RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:10:17 PM)

quote:

I haven't seen anyone mention they were struggling to be. I saw the topic of struggling to submit on occasion. Sometimes being true to oneself means submitting at any cost, but the things we are required to submit to can be a struggle. You yourself have spoken about being in despair on more than one occasion, due to the nature of your relationship. To me, despair means a struggle of some sort.

All sorts of areas of our lives can be a struggle from time to time, even when we're being true to ourselves. In fact, sometimes being true to ourselves requires us to struggle, especially when going against what we believe in might actually be the easier choice.

I know most of you people have trouble with logic so I'll spell this out for you.

If you've ever said being submissive is part of who you are yadayada..then you've said you struggle to submit...you then are struggling with a part of yourself..and we aren't talking the actions of submitting like getting coffee for your "Master"




Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:29:17 PM)

quote:

Actually I neither want nor not want to see anything in particular here. I came into this thread (and your posts in it) totally neutral. It was my observation that you come across as being bitter. I have no vested interest in whether or not you are bitter; I am simply stating what I see here.

While I agree there is ample bullshit flung, and that we might agree or disagree on what that is, the way in which you present your views paints a picture, in my opinion, of someone who is bitter.

Yes you do..It's not true yet you still think you see it. therefore you want to see it. I don't believe your the slightest bit neutral.

The vested interest I'm sure is there if not then at best your just wrong in your accusations
If you knew me you'd see I don't have anything to be bitter about. Good business..Good Friends..Plans for the future...If you've read any of my other posts you'd know most of that.

What you see isn't bitter. It's nothing more than what I've explained before on this particular thread. You can choose to believe that or not. It's up to you. I don't like to see people pile onto someone because they've said something those people believe to be unpopular.

I guess what your having trouble understanding is how I could be happy with the way you interpret my emotions behind what I post. There are few times that I feel angry when I type. Sure I get annoyed at some posters but rarely do I get angry. Maybe your reading into my use of words or should I say style of posting. I'm an intense person other than that I don't know what else to tell you.




Lucienne -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

so, just as it's important to you that people, particularly questioning and impressionable newbies, understand that submission is not limited to having an overall submissive personality or those who are "naturally" obedient...it's important to me that people understand that there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a submissive personality, with being naturally inclined to obey, and that you have a place of value in the world.


In the context of this thread, which is from the vantage point of someone not "naturally" obedient, how is that helpful in light of the dominant presence on this thread that seems to assume that obedience should be as easy as 1 2 3 , or the sub isn't ready to be a sub? I could see why you would need to assert that view on a thread where the submissive posting it was being told she was a doormat for having a "submissive personality", but that isn't what is happening on this thread....



quote:

as always i just wish the overall message could be a positive one, where all different types are embraced and accepted. we can validate the experience and journey of one person without invalidating the journey of another.


I wish that were true too, unfortunately for the person that posted this thread, it wasn't the case as their particular troubles within their dynamic were not respected or validated by some members of this "community"




So... um... I read the first and fifth pages of this thread so please forgive me if my point is redundant, but... am I the only one who remembers daddysprop's posting history? Taken in by her "master" as a minor, adjudicated incompetent to attend to her own needs by a court of law, "master" assigned as her legal guardian, he subsequently exposes her to gang rape situations and she's maintained on this board that if he told her to kill herself she would do it. That's the journey she wants validated. In case anyone was confused.




Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:30:53 PM)

quote:

Yes, we know. And I have seen you trounce many people, none of whom, including me, has ever even addressed you.

Yes your of course innocent of any charges lol.




Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:36:34 PM)

quote:

So... um... I read the first and fifth pages of this thread so please forgive me if my point is redundant, but... am I the only one who remembers daddysprop's posting history? Taken in by her "master" as a minor, adjudicated incompetent to attend to her own needs by a court of law, "master" assigned as her legal guardian, he subsequently exposes her to gang rape situations and she's maintained on this board that if he told her to kill herself she would do it. That's the journey she wants validated. In case anyone was confused.


And what might you have in your past that you wouldn't want someone bringing up every time you speak?




Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:42:07 PM)

quote:

Some of the biggest struggles of my life were done to stand up for my convictions and what I believe to be right.

I'm doing the same thing yet you seem to think it's not valid. I may be going about it a different way than you prefer but I don't answer to you so I do things my way.

Night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Lp4w8wyy0





Zevar -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 10:54:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

You must be bitter and negative since it is the only explanation for the personal attacks you throw around to women on the boards.

You must be emotional because no one with any class would resort to the name calling and low blows you attempt to insult those who disagree with you.

Try taking a look at your body of posts and see if I am not correct. Your bitterness spews out in your words and attitude.

However, I am sure you will not see your own behavior for what it is. Calling other people's views bullshit is a sign of immaturity.

Any time anyone states an opinion, whether you agree with it or not, you personally attack them. You are unable to debate intelligently.


To be true I've had it out with Men as well and your just as guilty because all I've done is mimic what a particular person has done.


You get personal I get personal..You trounce someone who has a different view than yours..I trounce you.  If you and others would treat people like you say you do..I wouldn't do what I do and who knows..We might become friends...or not.


People don't do that though. Some person comes on here posting what others see as dribble....He/she gets their asses handed to them all under numerous guises of righteousness but the truth and end result is the same.

Am I dysfunctional? I sure am if that's how the mainstream world gets by I'll gladly take the label of dysfunctional. The difference in what I'm doing and what others are doing is that I actually see it and am fully aware when I do these things.

Say what you will.

As for obeying being 1+1? It's as easy as breathing for some people. If you deny this your full of shit(I've seen it first hand on multiple occasions)...If you agree with it then the logical result from that is you aren't as submissive as that person. Whether you choose it to be that way or not. Levels of submission are as much a fact as levels are in life in the everyday world.


Greetings Icarys:

Whew! In reading the various entries it appears that you have failed to maintain your composure regarding a subject that clearly is not worth losing sight of personal composure. I understand that your position apparently is significant to you or you would not have replied in various instances as you chose to within this thread.

I would say that in attempting to persuade others to your perspective is where you began to lose your composure which allowed for further comments on your part that are questionable from my perspective.

I say that for the following reasons:

Firstly in doing so you lost sight of the subject matter and the replies focused toward your comment(s)

Secondly if someone disagrees with a viewpoint that does not necessarily mean that force will sell them acceptance of your position. Instead it means that you have made yourself appear to be unable to debate a subject that you apparently feel strongly about. There is NO shame in feeling strongly about any subject.

Thirdly however, what is shameful is when a man allows himself to lose his composure and proceed to dig himself deeper while attempting to forcefully persuade others to agree with his viewpoint even though they have made it very clear regarding their differences in ways that anyone could understand if able to read. I am NOT trying to disgrace you in a public manner or otherwise. You have regretably done that all by yourself. What I am doing is lending a different perspective for you to consider when discussing a subject AND in particular the subject that this thread is about, Obeying.

In closing I propose the following question(s) for you to consider:

1] Why did you choose to not obey/ignore your inner instincts to remain calm and collected which in doing so can only afford you the ability to sharpen your character; in exchange for a moment of publicly disgracing the self- respect which is required to objectively listen to a different viewpoint?

2] How is the poorly guaged choice of forsaking self-respect and personal composure demonstrative of self-examination & masterly obedience?

3] How can a man that is emotionally detached & out of control teach anyone about obedience when he is unable to maintain his composure when interacting with others and in particular, women?

4 Why do you insist on insulting women who disagree with you & have an opinion that differs with yours on the subject of obedience?

Take care!




Icarys -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/24/2010 11:45:16 PM)


If this is based on what I said about getting angry before..It's not about this and it's only happened a couple of times. You can't tell me you've never lost you cool.


The last line is bullshit. I haven't singled women out...What you see is that women have been the only ones that have said anything negative in the situations/threads I've been on lately.

Would it make you feel better if I said I think your a windbag and you put on an act?




VideoAdminAlpha -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 1:10:22 AM)

~~~~ Fast Reply~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok the thread is unlocked. Possibly a word to the wise.... the discussion had somewhat digressed to INDIVIDUALS and their levels of submission, and INDIVIDUALS and their levels of dominance. Let's keep this general and not about ones opinions about other peoples "side of the kneel", it is off topic and not germaine to the discussion at hand.




juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 4:37:26 AM)

NV




juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 4:44:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Some of the biggest struggles of my life were done to stand up for my convictions and what I believe to be right.

I'm doing the same thing yet you seem to think it's not valid. I may be going about it a different way than you prefer but I don't answer to you so I do things my way.

Night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Lp4w8wyy0




My reply had nothing to do with you... just to be clear, nothing that has ever happened on collarme could be construed in my eyes to rank with "the biggest struggles of my life", that would go triple for any sort of interaction I have ever had with you.

You seem to want to make everything about you, I have attempted to ignore your posts on this thread, because frankly I am tired of it and my posting on this site is more enjoyable if I avoid you




NuevaVida -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 7:09:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I haven't seen anyone mention they were struggling to be. I saw the topic of struggling to submit on occasion. Sometimes being true to oneself means submitting at any cost, but the things we are required to submit to can be a struggle. You yourself have spoken about being in despair on more than one occasion, due to the nature of your relationship. To me, despair means a struggle of some sort.

All sorts of areas of our lives can be a struggle from time to time, even when we're being true to ourselves. In fact, sometimes being true to ourselves requires us to struggle, especially when going against what we believe in might actually be the easier choice.

I know most of you people have trouble with logic so I'll spell this out for you.



Is this an example of you not making it personal? 

And you're responding to a post I made to daddysprop.  I was addressing her assessment that people struggle to be. You have not ascertained that people struggle to be, so my post here had nothing to do with you or what you said. 
quote:


If you've ever said being submissive is part of who you are yadayada..then you've said you struggle to submit...you then are struggling with a part of yourself..and we aren't talking the actions of submitting like getting coffee for your "Master"



I actually agree with you here.  My point is that everyone on this earth, at some point or another, struggles with a part of themselves.  It does not mean they're not being true to themselves, or not ready for the life they have chosen.  Struggling is a part of life.

I do see your point in that many people say they need to submit, and then in the throws of it, struggle to live out what that actually means.  I don't think this means they're not ready, though. An example - I was recently thrown into a work situation where I thought "Hey, I can do this" but the reality was the project I was on was way over my head, and I struggled a LOT to get the data I needed, from the people I needed to provide it.  It was a huge undertaking, and I spent many evening and weekend hours pulling my hair out, wondering how I was going to get it all done.  In the end, I did get it all done, and felt really good about myself afterward. 

So yeah, I struggled.  But that didn't mean I wasn't ready for that kind of challenge.  I completed it and in doing so I found some critical problems within our workflow that I am now working on resolving.  I remained true to myself while doing it, sought help when I needed to, and completed the project before it was due with amazing results.

I'm pretty sure any of us, yourself included, can reflect on a time when an undertaking felt overwhelming but you were still able to accomplish it.  This has nothing to do with being mentally or emotionally ready for it.  It just means you were challenged, and, in my opinion, being challenged can be a really healthy thing, and critical to our personal development.




NuevaVida -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 7:29:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Actually I neither want nor not want to see anything in particular here. I came into this thread (and your posts in it) totally neutral. It was my observation that you come across as being bitter. I have no vested interest in whether or not you are bitter; I am simply stating what I see here.

While I agree there is ample bullshit flung, and that we might agree or disagree on what that is, the way in which you present your views paints a picture, in my opinion, of someone who is bitter.

Yes you do..It's not true yet you still think you see it. therefore you want to see it. I don't believe your the slightest bit neutral.


It's your prerogative to believe I am not neutral here, but you are wrong.  I have no vested interest, other than this is an interesting discussion and I like injecting my opinions into interesting discussions.  I am trying to provide an opposing view to yours, because I disagree with a lot (but not all) of what you're saying, and it feels worth my while to talk about it.

It's ok with me that you don't believe that.  [;)]

quote:


The vested interest I'm sure is there if not then at best your just wrong in your accusations
If you knew me you'd see I don't have anything to be bitter about. Good business..Good Friends..Plans for the future...If you've read any of my other posts you'd know most of that.


I have not accused anything here, so your first sentence isn't one I can really address.  I said to me, you seem bitter.  I did not say you are bitter. I was very careful in my wording, in fact, because I don't have a clue what your emotional foundation is and it would be wrong of me to conclude something I really knew very little about.  I said to me, you come across as someone who is bitter, and I based that on the negative style of your postings.  I am fully open to being wrong and maybe your mental state is so blissful you're dancing through tulips between postings. 

I have read your other posts.  If my memory serves me correctly (and it's been known to fail flat), many of them present an opposition to someone's point, in a rather negative way.  If you're a generally happy man, then that's awesome.  I'm of the opinion that an audience sees what the presenter presents, and if a large portion of the audience draws an incorrect conclusion, then the presenter is doing something wrong.  A lot of people here are saying you have a negative posting style, and my purpose for pointing out that you seem bitter was, in part, so you could understand that your posting style is sending a message that may or may not be accurate.  You say it's inaccurate, so the onus is really on you - if you don't want people to believe an inaccuracy about you that might affect the way they interpret your words, you have an opportunity to change how you're coming across.

In the past, I had been accused of being overly dramatic in the way I expressed myself.  I used to feel really defensive about that, too.  But I heard it enough that I thought hey, I'd better take a look at how I'm presenting myself, because readers are getting the wrong message.  Once I reflected on myself over time, well now I look back and think damn, they were right!! 

So I threw it out there to ya.  I actually like that you put some controversial views on the table - I think it makes for really interesting discussion.  But often times I skip over your posts because they just seem to come from too negative a place for me to participate.

quote:


What you see isn't bitter. It's nothing more than what I've explained before on this particular thread. You can choose to believe that or not. It's up to you. I don't like to see people pile onto someone because they've said something those people believe to be unpopular.


I don't like pile-ups either, but would you disagree that you're kinda doing the same thing?

quote:


I guess what your having trouble understanding is how I could be happy with the way you interpret my emotions behind what I post. There are few times that I feel angry when I type. Sure I get annoyed at some posters but rarely do I get angry. Maybe your reading into my use of words or should I say style of posting. I'm an intense person other than that I don't know what else to tell you.



I really don't think I'm reading into anything - that's not really my style.  I'm pretty literal so I don't read between the lines all that often.  But I didn't say you were angry - angry is much different than bitter.  Bitter is more like having a chip on your shoulder about something, because you were slighted in the past.  But I don't know you and can fully accept that maybe you're not bitter at all.  As an impartial reader (who thought you had good points and not so good points), I thought I'd point out how you were coming across. 

You have disagreed, and that's that.




CaringandReal -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 7:48:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I can't say that I don't expect a lot out of the people I'm with but there is room for mistakes.(Truthfully it seems so little but in this day and age it's like asking for the world itself it would seem) I really just expect a person to hold up their end of the deal by having an all around good attitude about their position and life in general. Know what I mean?


Sure. I and the people I work with do that all the time, in our small but highly motivated and rapidly rising comapny. We're all happy to be part of something interesting and while most of us aren't getting rich at it, the company has had talent so far at picking employees who are highly self-motivated and self-disciplined. Whatever the person's responsibilities, they just do what it takes to get it done--on time and in good shape. I'm a bit flabbergasted to be working in such an environment--where the majority, not the minority, excel. Most work environements I've had the "pleasure" to have visited in the past are top heavy with slackers trying to do as little as possible, hostile game players, sabotaguers, complainers, blamers of others, gossips and intriguists, petty tyrants who do nothing except make others lives miserable, emotional basketcases who are gone half the time, and all the other ugly personality types you get in the corporate mix. (Hmm, my list kind of reminds me of this mesage board.) But this strange little company has almost none of that. Maybe a little mild gossiping occasionally, but nothing intentionally malicious. The employess have, for the most part, have nice normal personalities and (gasp) mean well (sales people excluded--they can be jerks, but in most companies, I've noticed, they are something of a company unto themselves with their own rules and moral code. Unfortuantely, they are a necessary company. Even more unfortunately, they know it. :/) Once in a while a person has come in who ran counter to this general attitude, but such people almost always opted out on their own volition--they quit! Perhaps something in dishonest or emotionally off people makes them abhor/avoid a sane work climate? Almost nobody get sick here, too, which is rather spooky.

Anyway, I think I understand what you mean in a bdsm sense. Some people on here have described that attitude as generous or giving. It's also intelligent and practical, as it indicates you know your place and role in the relationship and don't (falsely) see the role of the other person as automatically less generous or more taking or privleged: you don't automatically think that they have it better than you because they are the dominant. In my experience, what makes it extremely challenging to keep up an all around good attitude, is very long denial (years) of normal human needs for company, for touch, for sex, for even hearing another's voice. Isolation gets dispiriting, particularly if its imposed after a long natual isolation (like that which occurs when one's mate dies). After a certain lengthy point, the longer it goes on the worse your emotional climate can get, because you begin to lose all hope of anything real ever happening. Still, hard times happen in relationships, even solid bdsm relationships, and there is no hard rule that says they can't sometimes they happen in the very early stages. I think that even under considerable duress, it's important to see something you think is potentially extremely worthwhile through to the end, doing your best all the while. Part of "holding up your end of the deal," after all, is not quitting prematurely.




sexyred1 -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:04:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


If this is based on what I said about getting angry before..It's not about this and it's only happened a couple of times. You can't tell me you've never lost you cool.


The last line is bullshit. I haven't singled women out...What you see is that women have been the only ones that have said anything negative in the situations/threads I've been on lately.

Would it make you feel better if I said I think your a windbag and you put on an act?



Once again, in the cold light of morning, I see you have not changed your attitude, even though everyone here has pointed out to you how often you lose your cool and attack others.

Now, you have resorted to attempting to insult Zevar, who is so far above you, that you should be flattered he even replied to your nonsense.

Face it; you lose control every time you post here,  you are like a child stomping it's foot when it cannot get it's way and having a tantrum.

You owe me and everyone you have insulted here an apology.

Your posts can only be classified as angry, frustrated tantrums and like a child who does that constantly for attention, I will not engage with you further.





CaringandReal -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:24:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

So... um... I read the first and fifth pages of this thread so please forgive me if my point is redundant, but... am I the only one who remembers daddysprop's posting history? Taken in by her "master" as a minor, adjudicated incompetent to attend to her own needs by a court of law, "master" assigned as her legal guardian, he subsequently exposes her to gang rape situations and she's maintained on this board that if he told her to kill herself she would do it. That's the journey she wants validated. In case anyone was confused.



I think it is far more rational to read and understand what a person says, and then to make up my mind about the ideas expressed, rather than have an agitated emotional response engineered by someone's attempt to discredit the individual stating the message.

It pays to remember that shooting the messenger, digging up dirt, peforming character assassination, or whatever you'd like to call something like the example above, is against the TOS. Also remember that it is often seen by others as a rather underhanded ploy, relied upon by the weak, when they cannot refute a message with honest debate. Do you wish to be seen in that light? (raises brows)




juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:29:32 AM)

quote:

It pays to remember that shooting the messenger, digging up dirt, peforming character assassination, or whatever you'd like to call something like the example above, is against the TOS. Also remember that it is often seen by others as a rather underhanded ploy, relied upon by the weak, when they cannot refute a message with honest debate. Do you wish to be seen in that light? (raises brows)


I find it ironic that you would point out this "character assassination" (which in some ways is related to daddysprop's positioning herself as a submissive personality on this thread) and yet you do not comment on a person who seems hell bent to justify his abusiveness to people on this thread because of his opinion about their posts on past threads.. engaging in a little "character assassination"of his own in the process.

Isn't funny how our personal opinions about individuals can color what we find offensive and what we do not.... even when the behavior is exactly the same?




ranja -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:34:34 AM)

i actually agree with lucienne... certain posters have a history of spouting certain ideas on these boards and yes i have read their strange accounts of things and yes it does have an impact on how i perceive anything else they post... as i think it should.
Also Lucienne was not taking part in the argument, just putting forward some additional info... stuff that peole can actually check up on once it is brought to their attention... as far as i know anyway, so i do not see how this is against the TOS.

also i would ask everybody who quotes to include the name of the poster they quote, or else the argument gets really difficult to follow... and i do like a good bash up




juliaoceania -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:38:20 AM)

If I am quoting someone, it says "in reply to" when I am trimming down the post... so if you are talking about me, I would suggest you look at who the post is "in reply" to.... technically, we don't have to use the "quote" function to reply to a post, and you would have to look at that to see who is speaking to whom anyways.




sexyred1 -> RE: Obeying isnt 1 +1 (9/25/2010 8:41:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

So... um... I read the first and fifth pages of this thread so please forgive me if my point is redundant, but... am I the only one who remembers daddysprop's posting history? Taken in by her "master" as a minor, adjudicated incompetent to attend to her own needs by a court of law, "master" assigned as her legal guardian, he subsequently exposes her to gang rape situations and she's maintained on this board that if he told her to kill herself she would do it. That's the journey she wants validated. In case anyone was confused.



I think it is far more rational to read and understand what a person says, and then to make up my mind about the ideas expressed, rather than have an agitated emotional response engineered by someone's attempt to discredit the individual stating the message.

It pays to remember that shooting the messenger, digging up dirt, peforming character assassination, or whatever you'd like to call something like the example above, is against the TOS. Also remember that it is often seen by others as a rather underhanded ploy, relied upon by the weak, when they cannot refute a message with honest debate. Do you wish to be seen in that light? (raises brows)


I see nowhere where she had an agitated emotional response, how on earth are you making that value judgement?? She is simply pointing out something that anyone with a brain understands.

When people post to topics, they do so viewed out of their own personal lens, their own experiences.

Therefore, it is usually good to know something about WHY someone feels the way they do instead of just blindly attacking them.

You would do well to apply that logic.

As far as underhanded ploys, I believe we have seen enough of that in this thread that has been derailed by one particularly abusive poster who inexplicably, has not had their posts removed, which is rather shocking to me, since it appears that one of mine, has.




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