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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 9:37:27 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Communication goes two ways though, so what I got from your other post has been further clarified, which now changes things. See how that works? Maybe before you reprimand others on their communication skills, you may want to improve your own.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Could I stand to be more eloquent, absolutely. But how does that justify this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So basically what I got from your post is that your kink is a procreation strategy. For those that need it dumbed down, it means only here for the sex.


This doesn't follow from anything I actually said, you had to add something to get from my post to here. Instead of making an unflattering assumption about me and running with it you could have for instance asked a clarification question.

I'm feeling like there's little to no point in my actually writing in this conversation, mostly what I'm getting back has a lot to do with the assumptions people are making and little to do with anything I've actually said. So here you go, a blank post. Go ahead fill it out with a strawman, maybe throw some appeals to ridicule in there. You might as well, it's what you are doing anyway. 

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 9:39:15 AM   
GotSteel


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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 9:47:04 AM   
Nslavu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Communication goes two ways though, so what I got from your other post has been further clarified, which now changes things. See how that works? Maybe before you reprimand others on their communication skills, you may want to improve your own.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Could I stand to be more eloquent, absolutely. But how does that justify this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So basically what I got from your post is that your kink is a procreation strategy. For those that need it dumbed down, it means only here for the sex.


This doesn't follow from anything I actually said, you had to add something to get from my post to here. Instead of making an unflattering assumption about me and running with it you could have for instance asked a clarification question.

I'm feeling like there's little to no point in my actually writing in this conversation, mostly what I'm getting back has a lot to do with the assumptions people are making and little to do with anything I've actually said. So here you go, a blank post. Go ahead fill it out with a strawman, maybe throw some appeals to ridicule in there. You might as well, it's what you are doing anyway. 


Impressed. Though not choosing a side.

Debatable positions of actual subject matter are lost ad hominem.


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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 10:08:53 AM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		I think the process of getting to know someone in any sort of relationship  could be obliquely considered to be "testing".  Discovering who someone is isn't always easy. However, once parameters are becoming defined, a measure of clarity concerning who is who and what they need and want is crucial.

Constant "testing" might be compared to that phenomenon among canines, whereas in their social order they compete endlessly for dominance, to be the "Top Dog". This is fine for canines. But IF this constant testing occurs in a human dynamic, it can be exceptionally draining and destructive.

Some Dominants might enjoy having to apply the smackdown to someone who identifies as submissive, but then constantly attempts to top from the bottom.  They might enjoy the struggle, and the "win", if that's how they see it. Me personally? Nope. Don't like it.


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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 12:16:05 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

There's a reason "SAM" isn't usually a term of endearment. 




You're right that it isn't usually used that way, but I need to reinforce that, as in most of what we do, it depends on who you ask. KSB, one of the Keepers in our House, has a full-time live-in servant who is absolutely a SAM, and he LOVES it. She knows the rules, though -- when she's at a House event with more of the Keepers than her day-to-day Keeper present, she behaves according to the expectations/requirements of the -most stringent- of our Keepers, NOT the ones she abides by on a day-to-day basis. She wouldn't be well suited to living full-time in my sub-household -- expressing that SAM nature is crucial to her... but she's fine with it for a couple of days to a week or so (honestly, it becomes a trial for all of us when it's more than a week... that seems to be when she starts chafing at the more confining expectations of some of the rest of us... and for those who know me, I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, the most "hidebound" of our crew... now isn't THAT scary. *LOL*) That being said, he -absolutely- refers to her as "His SAM" with endearment.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/24/2010 12:18:54 PM >

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 1:28:11 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
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Status: offline 		That's really cool that they have that sort of arrangement, where she can express her SAMmieness and he enjoys it. Everybody has their own perspective on who they are, what they need, and  how they express that. It's also why clarity is exceptionally important. Also, once people clarify what the rules of the game are going to be, then playing by those rules is important for consistency.

If people initially agree to relationship dynamics. ie: "You are the Dominant, I am the submissive, and we have a shared understanding of the meaning of those words,"  but then one person spontaneously changes the rules on the other one, whether it be the Dominant or the sub, that's not cool.

The op is up front about things in her profile, concerning her misbehaviour, but then starts a thread asking if it's wrong to be this way. Well, my answer is that some Dommes  won't like it, and would really become annoyed, and refuse to keep her around. Some might, and may enjoy her challenges. I wouldn't, that's just not my type.



< Message edited by LadyRian -- 10/24/2010 1:29:03 PM >

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/24/2010 1:58:41 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Communication goes two ways though, so what I got from your other post has been further clarified, which now changes things. See how that works? Maybe before you reprimand others on their communication skills, you may want to improve your own.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Could I stand to be more eloquent, absolutely. But how does that justify this:


I don't need to justify anything.
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So basically what I got from your post is that your kink is a procreation strategy. For those that need it dumbed down, it means only here for the sex.


This doesn't follow from anything I actually said, you had to add something to get from my post to here. Instead of making an unflattering assumption about me and running with it you could have for instance asked a clarification question.

I'm feeling like there's little to no point in my actually writing in this conversation, mostly what I'm getting back has a lot to do with the assumptions people are making and little to do with anything I've actually said. So here you go, a blank post. Go ahead fill it out with a strawman, maybe throw some appeals to ridicule in there. You might as well, it's what you are doing anyway. 



It was probably this that gave me the impression:

quote:


This place is already enough of a sausage fest without actively trying to drive off all the cute young girls.


Not much of a jump, especially when the preceding sentence was this:

quote:


Two because I really don't see the need to dump a bucket of snark on the noobs, especially the female ones.


So them being female and cute seemed to be emphasized at the end of your first comment about this. Not hard to make the jump at all.

Own your words and take responsibility for them.

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/25/2010 11:31:28 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian
How many "Do Me" submissives do you encounter? Would you enjoy being viewed as a commodity? I think not. I agree that I'm not compatible with people who would prefer to see me as one who is there for nothing more than to fulfill fantasies, and not as a real person. Of course I have a problem with people like that. Don't you?  How do you handle "Do Me" submissives?

I have no problem with the idea of a dynamic where both partners can advocate to have their needs met. The OP telling her significant other what she wants in no way means that she views that person as a commodity, I reject the leap you're making to get from one to the other.

There are types of bottom other than slave and lifestyle dynamics where the role of bottom is fuzzy or even nonexistent and while I'm not looking for a brat or a switch or a kitty who will turn around and bite me if I spank her too hard that doesn't mean that those people are wrong just not for me. Considering how far outside the norm the relationship dynamics are around here I've always been surprised by the intolerance of some toward other alternative lifestyles. Don't throw stones when you live in a kink house as it were.

However if there's a role that I'm not so tolerate of it would be the "How Dare You Have Needs" top. One because it's always struck me as unhealthy for the person submitting to them, but then again what do I know, perhaps some people find that dynamic fulfilling. Two because I really don't see the need to dump a bucket of snark on the noobs, especially the female ones. This place is already enough of a sausage fest without actively trying to drive off all the cute young girls. I'd consider it a personal favor if people would stop doing that.[/bp
If w2hat I've seen from this poster so far is any indication...I don't think you have to worry about her being driven off...

To address your post...and several others...not many in this thread have flat-out told the OP that she was wrong. Most dominants have told her that she would not work in a D/s dynamic with US. I KNOW that I did. I also told her that her way of doing things might work for some dominants. This is also what many submissives told her in terms of what would work with their dominants or many of the dominants they know. Not many on here told her that she was wrong...many DID tell her what her behavior is and isn't, many called her on her "unknowing' manipulation, especially when she then admitted...by stating it as testing...that she knew all along what she is doing.

Telling someone that you recognize their game is not telling them they are wrong for playing it, it is calling it for what it is...



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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/25/2010 4:05:02 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

GotSteel,

My point (ages ago) to the OP was that if she was open with her partner about her need to push/be pushed, I thought that was ok.

My other point to her was that not being upfront about wants and needs is a very poor way to get them met, and generally results in frustating outcomes on both sides.

It is hard being new. How do you communicate what you are looking for when you don't have the words for it yet?

I think a lot of the OP's questions have been along the lines of "Is this okay?...." but then the this isn't clear and leads to personal interpretation.

I can't answer what will work in her relationship, only share how things work in mine.

This isn't a one size fits all world.

I agree that sounds like good advice to me.

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/25/2010 4:59:50 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

But when I find a submissive constantly battling me, or manipulating me in some way, I don't feel that this is very submissive behaviour. Submission is specifically what I need from them, how I need them to behave, and importantly, is something that we've both already decided upon as the prevailing dynamic of the encounter, or relationship. A submissive who won't submit is...well... not submitting.  And what does a Dominant do with a submissive who says they want to submit, but instead what they submit is a list of demands? Sort of defeats the whole purpose of it all, doesn't it.


Greetings LadyRian,

I'd posit that both the submissive and dominant party in question were not thorough in the investigation process before deciding to go forward. There's also the disconnection between orientation and practice. Unless the tug-o-war mentioned is of appeal for both parties, I'm apt to wonder why it's allowed to continue. Particularly if obedience is a staple of your dynamics. In my opinion submission is a choice and while we err on occasion, continued demonstrations of obstinate behavior would lead me to wonder if the pairing is an adequate fit. Nor do I believe that a submissive that will not submit their submission, what they're demonstrating is a conscious unwillingness to yield to your command.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/25/2010 7:59:58 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
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Status: offline 		Lovely porcelaine,
Things people discover over the course of time can be exceptionally enlightening, and explanations for these things are sometimes extremely painful. But we learn, and grow, and move forward in knowledge. Harsh lessons are the ones which stay with us the longest.




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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 10/26/2010 7:51:42 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		A girl can only get away with TELLING her Dominant what to do if they LET her.

I've no problem with My girl offering up suggestions, I welcome it and in some situations I require it. I also have no problem with her expressing her opinion.... but whoa betide her if she forgets who's the final decision is..... on ANYTHING!


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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 11/11/2010 8:41:29 PM   
lithe


Posts: 1
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		Before getting into a relationship, sacrifice of power, submission to the dominant, parties should have EQUAL bargaining power. The Dom role shouldn't be assumed when people are still agreeing as to what their relationship is to be like, who wants what etc.

I don't like the tone of some dominants who come across bossy and unflexible in their profiles, for instance. They call themselves "dominant" but a "subbie" shouldn't be jostled into assuming "this is just the way things go". You're not dominant until your subbie spells out how dominant and what sort of dominant the subbie is going to allow this particular personality/dominant to be whom they're just negotiating with at this early stage.

Sure surprise etc.. is part of the fun, being captured, trapped into the Faustian deal with the dominant, it's a fine line over into abuse, but it's a seductive fantasy too, agreeing to "extend your boundaries" so that you have to wear the bruises (you agreed !).

Each parties should think out their roles unhurried, maybe with independent advice from friends. Get this stuff right before the dominant has you chained and gagged in their dungeon and you ain't being listened to too much.

Oh, and if you don't like something the dom has done and it's all over, well that's borderline personality behaviour, "you do what I want or else", bullying patterns repeating themselves.

I hope and believe the BDSM thing will evolve beyond (in some cases) merely one "safe word".
Real relationships need real wiggle room, real collective decision making, real respect for both human's rights.

People who are boss no matter what, maybe by Royal Decree, because it's the scene way, because you're wearing a gag or get offered a spanking as a change of subject, these are potentially big-time manipulators.

I worry sbout the supply/demand of dominants and the bargaining power imbalance, maybe because the fantasy of abuse is so "sexy", maybe because all this stuff is done in semi-secret groups of people, who might be sane and reasonable but just as easily might be ex-sexual-predators negotiating the latest manifestation of fashionable wife-swapping, armed with their instant new "official" computer file.

Standing up for yourself, points of principle, challenging a dominant's decision, these are not automatically grounds for punishmentt, ridicule, dismissal, no more than a husband pulling a sulk and going and having an affair and neglecting his wife or hey, maybe beating the wife (the conventional version -- how old-fashioned, OMG etc..).

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 11/12/2010 5:28:02 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

As is, I'd slap her so hard the one head she does have would be spinning like a top.


Well that would work for me. After you slapped me like that, I would never tell you what to do again. Of course that would be because I dumped your ass, so I guess at that point you would never tell me what to do again either.

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 11/12/2010 5:39:10 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: behavingbadly

i have a bad habit of telling them what to do. is that wrong per say? i think it's more common then people think, if it's done discretely.



Depends on your relationship I guess. I would make suggestions to my Mistress, but I never told her what to do. That was her job. Do you think it's wrong? Do you feel that is why you are still single?

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RE: Telling a mistress/master what to do? - 11/12/2010 4:07:14 PM   
SAMHAIN09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: behavingbadly

i have a bad habit of telling them what to do. is that wrong per say? i think it's more common then people think, if it's done discretely.
I did it all the time when I was a sub eventually I learned a subtle way of doing it by pushing the buttons ever so descretely.I eventually evolved into a Dom though.


< Message edited by SAMHAIN09 -- 11/12/2010 4:10:19 PM >

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