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RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:28:34 AM

Archer

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What part of THAT LAW ALREADY EXISTS skipped through your head ?

Take a second and read the link you will see that the law already provides for that pathway, Ried is proposing that they do something they have already done. He's legislating a reinvention of the wheel. and trying to make it look like this idea that has been law for a LONG TIME is some new idea.

As for how this is different, they are both federal law, so it's like passing the first ammendment all over again and trying to take credit for crating a new right to freedom of the press.

< Message edited by Archer -- 9/22/2010 8:29:32 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 81

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:32:37 AM

mnottertail

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Hey, don't be a pedantic boor, Archie. I read just fine. The idea being if you serve honorably they aint going to impale you on the you have to be in this country legally in the first place as is current law. I think I have a grasp of the imbriglio.

Now, did you or not argue the other side of this coin on the arizona law?

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Post #: 82

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:37:30 AM

JstAnotherSub

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If my memory is working today, I recall reading that the Dream Act is specifically designed to help children who were brought here at a very young age and are here through no actions or wrongdoing of their own. Working at a school with a high latino population, and all of them being what I consider to be my babies, I gotta say, I think it is a good idea, or at least a step in the right direction.

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Post #: 83

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:42:18 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Hey, don't be a pedantic boor, Archie. I read just fine. The idea being if you serve honorably they aint going to impale you on the you have to be in this country legally in the first place as is current law. I think I have a grasp of the imbriglio.

Now, did you or not argue the other side of this coin on the arizona law?

Hang on, how the hell do they join up in the first place without valid papers? You'd expect the military to be a bit more careful about checking somebody's legal credentials to work in the 'States than (say) a domestics agency or a restaurant that needs waiting staff in a hurry.

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Post #: 84

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:49:22 AM

mnottertail

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You know we fight all over the globe bringing our brand of enlightenment to the world, don't you? Well, sometimes the i doesnt get dotted and the t doesnt get crossed, and above and beyond that, as I said earlier, it is a way to provide more cannon fodder, without reinstituing the draft, ease up on or youth. Sorta like outsourcing our wars, we know how to do outsourcing here.

Obviously, Archer and I disagree on the path to citizenship from illegal to military to applepie rodrigez, and I can't get too broke up, he's a veteran too. I respect that part of his opinion, I just ain't that against the deal.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 85

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:53:15 AM

Moonhead

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I don't get the impression that's the part of it he has a problem with, it's just fast tracking illegals.
Though as most of them are working (this is why Americans can't get jobs this year, isn't it? the story hasn't changed yet, or if it has, nobody's told popeye and the cucky twins), getting them onto the books will raise revenue from taxation*, rather than costing money to deport them.

*(hoch! ptooie!)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 86

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:58:18 AM

Archer

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Motterhead.

I provided that information in my earlier response you ignored it, but for simplicity sake I'll break it down further, (when you cut the diminutive names bullshit so will I)

question was asked and answered last time but I'll go again just for you.

STATE law mirroring FEDERAL law is different than a FEDERAL law that restates the existing law and claims it created something new.

Moonhead, you don't sign up without valid papers. It provides for LEGAL immigrants to get citizenship.

my earlier position holds true. Cutting in line has been a crime and a moral wrong since we were in grade school ourselves. Most of us would protest and be all put out if someone jumped in line 4 spaces ahead of us at the DMV and that costs us 20 minutes at most. Illegal Immigrants, children or not, who are given any preferencial treatment OVER those who have obeyed the rules and stood in line would cost them (the ones following the rules) YEARS of waiting.

Put your name on the list and wait your turn.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 87

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:58:45 AM

DomYngBlk

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That you can be a part of this community and be against the repeal of DADT is simply fucking amazing to me.

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Post #: 88

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 8:59:25 AM

mnottertail

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Well, unless I really cannot read, at the outset, I asked him where was the difference in the Arizona Law that 'mirrored' federal law, which he supports, and this law, which is a 'mirror' and he does not support, and thats when I got the 'read the fuckin manual' instead of a straightforward answer.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3273904/mpage_2/key_arizona/tm.htm#3277642

I haven't any trouble with the fact we are in disagreement, his postion might be reasoned, I certainly do not think that Archie is one of those guys who just sucks the popular ass, he has some knowledge and background in what he talks about.

I want to understand the nuance of difference here.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 89

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:02:08 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Moonhead, you don't sign up without valid papers. It provides for LEGAL immigrants to get citizenship.

Thank you. I'd thought that was one job they'd be a lot more careful about checking credentials for than most, particularly at the moment.

DYB: whenever did I say that I was?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 90

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:07:48 AM

DomYngBlk

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Sorry you didnt. I just was making an overall statement. You just happened to be the last person. Sorry

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Post #: 91

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:08:59 AM

Archer

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Not sure if I posted before or not on the DADT aspect.

I have hated the DADT policy since it's inception, I have never felt that gay soldiers sailors airmen or marines should be discharged, they served up through WWII many with distinction. DADT was a shitty compromise. 90% of the concerns expressed about gays in the military are based on nothing but bigotry and ignorance. Nobody in combat is going to be thinking about how their buddies ass looks in those jeans.

The 10% that would be a concern are easily handled with a few basic changes in policy. Sexual harassment will for a while take on many new slants and that will be a problem. But it is a set of problems that we need to work through anyway. Oddly enough some men will suddenly realize why men talking about their sexual exploits around women might be uncomfortable LOL

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 92

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:10:56 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Sorry you didnt. I just was making an overall statement. You just happened to be the last person. Sorry

No problem, it's easily done.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 93

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:21:09 AM

Archer

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So the issue I have to ask about is

What do you tell Jesus Gomez from Mexico who is #200 in line for a legal work visa filed for properly when you provide for these pathways to citizenship for the sons and daughters of illegal migrants.

"Sorry Mr Gomez we know you've been waiting for 2 years and you did everything right and yes we realize that had you simply migrated illegally 18 years ago your son could have been eligible. We're sorry that you obeying the rules has caused you to be put behind 2 million people who's parents broke the rules."

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 94

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:21:59 AM

mnottertail

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Uh, didn't know that nicking a nick was a prob, Archer, I really don't give a fuck what you call me.  So mnotterhead or ron, or mn or mnot or fuckhead, it dont matter to me, it obviously causes you great grief. It isn't an intentional irritant, I do it to everyone.

from my reading on the subject, the 'new' thingie is a twist coming from republicans. I see the dems saying that there really isnt anything new here, other than you can say it out loud.

We have a different opinion of it, no surprise.

And Mr. Gomez, there was a guy that got his ass shot off for his 'new' country, and for that reason we believe there is a distinction with a difference, and he is given preferential treatment, same as for say a postal job.........he has more points than you based on this little service to country. Same reason people who attain the age of 62 years can get social security while those of the ripe ol age of 61 and 264 days are not eligible, I know it sucks Mr. Gomez, but that is how shit works in a democratic society. Not everybody gets to belly up to the trough anytime they want.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/22/2010 9:27:34 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 95

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:35:14 AM

Archer

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Enlistment has for many years been an accelerated pathway for citizenship. It has been a pathway open to legal aliens. But it doesn't take much to get a military recruiter to have the State Department expedite a work visa when they have a signed contract of enlistment. So you could come in on a tourist visa talk to a recruiter and start the process. wait for the visa and head to basic training. I'm good with that. I'm good with the idea that military service should provide an accelerated pathway.

My issue on illgealls always goes back to Jesus Gomez who is filling out the paperwork and waiting his turn in line ending up behind 2 million illegal immigrants (sons and daughters of illegals included).

Those who snuck in and sorry but that includes the younguns as well need to go to the back of the line behind Mr Gomez.

Now if Mr Gomez was offered the chance to enlist and didn't take it and Juan Sanchez was behind him in line and said I'll take that, I'm good with that. But again sneak in and you go to the back of the line first.

< Message edited by Archer -- 9/22/2010 9:37:55 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 96

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 9:44:31 AM

mnottertail

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And I hear ya, that was the issue at the core of it. You have a valid outlook, well reasoned in that regard. I have the outlook that the sins of the fathers should not be visited on the sons, and we can solve a problem here (obviously, not to everyones satisfaction).

In our day real live draft dodgers were given a pass. I am fine with the 'hell no, we won't go' crowd, who stood up in the face of it, not the slimy, smarmy, go get daddy to do a hookaround crowd of silver spooners...............

And it is just as I said at the outset. I have no problem giving those folks a straightline, you do have a problem.

And that's where we are gonna have to leave it, because I ain't changing you, and you ain't changing me.

You have a reason, you have a logic. I respect the differing opinion in those cases.

And that's all there is to say about that, insofar as you and I are concerned.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 97

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 10:02:55 AM

tazzygirl

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And my issue is that, unlike Mr Gomez, his kids had no choice. They were brought here much like someone who was abducted and brought here. The Dream Act recognizes that, and the fact that these kids have aclimated to the American way of life.

quote:

This bill would provide certain inadmissible or deportable alien students
who graduate from US high schools,
who are of good moral character,
arrived in the U.S. as minors,
and have been in the country continuously for at least five years prior to the bill's enactment,
the opportunity to earn conditional permanent residency.

The alien students would obtain temporary residency for a six year period.

Within the six year period, a qualified student must have
"acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or [have] completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor's degree or higher degree in the United States,"
or have "served in the uniformed services for at least 2 years and, if discharged, [have] received an honorable discharge."[1]

"Any alien whose permanent resident status is terminated [according to the terms of the Act] shall return to the immigration status the alien had immediately prior to receiving conditional permanent resident status under this Act." [2]

These kids did not come here on their own. They committed no crime. They broke no rules. To compare them to adults who have committed the crime of illegal immigration is wrong, no matter how you look at it. This law is a good thing, requiring them to earn their right to remain here, in my opinion. You are certainly within your rights to disagree, but dont try and insist they broke the rules. They did not.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 98

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 10:03:23 AM

Archer

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Cool we can leave it as impasse. we're really in 80% agreement, it's a specific detail that we differ on when it comes to the issue of the enlistment pathway.

Now how do you defend the pathway that says they simply have to go to college to gain the pathway.
Again framed as how you tell Mr Gomez he can't come into the US legally for another few years because these 2 million people jumped line.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 99

RE: Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban - 9/22/2010 10:13:13 AM

Archer

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O Tazzy lets take a slightly different tact here then.

John and Sally rob a armored car they don't get caught they buy a new house with the money from the robbery and raise their kids in it, John and Sally die in a horible accident and it is then discoverd that they bought the house with money from the robbery. Do the kids get to keep the house? They didn't have a choice they didnb't rob the armored car. but we don't aloow them to profit from their parent's illegal acts

The difference is simple here, sending them back to their country is not a punishment, sending them back is simply not allowing them to profit from the illegal acts of their parents. Now I would be all in favor of a seperate immigration status for children of illegals who were minors, one that does not delay them from applying for re entry to the US through legal means, the way many illegal aliens are banned from reentry for a number of years.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 100

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