RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1

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daddysprop247 -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/22/2010 8:00:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys All of those little catch phrases you ladies use are little more than excuses for retaining control. LOL! You've got us sussed? :D Ok, I'll bite. What catch-phrases do you mean? Do you mean like the Disenchanted's "Obeying should be as simple as 1,2,3... but it's not?" Some examples, please. "i'm a submissive, not a doormat!!!" seems to be a popular one.

crazyml -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 12:07:53 AM)
How was the general's chicken?

crazyml -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 12:18:33 AM)
OP: To start with, when you say that "everything you've heard here on CM implies that obeying should be as easy as 1,2,3" I'm a bit baffled - you can't mean that seriously in the context of these message boards surely? These boards wouldn't exist if obedience were that simple - as it is they're crammed with discussions, debates, and questions about the nature of d/s, submission, dominance and obedience! While I think that a lot of the "fun kinky play" stuff can be as easy as 1,2,3 anything that involves relationships, empathy, trust (which, to me at least are essential ingredients in obedience) is going to be a whole lot more complex.

ranja -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 1:42:04 AM)
obeying is not always easy indeed, nor should it be as we all should relish a challenge every so often... but what is even more difficult is to decide what is important to actually put up a fight about when you are sure you do not want to obey. If the man has you do all sorts of pointless stuff that pisses you off, i think you might want to respectfully address the issue and perhaps get him to loosen up (manipulate) But if the man wants you to ask his permission before you light up a fag because he wants to slow you down and maybe make you stop smoking the stinking cancer sticks... well i suggest you take his help and get over yourself

CaringandReal -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 4:52:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys All of those little catch phrases you ladies use are little more than excuses for retaining control. LOL! You've got us sussed? :D Ok, I'll bite. What catch-phrases do you mean? Do you mean like the Disenchanted's "Obeying should be as simple as 1,2,3... but it's not?" Some examples, please. "i'm a submissive, not a doormat!!!" seems to be a popular one. Good one. That one make more sense than "should be simple as 1,2,3 but..." which strikes me as a truthful phrase.

lally2 -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 4:52:26 AM)
i think there is a huge difference and a greater difficulty factor when you are submitting to someone rather than to submission - its something ive mentioned before, but ive really found it to be the case. anyone can submit to submission because its on their terms, what youre doing is submitting to someone else and that takes time, trust, faith in their direction, focus and game plan like some of the others i find handing over control ridiculously easy now - but that wasnt always the case. giving up youre self direction after years of being used to self direction is a wierd trip, its like going back to being a child in lots of ways, having to do as we are told or suffer whatever consequences, but there is a difference. back then as kids we had no responsibility for ourselves, that responsibility lay squarely on our parents shoulders. as adults we are entirely responsible for what we do and who we do it with. and for me anyway, therein lies the solution. you have taken on the responsibility to be this mans submissive and all that that implies. you either take up that responsibility or you dont.

Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 5:53:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys All of those little catch phrases you ladies use are little more than excuses for retaining control. LOL! You've got us sussed? :D Ok, I'll bite. What catch-phrases do you mean? Do you mean like the Disenchanted's "Obeying should be as simple as 1,2,3... but it's not?" Some examples, please. I'm sure you can think of some on your own...Just think, anything that keeps me from doing what I say I want to do based on fear and you'll pretty much have it..In the context of a power exchange relationship where one is giving up the power....not obeying equals retention of power in my eyes. It's all pretty simple human emotional math.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 11:44:39 AM)
quote: well perhaps the sort of man who needs and desires a woman who submits because it is first and foremost her very nature to do so, and not because she is internally battling and analyzing within herself before consciously choosing to do so. You assume it is a battle for those who aren't submissive to everyone to submit to one person, it isn't a "battle" to be submissive for me, the feeling is either there for me, or it isn't. If it isn't there for me I don't do it. Perhaps you assume there is some sort of "analyzing" process, because you analyze your "natural submission". I find when things are "natural", there isn't any need for me to "analyze" it or compare it to what others do. In reading your responses over the years I have found your continual need to compare yourself to others as if everything you do as true, real, somehow superior to others, more natural, more submissive.. etc etc etc, to be very puzzling to me. This is just me, but when I am naturally happy, content, feeling secure, etc, I give little thought to compare myself with others, especially in a way that makes them less and me more.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 11:47:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml OP: To start with, when you say that "everything you've heard here on CM implies that obeying should be as easy as 1,2,3" I'm a bit baffled - you can't mean that seriously in the context of these message boards surely? These boards wouldn't exist if obedience were that simple - as it is they're crammed with discussions, debates, and questions about the nature of d/s, submission, dominance and obedience! While I think that a lot of the "fun kinky play" stuff can be as easy as 1,2,3 anything that involves relationships, empathy, trust (which, to me at least are essential ingredients in obedience) is going to be a whole lot more complex. [sm=goodpost.gif]

daddysprop247 -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 12:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: well perhaps the sort of man who needs and desires a woman who submits because it is first and foremost her very nature to do so, and not because she is internally battling and analyzing within herself before consciously choosing to do so. You assume it is a battle for those who aren't submissive to everyone to submit to one person, it isn't a "battle" to be submissive for me, the feeling is either there for me, or it isn't. If it isn't there for me I don't do it. Perhaps you assume there is some sort of "analyzing" process, because you analyze your "natural submission". I find when things are "natural", there isn't any need for me to "analyze" it or compare it to what others do. In reading your responses over the years I have found your continual need to compare yourself to others as if everything you do as true, real, somehow superior to others, more natural, more submissive.. etc etc etc, to be very puzzling to me. This is just me, but when I am naturally happy, content, feeling secure, etc, I give little thought to compare myself with others, especially in a way that makes them less and me more. really? because that is not the tone that comes across in many of your postings...for example, when you say things like, "what sort of man wanted a submissive that would submit that quickly?" over the years in reading your posts, you definitely seem to have a very negative view on those with generally submissive personalities, and the men/women who are attracted to them. i certainly do not view myself as superior to anyone else, and especially not in regard to something over which i have no control like my personality. now what you may occasionally pick up on in my postings is some defensiveness, and that is because no matter how content someone may be in their personal life, it gets very old and very frustrating continually getting the message from others that who and what you are is "less than." also, i am fortunate enough to have finally reached a place in life where i actually have some pride. so absolutely, if i could i'd shout it from the rooftops that yes, contrary to popular belief, there IS something valuable about submission like mine.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 12:34:02 PM)
quote: "what sort of man wanted a submissive that would submit that quickly?" over the years in reading your posts, you definitely seem to have a very negative view on those with generally submissive personalities, and the men/women who are attracted to them. I have no negative view of "naturally submissive women"... I do not even know what that means, to be honest with you. There seems to be a nexus of behaviors and traits that some people find inherently and naturally "submissive", but when these traits get broken down, it seems that people have these traits... not only "submissive" people. You are right about one thing, there are men that would want a woman who would submit instantaneously to them,There is nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with people who have different needs than I have. There are some men that wouldn't want me for whatever reason, I am genuinely okay with that. quote: i certainly do not view myself as superior to anyone else, and especially not in regard to something over which i have no control like my personality. now what you may occasionally pick up on in my postings is some defensiveness, and that is because no matter how content someone may be in their personal life, it gets very old and very frustrating continually getting the message from others that who and what you are is "less than." also, i am fortunate enough to have finally reached a place in life where i actually have some pride. so absolutely, if i could i'd shout it from the rooftops that yes, contrary to popular belief, there IS something valuable about submission like mine. Did you read the comments on this thread that spawned the post I made that made you "defensive"? Posts like "You aren't ready", or, " make excuses"... so ironic that you feel defensive in your response to me, which was not about you or your particular brand of submission... when in reality I am "defending" a submissive woman's right to not submit to the world. One does not have to submit to the postman, the milkman, their children's teachers, etc etc etc... in order to be submissive. It isn't necessarily appropriate to act submissively when you are advocating for people who rely on you, such as an elderly parent or a child How many emails have you gotten demanding you aren't submissive because you won't webcam for someone? How many men try to convince submissive women they should do things against their best interests because they are "submissive"? How many newbies read this board and might get the impression that submissives meet men and submit after 10 minutes, and if unwilling to do so aren't naturally submissive? Shouldn't there be an alternative view other than that presented here? If you are happy in your situation, party on! It shouldn't matter to you that it would not fit my needs, just as it doesn't matter to me that I am not "naturally submissive" to the world.... It does matter to me that there might be the impression that submissives must submit in some sort of generalized time table or they aren't submissive. As I said earlier in this thread, I submitted to my last dominant the first day I met him, it felt right, and we did that... so my "wondering" about men who have women submit to them quickly wasn't exactly phrased correctly perhaps, but it really is no more ludicrous for me to wonder about that as it is for men to EXPECT it

porcelaine -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 1:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 well perhaps the sort of man who needs and desires a woman who submits because it is first and foremost her very nature to do so, and not because she is internally battling and analyzing within herself before consciously choosing to do so. Greetings daddysprop, What you refer to as submission I consider unconditional giving. I believe there are many people that possess a desire to do such without expectation from the recipient or the internal dialogues mentioned. Another thought came to mind as I read your comments and that's the unleashing of unparalleled peace that occurs when we cease striving and allow ourselves to flow naturally. Admittedly that takes a lot of trust and a willingness to be vulnerable. However, I've found it opens up the channels in both directions and allows a heightened receptivity when the mind has been quieted. Rather than a minefield fraught with resistance and barriers you create a springboard of possibility that's mutually beneficial for both parties. I view the behavior as representative of the woman who serves because that's who she is rather than what she does. Namaste, ~porcelaine

DesFIP -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 2:06:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx When you (anyone) decides you're ready for an authority-based relationship, you have to be faced with maintaining or accepting the authority. Jeff The important thing here is "when you're ready". I wouldn't have been ready to be micromanaged after two months. I wouldn't trust that he knew best for me every minute of the day after that short a period of time. Hell, we'd only met maybe three times in the first two months. We talked a lot daily but that's a lot different than him knowing what stresses I was under, he hadn't seen any of them for himself. Nor for me having seen him in operation enough to know if he really had anger management issues, for example. The only person who can decide when I know enough about him, when I feel he knows enough about me, is me. I have to decide I'm ready to enter into this relationship with this person. He understood that and gave me the time I needed to make that decision.

Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 2:30:46 PM)
quote: really? because that is not the tone that comes across in many of your postings...for example, when you say things like, "what sort of man wanted a submissive that would submit that quickly?" over the years in reading your posts, you definitely seem to have a very negative view on those with generally submissive personalities, and the men/women who are attracted to them. She like most of the people here attempt to bullshit their way through things. It's obvious what she meant by that phrase not only because of how it stands on it's own but also because of what you've pointed out about her past posts. As much as people say "You can't read my mind" there are only so many possible meanings when someone states something and it's not hard to figure out where that came from inside. [:D]

CaringandReal -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 4:08:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I'm sure you can think of some on your own...Just think, anything that keeps me from doing what I say I want to do based on fear and you'll pretty much have it.. Ah. I actually couldn't until you gave me that clue. I thought you were talking about the things submissives wrote on their profiles or said in forums like this and I was trying hard to think of what those catch-phrases were. Someone helped out with the online comments. But you don't mean those, do you? You're talking about interpesonal hardball. I've had plenty of dominant friends who feared that outcome from potential partners, but do you really think it happens all that often? I've assumed that it was a rare event, kind of like a submissive's fear that she'll find herself tied up by a psycho is not something that comes true all that often. quote: In the context of a power exchange relationship where one is giving up the power....not obeying equals retention of power in my eyes. It's all pretty simple human emotional math. I have trouble with that statement because it appears to demand a level of perfection from a submissive that almost nobody can realistically achieve. But maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Are you saying that the onus is always on the submissive to perfectly obey, to never disobey and that the dominant does nothing to reinforce that behavior? To me, erring is at the core of human "simple emotional math." We all do it. No matter how hard any of us try, we're going to screw up sometime, if not now, then later. Circumstances beyond our control occur, and some, like unexpected tragedies, may cause us to act in ways we would otherwise never think of acting. What if your submissive hears that her best friend has been seriously injured in an accident and rushes to the hospital to see her and forgets to call you first? Yes, that is certainly disobedience but I don't see that as her trying to retain power, I see that as losing track of priorities due to something very unexpected and awful being thrown her way. Later, some reinforcement of whatever command you have in place about contingencies (always call your dominant first?) would put her back on course and help her to remember to obey. Having to obey perfectly, all the time, without such reminders or assistance from my dominant might make me wonder if he were actually dominant at all, as he does not exercise the least little bit of control. Even when walking a dog, you exercise control, you tug on its leash to get its nose out of things (like passersby's crotches) that it doesn't belong in. So why not do the same for a submissive? You may expect her to have the sense not to put her nose in others crotches (I hope!), but humans encouter far more complex situations than that--situations in which a little leash-tugging guidance may really assist. Do you really expect her to always walk leashless?

CaringandReal -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 4:16:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 i am fortunate enough to have finally reached a place in life where i actually have some pride. so absolutely, if i could i'd shout it from the rooftops that yes, contrary to popular belief, there IS something valuable about submission like mine. Of course there is. :) I'm glad you feel that pride now, although in the years I've been reading you, here, there, and everywhere, your "voice" (despite whatever you felt inside) was always clear, strong, and absolutely steady. You've been a great spokesperson for "the side" (not that there is such a thing, lol, but obviously I identify more with your style than many other styles of submission expressed online).

Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 4:25:17 PM)
quote: Ah. I actually couldn't until you gave me that clue. I thought you were talking about the things submissives wrote on their profiles or said in forums like this and I was trying hard to think of what those catch-phrases were. Someone helped out with the online comments. But you don't mean those, do you? You're talking about interpesonal hardball. I've had plenty of dominant friends who feared that outcome from potential partners, but do you really think it happens all that often? I've assumed that it was a rare event, kind of like a submissive's fear that she'll find herself tied up by a psycho is not something that comes true all that often. I'm talking about the internal things people believe and then verbalize that really reflect on our inabilities to get past their own personal fears. Declarations similar to what prop has proposed. They speak more so about handing over control and being vulnerable. quote: I have trouble with that statement because it appears to demand a level of perfection from a submissive that almost nobody can realistically achieve. But maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Are you saying that the onus is always on the submissive to perfectly obey, to never disobey and that the dominant does nothing to reinforce that behavior? To me, erring is at the core of human "simple emotional math." We all do it. No matter how hard any of us try, we're going to screw up sometime, if not now, then later. Circumstances beyond our control occur, and some, like unexpected tragedies, may cause us to act in ways we would otherwise never think of acting. What if your submissive hears that her best friend has been seriously injured in an accident and rushes to the hospital to see her and forgets to call you first? Yes, that is certainly disobedience but I don't see that as her trying to retain power, I see that as losing track of priorities due to something very unexpected and awful being thrown her way. Later, some reinforcement of whatever command you have in place about contingencies (always call your dominant first?) would put her back on course and help her to remember to obey. Having to obey perfectly, all the time, without such reminders or assistance from my dominant might make me wonder if he were actually dominant at all, as he does not exercise the least little bit of control. Even when walking a dog, you exercise control, you tug on its leash to get its nose out of things (like passersby's crotches) that it doesn't belong in. So why not do the same for a submissive? You may expect her to have the sense not to put her nose in others crotches (I hope!), but humans encouter far more complex situations than that--situations in which a little leash-tugging guidance may really assist. Do you really expect her to always walk leashless? My only response to this would be intent. It makes the difference. For the most part I surely do expect her to be able to do what I ask her. She's a responsible person that stands accountable for her actions..She will make mistakes, no doubt. I will be there to correct them, of course. I've never had a problem being me and it's "humorous" to watch others struggling with that for themselves. I hold up my end of the "deal" why shouldn't I expect them to do the same.

MaamJay -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 7:08:34 PM)
Back to the OP: As someone who identifies as both Domme and sub, i can identify with your struggle to obey. And in my experience, 2 months isn't long at all. i certainly hadn't submitted everything within the first 2 months that Master and i lived together. And like you, it wasn't in the bedroom or in play that i had difficulty, those areas were pretty easy to submit. It was in the mundane everyday life things that i had to stop and think about and consciously relinquish control. He also didn't expect everything all at once, neither did He get it. We started, like you, with some everyday changes that i didn't find so much threatening, but hard to remember to do at times. We don't do total micromanagement, for eg, He threw up His hands in horror when i suggested He might like to choose what i wear LOL! He took a look in my admittedly extensive (at the time) wardrobe, did some maths and worked out that with over 100 tops and about 50 skirts there were more combinations and permutations than He dared think of. So instead, He drew up some general rules - skirts generally, trousers only with permission, no panties where possible, and the right of veto if He really didn't like an outfit. That works well! However, my "permission" thing was to go to the toilet ... and that is still ongoing some 6 years on. It's had a side benefit in that i have middle-aged-woman-bladder-issues ... and He has more control over it than i have! A stern look and "Not till you're sitting on the toilet!" quells the urgency like nothing else. So this was something i found relatively easy to do once i got the hang of it. A tougher exercise was stopping my totally unconscious habit of rocking, especially when talking to people. He persevered, i persevered, and now it's very rare. i didn't resent this one, once He made me aware of it and how it made other people i was talking to duck and weave LOL ... just found it hard to become aware of it at the time and stop it. The first real qualms was when it came to asking Him before accepting an invitation from a friend ... i really had to stop and think whether i could give up that much independence ... now it's second nature to say "i'll check and get back to you". That was within about 3 months of being together 24/7. Financial control ... that took much longer, not only for me to yield it but for Him to be willing to accept it. That was about 3 years down the track. The next biggy was musical control ... i had led every musical group i had been part of all my life (and i'm 15 yrs older than Master, so that was a lot!) ... so it was hard to yield control to Him when we became a duo. After an initial argument, i decided to give it a try, we realised we had both misunderstood, i yielded to His decision ... and all was well. And i find it rather refreshing not to be leader! There are some things in everyday life where He's decided the best way to lead is to delegate ... that's ok to a point, and it gives my leadership side some outlet, but there are times when i feel it's a cop-out and i insist He takes the reins back for a while. That usually leads to some earnest discussion but we work it out. So ... that's ONE person's journey into submission. As we've seen in this thread, there are many ways, many journeys ... some quick, some slow. It seems to me from what you said, your journey may be similar to mine in some ways in that in your previous life, leadership featured strongly, even though it was from different motivations. So by giving you these examples, i hope i have encouraged you to feel OK about taking time, perhaps given you some things to discuss with your Dom, and a chuckle or 2 along the way! All the best violet[A] best known here as My Domme side, Maam Jay!

NuevaVida -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 8:42:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I've never had a problem being me and it's "humorous" to watch others struggling with that for themselves. I hold up my end of the "deal" why shouldn't I expect them to do the same. Why do you find it humorous to see other people struggle? I actually find it hopeful. At least for me, coming to know myself began with many struggles. It was the beginning of what was to come, which is a pretty cool and happy life. I also found it crucial to me that someone know how to lead me, else I wouldn't follow very well. Leadership skills are imperative. Without them, all involve end up with frustration.

Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/23/2010 8:57:27 PM)
quote: I also found it crucial to me that someone know how to lead me, else I wouldn't follow very well. This is anther one of those phrases I was talking about. Has my dominance ever been contingent on another? No. I lead because I'm natural at it. I look for opportunities to do so and embrace them when they come around. I've struggled plenty in life but never to be myself(Well maybe when I was a child and was yet to know myself)...Dominance is a part of me so why would I find it hard to exercise..Why would anyone else. If your not a mature person emotionally at mid-life and haven't settled into who you are then I don't think you'd be right for me. I'm not your shrink or your babysitter..I want a woman..not a the false image of one. (Generally speaking)

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