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RE: Who's really in control? - 4/26/2006 7:41:33 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
There are *TWO* opposing but complimenting powers working in concert in any D/s dynamic - not just the one (UAT?) a sub decides to grant. Just so we're clear, why do you suppose a sub seeks out a Dom/me for this wonderous UAT; why not any ole willing vanilla? Could it be she seeks and even expects something equally unique in return; some form of exchange?

Dang, finally a good point against UAT.

You're right- it does make the dominant in the passive position as being the one who gets the authority that is transferred. I chafe at that idea as well.

Obviously exchange won't work as authority isn't being exchanged.

The long version would be "dynamic in which one (or more) operates under the ultimate authority of the other, who is aware and responsible for the authority."

Ultimate Authority Operation then? Or even Cooperation? Oooo what a nifty concept! A Ms relationship dynamic of cooperation!


I don't think it makes the dominant passive at all.

Authority is the recognized right to use power or make decisions. Usually you earn that by being the type of person who makes good decisions and uses her power well.

I have power and I make decisions regardless of whether or not I'm with anyone else at all.

I have authority when they recognize that my power and my decision making supercedes their own for whatever reason. It could be because I've performed well at a job or shown myself to be honorable or I have taken the time to exercise my power and decision making ability around them. The recognition of my authority may or may not be a conscious effort on the part of the other person.

If someone does not recognize my power and decision making in relationship to them, I have no authority with them. I could try and force my power and my decisions on them but then I'm just a bully or an abuser, I'm not a dominant.

I never use these TPE sort of ideas anyway because I presonally feel they are pointless.

I have the authority in my owner-slave relationship.

We both have power and we both have control; mine take priority because I am the authority.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/26/2006 7:47:52 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		 
Goddamn that is sexy and brilliant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I love this control argument.

A woman, by simple obesiance;
doth ruleth her husband.


_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/26/2006 9:23:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		When the relationship is happy and fulfilling the answer is neither. The "relationship" is in "control". Reality is, whether vanilla or flavored, people who are successful in maintaining long term relationship can trace back their success to putting the relationship ahead of themselves. The concept works from either end of the flogger. It works when the relationship is mutually exclusive or polly. Paying lip service to pledging your life to another person, or commiting to forever take responsiblity for another, doesn't last long term. Why? Because long term there will always be distractions, large and small, that get in the way of the pledge or commitment. When they happen if you identity is still primarily as a sub who "gave up" all you had, and all your rights to another it's easy to resent that "other" when things aren't going quite right for you. As a dominant, when the responsibilities of your commitment and all it represents becomes overwhelming, you wonder if the "benefits" you get from the other's service are worth it. Even if the words are not spoken, the thought is the first cell of a cancer that eventually kills.

Instead, if the 'you' that you were is now encapsulated in a relationship, the point of focus isn't a who 'gave up' or 'got', but what the result was when you merged. The result is the relationship. All members of the relationship serve it - not each other.

Does a Master serve? Yes, he serves the relationship. When you consider a 'contract' defining the relationship and the rules for it, it is not one sided. The slave may serve the relationship by living by those rules, but the Master serves it by enforcing those rules. It takes a process of honest communication and bearing your soul to each other to achieve a foundation that establishes a relationship which is worthy of your commitment. It takes courage to be "naked" emotionally. More courage than it takes being naked in the flesh. It takes self confidence to know what you want is what you need not just for an "experience" but for a intended period of time. And it takes confidence in the other person that the commitment you are giving is the same commitment you are getting.

It works so easy after completing that process. When any doubt enters into your head about why you are doing something or what "purpose" you are serving, the answer is pointed to the relationship. Before beth and I formalized our relationship I required her and challenged her to question any action or activity whose purpose she didn't understand. I told her if I couldn't give her answer that made sense and pointed to our "goal" I would consider amending it. It generated many questions but it never resulted in change. The process evolved us.

Why does beth speak in the third person? It's a function of focusing her identity on the relationship. Why does she need to ask permission for even the most mundane things, because it defines her complete surrender of the decision process over those mundane things to the relationship. But turn those questions around, and ask why would I want to have to "micro-manage" beth; because it serves the relationship. The same way my leaving her every day to work, while she "does nothing" at the house. I'm not serving her, I'm serving the relationship. How can I resent service to something that I've longed to have and searched for thirty years to obtain?

I know this thread it about ended, but maybe this perspective will have some consider that when you wonder "who's really in control" while in a relationship, you've already started to end the relationship.

(in reply to sezM846)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/26/2006 9:26:30 AM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		Wonderfully stated. Giving life and priority to the connection is always the key to success.

The most awesome component of D/s is to have a mutual vision, and the determination move forward to meeting goals that have been set.......... it's not so much the destination that matters-it's the jounrney.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/26/2006 3:10:58 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		That was a good sum-up from M&B. The one thing that I would quibble with what asking these questions says about the one asking. One can play power games (using "game" as in game theory, in a positive sense. If all of life is a game how can playing games be a negative action) without understanding any of the dynamics. One can get a lot out of doing this but not understanding any of it. Yet I think that the experience is more rich when one brings the intellect along for the ride. The notion that caring about this stuff is a sign that those who do are in weak relationships might be true, but then maybe it instead shows that those who are wondering are determined to get the most out of BDSM.  

(in reply to Reasonable)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 1:58:31 AM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		I lit a beautiful fire and it defiantly brought the club swinging hair-dragging cavemen out to play. The sad truth is the subs/slaves do not need egomaniacal cavemen to submit to, just as Mercnbeth has pointed out and others, a sub/slave can submit to anyone who possesses dominant qualities. They crave the control that a Dominant can exert through a 24/7 TPE relationship or what ever their kink is, however the bottom line is this; the sub/slave submits to you, you agree to her limits and to the parameters of the relationship. I do not see anyone grabbing any subs/slaves by the hair here and dragging them kicking and screaming back to the cave of Dominance. In regards to limits and such there are countless threads of subs done wrong, which only supports my beliefs. I can say within the M/s relationship I hold absolute power and control, only after that control was submitted. I have 100% control over the control that is given to me. To maintain that control I have to work within the interest of the sub/slave as agreed upon in our negotiations. If I ever want to know who really has the control I simply violate the trust that was given and watch her high tail it out of here. Now the power you have 100% control over is whom you choose, and whom you choose to send away from you. That is the Dominants prerogative. If you are absolutely intent on 100% absolute control I am sure there are inflate a sub/slaves that can give you that sense of power. As M&B pointed out, the power lies in both parties living, working, and evolving the “relationship”.  Any woman wanting to surrender 100% of her being to my M/s relationship is by all means welcome. I will not lie, deceive, or manipulate her into a false sense of security. I have a great deal of respect for a slave and wouldn’t ever violate the trust she has given me. However, she will enter my life well aware of my expectations of 24/7 TPE M/s relationship and submit completely to that. I wrote a very to the point profile and will not lay a trap for anyone. The advantage of this site is we are all here for the same interests and I don’t have to introduce a Nilla girl to the life. It will not stop me from introducing a Nilla girl; nevertheless this site is a medium of greater connection.
 
 
Loki

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 4:27:17 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
There are *TWO* opposing but complimenting powers working in concert in any D/s dynamic - not just the one (UAT?) a sub decides to grant. Just so we're clear, why do you suppose a sub seeks out a Dom/me for this wonderous UAT; why not any ole willing vanilla? Could it be she seeks and even expects something equally unique in return; some form of exchange?

Dang, finally a good point against UAT.

You're right- it does make the dominant in the passive position as being the one who gets the authority that is transferred. I chafe at that idea as well.

Obviously exchange won't work as authority isn't being exchanged.

The long version would be "dynamic in which one (or more) operates under the ultimate authority of the other, who is aware and responsible for the authority."

Ultimate Authority Operation then? Or even Cooperation? Oooo what a nifty concept! A Ms relationship dynamic of cooperation!


I don't think it makes the dominant passive at all.

Authority is the recognized right to use power or make decisions. Usually you earn that by being the type of person who makes good decisions and uses her power well.

I have power and I make decisions regardless of whether or not I'm with anyone else at all.

I have authority when they recognize that my power and my decision making supercedes their own for whatever reason. It could be because I've performed well at a job or shown myself to be honorable or I have taken the time to exercise my power and decision making ability around them. The recognition of my authority may or may not be a conscious effort on the part of the other person.

If someone does not recognize my power and decision making in relationship to them, I have no authority with them. I could try and force my power and my decisions on them but then I'm just a bully or an abuser, I'm not a dominant.

I never use these TPE sort of ideas anyway because I presonally feel they are pointless.

I have the authority in my owner-slave relationship.

We both have power and we both have control; mine take priority because I am the authority.

I don't think LA actually believes a Dom to have a passive role so much as the UAT terminology and many of the "sub has control" replies in this thread implies it! 
 
I'm happy to stick with 'power exchange' because it implies and acknowledges that Dom and sub have equal power mutually desired by the other.  And you need *both* to create a working D/s dynamic.  A D/s dynamic is a *control* dynamic requiring the sub to defer if it's to work.  Therefore, Dom and sub have equal power to form that dynamic, which operates on a basis of *unequal* control.
 
Yep, the sub can choose to leave *anytime* - which acknowledges her power over the Dom.  The point many in this thread forget is that I, as a Dom, have the same power to do *exactly* the same thing to her! 
 
Anyone who has something you want has power over you - fact of life!  But intelligent and mature people won't allow that desirability to corrupt their own principles.  Fem/subs have what I desire over any vanilla, but I've been around long enough to know I have something she can't get from any vanilla, either!  I want to conrol; subs ultimately want to be controlled - she won't get that if she leaves and she won't get it if I leave.  Her power over me is identical to mine over her. 
 
But while she chooses to remain or while I choose to remain, we'll do things *MY* way!  That means our D/s relationship is based on a control dynamic.  We have equal power but control belongs to me, the *Dom*!
 
Focus.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 7:38:55 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
In relationships synergy is more important power distribution. When synergy is high, all else becomes possible.

(in reply to sezM846)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 8:57:09 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


In relationships synergy is more important power distribution. When synergy is high, all else becomes possible.


IMHO, truer words were never spoken.

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 10:25:48 AM   
rapture2778


Posts: 53
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline 		perhaps it is the way that you are looking at the situation....maybe if you thought of it as who has the "power" instead of who is in "control" it will help...no one can "control" anything ALL the time, esp. another human, unfortunately life won't allow that to take place, however you can have a complete power exchange.  To relenquish all control is almost impossible, to exchange power is a lot easier to "release"....

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/27/2006 11:48:56 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rapture2778

perhaps it is the way that you are looking at the situation....maybe if you thought of it as who has the "power" instead of who is in "control" it will help...no one can "control" anything ALL the time, esp. another human, unfortunately life won't allow that to take place, however you can have a complete power exchange.  To relenquish all control is almost impossible, to exchange power is a lot easier to "release"....


I'm not sure what you believe I need help with as I don't question who has the control whether it is direct and hands on or indirect and from afar. All decisions which I make are subject to veto, from the brand of mustard which is purchased to when the chores are done and even the bottom I may want to use as target practice.  Mainly though, I'm never, ever allowed to touch the remote control for the television even if he's not in the room with me watching it. 



Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to rapture2778)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/30/2006 8:25:43 PM   
dincubus


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/22/2005
From: South Dakota
Status: offline 		My sub and I had a conversation about this just the other day. It was along the lines of her looking over at me and asking me what it was like to be able to have that control. And then i asked her the same thing, but putting in the there how she felt about me having the control. She did indeed reply that I have the control because she chose to submit to me.
and then i did something that i believe suprised her, i looked back at her and told her "thank you"
so i do see the valid point here. those whom are Dominants, or Switches in their Dominant roles, only have the control we have because of the choices made by our submissives
quote:

ORIGINAL: sezM846

Just to stir things up a bit, and a follow on from the equality post..... in a D/s relationship... who is really in control?  i know that most of Y/you will look at this and think i am mad... it's obviously the Dom..... but think about it for a sec.  The Dom is only in control of the slave or sub because they have allowed Him/Her to be.  in my relationship with Master.. He is 100% in control and i love HIm for that... but it is because i submitted to HIm in the first place and allowed Him to take control..... so again i ask the question   Who is in control ?  Hope this doesn't offend A/anyone... and if it does i apologise in advance... offence is not what i intended.
 
sez xxxxxxxxxxxx
 

(in reply to sezM846)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Who's really in control? - 4/30/2006 8:28:01 PM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		And the total degree between any sort of D/s relationship only resides in the sort,and duration of the consent given.

So much for aguing "sub vs slave"

(in reply to dincubus)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Who's really in control? - 5/1/2006 3:08:53 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
He is in control, yes b/c i gave it to Him.
But like a gift, it is no longer mine, all His. He sets any limit, has all control. When i got collared i surrendered my safeword, because i trust Him to do nothing to mentally injure me, or physically incompacitate me.
So, at one point, it was mine, over myself, but i gave it up. i no longer have control, and prefer it that way.
The sub is only in control until she finds a Dom to give herself to.


I think I liked the statement above best of all. But I still dislike the idea of the "gift" because the principles a submissive chooses to live by are as much for herself as her master - so, there's no gift there that I can see. I wonder how far you take this, mixielicious: Would you remain under your Dom's dominion even if you preferred to leave - that is, he has refused you permission to leave him but you remain with him nonetheless?

I thought LuckyAlbatross made some good points about "authority" instead of "control." And I think many masters do indeed appreciate a certain degree of autonomy in their slaves. Micromanaging can be okay at times, at other times one needs things to work on autopilot. I doubt anyone wants an overly needy slave that has to be commanded her every motion in the day.

Focus50 uses the concept of "power exchange" and CanadianGuy said, "I'm in control, but not because my submissive said I could be." Mercnbeth also said good things about service to the relationships. I don't think the power is equal, but there is a kind of symbiosis at work.

Relating to something else that was said: I have always considered the best image of those "in love" to be two people staring into each other's eyes; but the best representation of those engaged in "loving" is the image of two people staring down the same path.

Meatcleaver said something fairly useless about the myth of the female sub shortage. There are dozens if not hundreds of so-called "subs" eager to submit to a practiced Dom - then again, many of them aren't fit to shine the shoes of an experienced Dom. A person can call themselves anything they like, but it doesn't make it so. Even so, there's still no shortage of options for a person of quality on either side of this equation. And hey, factor in "Dead Dom Syndrome" and there's such a lot of available women - truly!

I almost didn't read this thread, but I found it much more engaging this time than is usual. Many people made some fairly interesting observations. Ultimately, I think this eternally debated issue merely reveals the inadequacy of most people to fully understand or articulate what it is they are doing or why. Simultaneously, I think language itself has gaps in it that makes putting these concepts into a perfect or final statement very hard; semantic arguments crop up all over the place as a consequence of those slippages in the meanings of words.


_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 74
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