RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:22:30 PM)

Here ya go..http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

Notice some of the early issues they had with the governing body..Can you see any parallels with today's issues?




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:30:53 PM)

quote:

In consideration of the above stated facts show me where your rights have been so grievously abridged to justify insurrection against your lawfully elected gov't?

How about we change "your" to "someone".

Truthfully there are too many and I don't see the relevance. I think by doing that your just looking for a detour.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:33:27 PM)

No. Did you read it?

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.




slvemike4u -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:33:57 PM)

You give me a link for the Declaration....sheesh,this was taken care of pages ago....keep up will you,The Declaration is nothing more that what it purports to be .....a Declaration of the reasons for rebellion and seperation from the colonial,imperialistic British empire....it is not a road map to justification for insurrection against the legally elected gov't of the United States.
The Declaration isn't even the instrument of gov't that any such insurrection would be tearing asunder.....that would be the Constitution...which is of course the actual instrument of government...try to keep this straight in your mind,its actually important stuff.[:)]




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:35:15 PM)

quote:

it is not a road map to justification for insurrection against the legally elected gov't of the United States.


And even if it were, we don't qualify via the listed grievances.




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:39:30 PM)

quote:

No. Did you read it?

Yes I have and your missing a pert of it...The very first part. Was that intentional?




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:41:00 PM)

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:41:03 PM)

Yes. I jumped to the checklist.

Go down through it. You'll see we're not ready.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"




slvemike4u -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:41:16 PM)

Of course not....but since their side as appropriated for themselves the mantel of patriotism....and have somehow become the righful heirs of the Founders.....the rest of us not quite as American,not quite as in touch with our heritage better  be careful lest we bring upon ourselves the dire consequences foretold by these patriotic true blue rebs in the making.




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:42:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes. I jumped to the checklist.

Go down through it. You'll see we're not ready.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"

This is modern times..Our checklists may not be the same nor do they have to be.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:42:42 PM)

I do hope they intend to fight with flintlock muskets, as the forefathers intended.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:43:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes. I jumped to the checklist.

Go down through it. You'll see we're not ready.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"

This is modern times..Our checklists may not be the same nor do they have to be.


Then my point, that you were silly to bring it up, is made.




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:43:55 PM)

quote:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"

Then we would disagree on what transient would mean.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:44:56 PM)

And so would Jefferson.

It's a damn serious list. Nothing today even approaches it.

You'd disagree on with him on "light" too.




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:45:45 PM)

quote:

Then my point, that you were silly to bring it up, is made.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes. I jumped to the checklist.

Go down through it. You'll see we're not ready.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"

This is modern times..Our checklists may not be the same nor do they have to be.


Then my point, that you were silly to bring it up, is made.

You would be wrong.




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:47:04 PM)

quote:

And so would Jefferson.

I suppose you've spoken to him lately then?




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:47:19 PM)

OK, sparky.

That you just made the same point yourself apparently doesn't matter.

This is just silly. Enjoy your beer.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:48:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

And so would Jefferson.

I suppose you've spoken to him lately then?


Sigh.

You brought up the Declaration. Glad you agree it was pointless.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:49:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK, sparky.

That you just made the same point yourself apparently doesn't matter.

This is just silly. Enjoy your beer.

... and the dismissive attitude you are displaying does nothing to heal the growing rift.

Firm




Icarys -> RE: Is this a threat? sedition? or just posturing? (10/25/2010 8:52:40 PM)

quote:

You brought up the Declaration

I brought it up because it has relevance..now I stated earlier that the grievances wouldn't likely be the same nor do they have to be. The spirit of what they meant is firmly understood.




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