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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:15:35 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You know what, the fact you are so dismissive about an action that could be used to recruit more radicals to the cause of killing our troops doesn't surprise me in the least


I understand your sentiment Julia. At the same time, the question that comes to my mind is how far and how often do you step around Islam in order to keep them from their most recent explosion of outrage? I'm just curious.

When I joined the military, I freely admit being one of those who felt he had no other option. I was 17, had a wife, a year old baby and zero chances at any sort of economic future that ventured above the poverty level. Aside from the fact that the military is a way of life in my family, I'd have gone anyway because it was the only road that offered some chance. I ended up in places like Saudi, Pakistan, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, the northern section of Yemen, along with a handful of other countries in the region, riding shotgun to fend off terrorist attacks.

Somewhere along the line being accepting does not carve out a special place for religion. Nor is a way of life maintained by allowing anyone to carve out that a special place through fear and threats. It is one thing to believe. It is quite another to demand that everyone else respect what you believe and erupt into caveman antics when they don't.

Our troops are exceptional men and women. We hold them to higher standards than those in conflict against them. Regardless of the barbaric acts that may be perpetrated upon them, we hold them to clear and defined rules of engagement. We do it at times even when it puts them at greater risk. It's why we can look at outrages from someone else with shock and anger, but when they come from our troops in places like Abu Ghraib, we carry it like a personal slap in the face.

Soldiers don't pick and choose their wars. They go where they're told to go and do their best to accomplish the task they're given. A big part of that is to protect the rights of stupid people to do stupid things whether it be burning the koran, filling a jar with piss and sticking a statue of Christ inside of it, or tossing Mark Twain from the local library. A bigger part is maintaining a society where one should not have to fear or bow to the religion down the road.

So first we stop someone from burning a koran. Then we tiptoe around where mosque's will be built. Maybe a cultural center will be erected and if it doesn't get enough visitors, will that too be seen as an insult?

I'm asking because I don't have the answers. One answer I do have however, is that the resolution is not going to be running scared anytime they threaten.




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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:15:42 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		It's really to bad that the good Muslims rarely denounce the radicals in their so called religion.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:20:13 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

It's really to bad that the good Muslims rarely denounce the radicals in their so called religion.


How many Muslims do you know? I know many, and they denounce violent radicalism.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:23:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

At the same time, the question that comes to my mind is how far and how often do you step around Islam in order to keep them from their most recent explosion of outrage? I'm just curious.


I think there is a line...

I think that people have the right to burn books. I also think it is a fucked up thing to do.

_____________________________

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:24:36 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		They maybe denounce it in private. They seldom do it in public. They want to keep their heads.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:26:03 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

It's really to bad that the good Muslims rarely denounce the radicals in their so called religion.


Odd. I haven't know many but the ones I knew destested the radicals. And, despite being a Jew-by-choice, one did date me for a time and another wanted to. I declined because he was too young for me, admist other reasons.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:29:38 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

They maybe denounce it in private. They seldom do it in public. They want to keep their heads.


I know people who are involved with the Muslim Student Association. They hold workshops and outreach to the larger campus community. Part of their mission is to demonstrate what moderate Islam is, and create awareness about their religion. Just like Christian students, they wish to gain converts to their religion when possible, and that is not likely if they do not denounce radicals within their religion. Toleration is something that is important to them, and they will tell you openly and freely, religious violence hurts their community not only because they are Americans, but it makes them suspect as well..... kinda a double wounding they endure because others are violent.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:38:08 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
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Status: offline 		Their message doesn't seem to be getting out. Maybe their 'workshops' should be more public.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:42:15 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You prod the hornets with sticks, get them out of the hive and kill them. If you don't do this, they will sting you. Radical muslims don't care if we burn the koran or not. That will not change their goal.


I'm not a Muslim, but if someone were to burn a Torah, that would deeply distress us Jews.


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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:46:10 PM   
AquaticSub


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_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 7:48:31 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

They maybe denounce it in private. They seldom do it in public.

Imams are constantly denouncing such acts in public, but I guess you only see what you want to see.

~stef


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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 8:01:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You are such an easily duped oikophobe, Julia.

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RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 8:11:05 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

This guy is "WEAK!" I wonder if "President Palin" would be scolding the people who's buildings were crashed by jet planes?
Wouldn't it have been much more appropriate to reinforce the idea that we'll get al qeada or something like that?
They're not going to "leave us alone" because we "didn't do something!" That's the thinking of a coward.
Man is Obama going to get a message in November!


Let me ask you something Mr. Moderate Independent who takes no sides on these issues.

Where the FUCK was your moderate independent voice criticizing Bush for 7/1/2 years after he promised to get Bin Laden "dead or alive"?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 8:36:08 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I understand your sentiment Julia. At the same time, the question that comes to my mind is how far and how often do you step around Islam in order to keep them from their most recent explosion of outrage? I'm just curious.

...........So first we stop someone from burning a koran. Then we tiptoe around where mosque's will be built. Maybe a cultural center will be erected and if it doesn't get enough visitors, will that too be seen as an insult?

I'm asking because I don't have the answers. One answer I do have however, is that the resolution is not going to be running scared anytime they threaten.



No one is threatening anything.

The Florida nutcase wants to burn some books.  That's his right.

He has offended those who find those books sacred and they are protesting.  That is their right.

The American Muslims in NYC want to convert a dilapidated building into a cultural center.  That's their right.

There are people who find that objectionable, which is their right.

But let's compare the two situations.  Terry Jones was putting on a publicity stunt specifically designed to generate the reaction he received.  He was being deliberately provocative.

Do you honestly believe that was the intention of those who want to build the cultural center?  Or is it more likely that the conservative talking heads latched onto something they could spin into a story that would fire up their listeners and boost ratings?  I mean really, Victory Mosque? 

If you want to talk about unwarranted Muslim outrage you also need to include unwarranted outrage against Muslims.  

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 8:48:40 PM   
StrangerThan


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Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:



No one is threatening anything.



When you can get past the bullshit of that statement, then I'll waste time writing a response.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/11/2010 8:49:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 8:55:17 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You are such an easily duped oikophobe, Julia.


I have a different conception of what is "American" than you do. In my eyes, freedom of religion, whether Christian or otherwise, is sacrosanct... as is the right to freedom of speech. I know that certain people think up is down, and back is forward... but the last I looked the values I ascribe to are enshrined in the Constitution.... I think I might seem that way only because you are extraordinarily ethnocentric....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 9:04:02 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:



No one is threatening anything.



When you can get past the bullshit of that statement, then I'll waste time writing a response.


Yes, I see we are back to your trademark arrogance.

If you want to post be prepared to defend your views, otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time, including your own.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 9:04:42 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I am a Christian, and it wouldn't bother me if someone burned a Bible.  We would just...print more and more and more.  I do not worship a book, I worship an invisible being who is much bigger than a book.  The book is merely to learn from.
 
Piss in a jar with a little statue of Jesus?  I see that as childish, and would be inwardly laughing at the person who did it.  Again, I do not worship statues but a God who is invisible unless He chooses to be otherwise. 
 
I'm strange about the flag though.  If a teed off American burns the flag it doesn't bother me; they LIVE HERE, and obviously would not want their own country to be destroyed, they're just angry about something.  If someone else burns our flag...AAAARGH...that means something entirely different.  It says to me, "I want your country to be destroyed."
 
I know that burning that book will cause troubles, but at the same time, in a way this is a male pissing contest.  How long can people stand having some radicals keep hiking up their leg and pissing on us without some of us retaliating in kind?  I guess we just found out. 

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 9:07:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		So you have no empathy when a symbol that someone holds as sacred is destroyed intentionally to make a statement against those people... but it pisses you off when someone destroys your sacred symbol.... um, okay

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: OH MY GAWD SOMEONE DID IT - 9/11/2010 9:13:51 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So you have no empathy when a symbol that someone holds as sacred is destroyed intentionally to make a statement against those people... but it pisses you off when someone destroys your sacred symbol.... um, okay


What she said.

A symbol is a symbol. The Bible is a symbol. A cross is a symbol. The Torah is a symbol, the Star of David is a symbol. Flags, national status, etc - all are symbols. What strikes me is strange is that it's not that uncommon for patriotic Americans to burn the flag as a symbol of their protest and as a way of commenting about the government. I don't, personally, agree with it but it happens. So how come it's ok for us to do it but not them? How come when they do it it has to be "OMG WANT YOU TO BE DESTROYED" instead of them just being angry?

I also don't get why this is a "male" pissing contest.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 40
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