a manner of relating in my mind. While both parties benefit I don't make associations of gifting because there's often a level of expectation present that negates my interpretation of what a gift entails. To assume that one controls or yields with no desire for anything in return is a difficult line for me to take.

~porcelaine


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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:25:41 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		Ultimately, D/s is a choice. And "gift" can be a loaded word. Maybe what those who use the word really mean is, hey, I'm giving this to YOU, not to just ANYONE. I can understand using the word that way.

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:27:54 PM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am trying to discern what your point is...




Well, obviously, he is right and they are all wrong. And he is getting "a little fed up with the cliche". Now I am not sure why he feels he is that "authority" on word usage or why he thinks we would want to get a little mini lecture on definitions 101, but I am sure he will enlighten us eventually. In the mean time, who has the popcorn?


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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:30:33 PM   
sweetsub1957


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am trying to discern what your point is...




Well, obviously, he is right and they are all wrong. And he is getting "a little fed up with the cliche". Now I am not sure why he feels he is that "authority" on word usage or why he thinks we would want to get a little mini lecture on definitions 101, but I am sure he will enlighten us eventually. In the mean time, who has the popcorn?




_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:32:06 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
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Status: offline 		I've read this thread.
Who cares about semantics?

Appreciate people.
Profit.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:43:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

a little fed up with the cliche".


Well, he is not the only one who is fed up with it, it is a common pet peeve


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/11/2010 8:44:20 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:53:37 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		So the polar opposite of the expression would be 'The gang-rape of dominance'.

Yeah. It is catchy, isn't it.

Jeff

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Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 8:58:05 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

*sighs* Threads like this make me relucant to say that I do view submission as a gift. I also view his dominance as a gift. His presence in my life is a gift. My friends are gifts, my time with my pets are gifts to me. Not every gift comes in a box - I'd say taking a sick child to Disney World or fulfilling another wish is a gift too but you can't fit that in a box. Even the Webster defination of "gift" has nothing that specifically says "box" or that the gift has to be given without conditions - simply that it's "voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation". I give Valyraen, my friends, and my family myself and my time. I expect them to take care of it the same as if I gave them a pet - which also doesn't fit in a box but is in line with the defination of "giving". If they fail to take care of it, I either remove it or call animal control on them.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift

That right there.  I really do see the joy that other people bring into My life as a gift.  They enrich My life and make it a happier world for Me.  The majority of good memories of fun times that I've had were made better because people that I care about were a part of them.

In no way does that make it one sided.  I'm a part of other people's worlds, too.

I don't see a thing wrong with appreciating what other people 'give' to Me in My life. 


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/11/2010 9:19:23 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster




To begin it appears as though you have presented few disjointed thoughts on the subject of submission in comparison with trust. Although not presented in a methodical manner, nonetheless I will reply with the following:

It is factual that there is a level of trust that is interwoven into submission. The gift of submission as it is has been known by myself is not devoid a bond of trust either when submission is offered in its awesome beauty.

A man cannot force submission from the heart ( inner most deep thoughts) of a submissive lady. I believe he must inspire her heart to submit thus trust is integrated within the submission offered. I liken it to being thirsty and drinking a cold glass of water to quench my thirst. I do not get my thirst quenched without drinking the water. Nor do I drink the water without the container being filled with the water. Thus I seek the quench yet must drink the water that has filled the container. So is submission interwoven with trust and the gift of submission.

A gift denotes something that is given to somebody, usually to provide pleasure or to show gratitude. Such is submission unto dominance. One to another, submission offered unto dominance OR dominance inspiring the gift of submission that is freely given through a bond of trust equally experienced. Such has been the gift of submission in my experience.

Take care!


I was going to say that it annoys me when people say submission is a gift.

Then I read Zevar's post and rethought my opinion due to the lovely way he put it.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/12/2010 1:11:56 AM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~
In the way that I look at the word "gift," something which is freely given, His Dominance is His gift to me, and my submission my gift to Him. And, as a matter of fact, I am grateful and thankful for His Dominance.

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/12/2010 5:51:19 AM   
trainedobedients


Posts: 56
Joined: 1/30/2006
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I don't believe in the word ' gift of submission' but your rantings are missing the point entirely.

In your example it would be called rape and that is never a submission of the victim.

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Play safe and sound,
trainedobedients
slave of Master JohnnyV

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RE: gift of submission? - 9/12/2010 1:00:59 PM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

right,a quicky about "the gift of submission."
It must sound nice to the person who writes it,sort of romantic yet meaningful.....lets face it ladies,most men are a lot stronger than most women,ie.we could easily overpower you.So any time you let a man into your house(not the gasman but someone you have romantic intentions with) or go to another mans house you are giving him the gift of TRUST.You are trusting that he is not a nutter and isn't going to do anything crazy.so leave the gift of submission out,it's trust that you are giving and that doesn't change just because you are in a bdsm enviroment


there is NO "gift" of submission.  It is who you are, submissive or you submission is given for a reason, not as a gift.

when I serve, it is out of respect and trust (so maybe you are partially right for unowned submissives) because I am owned.

"The submissive with the slave’s heart desires to give her/his heart as well as her/his submission to the Dominant. This type of submission is complete and will carry over into everyday life, the power is always given no  matter where the submissive is."

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
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