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RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 9:37:29 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
A lot of people do actually. It CAN be frustrating when you're trying to convey something specific.

But there's also a difference between saying "Gosh that's annoying" and "You're forcing me to be part of your dynamic."

It is unfortunate that people get so frustrated (regarding accents and such), but I understand it happens. Having so many relatives with thick accents (mother, aunts, uncles), I grew up witnessing the rudeness of others when they could not understand. However, I think anyone communicating with someone who has an accent or speech impediment is also being forced to comprehend differently. Whether 3rd person speech, accents, speech impediments, etc., those who interact with people who have "different" dialogue have a choice to interact or not. Being critical really does nothing to change the dynamic.

Taking your analogue, then these persons (like a lot of annoying French farts in Paris) affect an accent when they are prefectly able to speak coherently and are so intentionally making communications difficult.

(Outside of France) I haven't met too many people like this. Most foreign speakers make great efforts to make their communications in a new language as coherent as possible.

This is exactly the opposite of the "this girl" crowd. They, on the other hand, are prefectly capable of using standard English and as a affectation us this approach. To be even more insulting, the vast majority inflict it only on others whom they see as being vunerable and don't do so on innocent bartenders, taxi drivers and traffic cops.

Thus it is very clearly a clear attempt to draw us into their specific scene without seeking consent.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 81

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 11:16:44 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

third person speech?

I don't use it... and don't want my girls ever to use it! Many have interacted with me in the online that used the 3rd person... but has of yet I have never seen a single person that used it outside of the online. So. I can speak with authority of my view on it online... but have no experience in person and can only make a reasonable opinion based on my perferences.

I find most that use the 3rd person to be highly ineffective in there use of it. It is actually very few that use it in a manner that conveys a smooth and easy read. I will make note that beth happens to be one that I generally find very easy to read and her use of the 3rd person is rather unnoticed. AND that is the point! I find to many use the 3rd person... and instead of drawing attention away from themself as one of the primary reason people use it... they actually are drawing attention to themself in it's use. They ineffect OVER use it.! This over use is not much different tha someone use I this I that I did etc etc etc... good ole "I" disease.

It would be interesting to actually interact with someone in person that effectively uses third person speech. I hope some day to venture to the west coast and maybe even meet Merc & beth... It will definitely be an opportuntiy to experience something that I have yet to enjoy in person, a person that uses 3rd person speech.

Many individuals are very ineffective communicators. When you place the parameters of 3rd person speech on such individuals...well it will just increase the ineffectiveness of the communication... not improve it. I also see it as bringing more attention on the person that uses 3rd person speech.. which in of it self seems contrary to the reasons for it's use.

just a few thoughts.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to valeca)

Post #: 82

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 11:44:38 AM

valeca

Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

However, your statement implies that a slave speaking in the 3rd person is choosing to do so. If she is simply obeying orders, than we are really just frustrated with her for her obedience. To become annoyed at her for what that obedience is, is a bit unfair in my opinion.

Well, since my original post went so far into left field, I'll join in the direction it's gone.

I'm not singling you out owned, just using your quote for a purpose. I agree that if she's following orders, things are all fine and dandy and she's doing as she should.

But I'm curious how others feel if it's used by someone who's not owned/following orders? Does it change anyone's thoughts on it when presented in this light?

Does it become a more irritating trait because of choosing to use it herself, or is there a level of admiration for someone who can take the heat/critisism for using it, and continuing to use it in the face of animosity?

_____________________________

~valeca, Owned and Operated by Loraith.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 83

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 11:57:10 AM

JoeT2000

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline

Tal, welcome to McDonald's may a girl take Master's order?

Does that sound familiar... a trained response with little or no meaning. Do fry's come with that honourific ? I think the reason it irritates is it impersonalises the relationship. I once confused a McDonalds "girl", when she said "have a nice day" by asking if she sincerely meant that. Brain overload... stepford wife in need of a service !

For those in D/s who see the relationship of Dom/sub or Master/slave as exquisitely intimate ... and not objectified, I think the irritation is highly understandable.

The conversations are great though between first and third personers...
"she asks for forgiveness from a Master"...
"who does"...
"she does"...
"where is she"...
"she is here"
"but where"
"a girl is here"
"which girl and for that matter, which Master" and yes, it is a bastardisation of the English language - communication... oh misery... I miss you.

Why does "girl" irritate... same reason really... impersonal, factually inaccurate as they're well over the age of consent and I've often seen it used by subs/slaves who squeal in their middle age passion, curling a finger in their pigtails, while sucking their lollypop and shouting oh yes Daddy yes - sorry if it offends but it is one of my hardest limits... I like intelligent sensual women, not vapid wannabe children, but each to their own.

I suppose in some ways, using "I" suggests ownership of emotions and actions (perish the thought) and taking responsibility for them. "a girl wishes" doesn't even imply ownership. I know it's important to some, but I hold it in similar regard to morris dancing.

Joe

If they do it again... poke em in the "I"s.

< Message edited by JoeT2000 -- 4/27/2006 12:04:25 PM >

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 84

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 12:09:52 PM

cariad

Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline

girl uses third person because it is what she was taught, and while at times it does extend to r/l for her, she usually catches herself if in a "Nilla" setting and uses i, etc but mostly she uses girl or this girl or this slave because it is now a mindset for her. as she has had it ingrained for so long, that unless trained to do otherwise she doesn't think she could give up speaking third person.

_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to JoeT2000)

Post #: 85

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 12:12:58 PM

JoeT2000

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Joined: 4/4/2006
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This Master wonders if fyreredsub in her 24/7 Gorean lifestyle goes to walmart brazenly bearing her breasts as a pierced ear girl and being available for any Master to forceably take.

I have yet to meet a real member of the Assassin's Guild who didn't work in IT.

I have yet to meet a Master who flies his Tarn to work.

As for it being wrong to be irritated by an "affected" pattern of speech... Margaret Thatcher also spoke in the third person (I found it equally irritating). I used to have a member of staff who used to talk as if he were on a Monte Python film and was a Knight of St Ni, equally comparable in my opinion.

If I offend the Priest Kings, I accept their judgment, although careful Minsk, of you great insectoid ruler... I have a kettle here of boiling water.

< Message edited by JoeT2000 -- 4/27/2006 12:19:34 PM >

(in reply to fyreredsub)

Post #: 86

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 12:44:59 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

This Master wonders

Joe,
From your profile, you "live for scuba diving" do you wear your tank mask and wet suit brazenly into Walmart?

btw - I've always been curious about this. Since your profile indicates you are seeking and don't have a slave, exactly what are you responsible for as a "master"?

(in reply to JoeT2000)

Post #: 87

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 12:53:09 PM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline

I have no problem with 3rd person speech,. At the most, I find it a bit curious. I also don't feel that I was somehow victimized and nonconsensually pulled into someone's scene if I happen across a 3rd person speaker. In fact, I find that whole concept of victimization via interaction laughable.

But then I also have no problem with accents and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into someone's ethnicity.
I have no problem with stuttering and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into someone's speech impediment.
I have no problem with profantity and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into someone's obscenities.
I have no problem with 'jive' (or I guess now called Ebonics) and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into someone's culture.
I have no problem with kids yelling at the playground and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into their childhood.
I have no problem with truck-stop waitresses calling me "hun" and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into their romance.
I have no problem with pretentious, pompous, know-it-alls who try to use the biggest words possible, and I don't feel nonconsensually pulled into their ivy league.

Those concepts are rediculous to me. I have control over myself and short of someone assaulting me from behind, I really don't give others the power to nonconsensually pull me into anything, especially in such a miniscule manner as their speaking patterns. I'd really have to look long and hard at my own level of self-control if I felt that I was being nonconsensually coerced into things based on how others present themselves.

I find it mildly amusing that some people are so damn bored and discontented with their own lives that they'd let such a insignificant thing as how someone else talks bother them so much. Seems to me, if it's causing even the slightest hint of turmoil in a person's life that others speak differently, it might be time to do some self-reflection on what the real issue is.

(Used fast reply, not aimed at the last poster.)

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 88

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 1:17:07 PM

JoeT2000

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline

"This Master wonders" was an affected form of speech spoken in irony. I was being facetious I'm sorry to say. Yanno... sarcastic like. Besides... as the thread is on Gorean speech patterns, and I'm a Free Man, I would be perfectly entitled to call myself Master. (although personally, I agree, that you're only a Master if you have someone collared).

No, I can honestly say I don't go to Wallmart in my scuba gear (my profile doesn't say 24/7 scuba, ok... lives for is perhaps too much). Make you a deal... as you bounce your basketball down aisle 7... you'll find me at the fish deli counter with my speargun, buy you a beer after if you don't mind being seen out with me in neoprene. I promise I won't "communicate" with you using diving sign language.

My comment to fyreredsub was that I doubt 24/7 Gorean extends to all things. Sure, you may choose to speak third person, but certain aspects of Gor wouldn't apply. If you don't go half naked to walmart, why speak in third person all the time.
As for the previous post, I don't find "this girl" talk devastates me, I simply find it irritating. In much the same way I would a white middle class kid being a "home boy" and "hanging out with the hood" or whatever crap they say. It isn't about genuine culture, it's about affected culture. I don't, for one moment suggest they shouldn't, but simply that it's irritating.

Some aspects of Gor I don't like. Forced collaring is a perfect example. That isn't to say I disagree with it all.

Joe

< Message edited by JoeT2000 -- 4/27/2006 1:41:07 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 89

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 1:38:06 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

as you bounce your basketball down aisle 7... you'll find me at the fish deli counter with my speargun, buy you a beer after if you don't mind being seen out with me in neoprene. I promise I won't "communicate" with you using diving sign language.

Joe,
Never one to ever stoop to sarcasm, perhaps I didn't appreciate it. But I'll buy the beer anyway.

The most surprising aspect of your post was that I didn't realize there was a Walmart nearby Carlisle UK. But as long as you don't use the universal "sign" of the solo middle finger, under water or not, I'm sure we'll communicate just fine.

If only we could have all else in our life's perfect so that 3rd person speech, or "middle class kids" playing "home boy" was the only source of irritation. Be well.

(in reply to JoeT2000)

Post #: 90

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 1:44:55 PM

JoeT2000

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline

Yep, Walmart came to England. They bought the ASDA chain. I certainly wouldn't stoop to using the middle finger, and enjoy your posts. Sarcasm can be a very English trait (although I'm not convinced it hasn't travelled across the pond).

Cheers Mercnbeth.

Joe

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 91

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 2:58:03 PM

VvShadowspawnvV

Posts: 218
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline

In the Gor books, kajirae do NOT always speak in the third person. Online, it seems to be almost a requirement. Perhaps this is because, online, there is no brand or collar to remind the girl (and everyone else) of her place? Just my two copper tarsks...

becca

(in reply to valeca)

Post #: 92

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:04:34 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Taking your analogue, then these persons (like a lot of annoying French farts in Paris) affect an accent when they are prefectly able to speak coherently and are so intentionally making communications difficult.

(Outside of France) I haven't met too many people like this. Most foreign speakers make great efforts to make their communications in a new language as coherent as possible.

This is exactly the opposite of the "this girl" crowd. They, on the other hand, are prefectly capable of using standard English and as a affectation us this approach. To be even more insulting, the vast majority inflict it only on others whom they see as being vunerable and don't do so on innocent bartenders, taxi drivers and traffic cops.

Thus it is very clearly a clear attempt to draw us into their specific scene without seeking consent.

John, you make a great point. However, lol, tell that to my mother when she heightens her accent to a non-understandable level when she finds it convenient. :)

The point i was ultimately trying to make is, if a girl is obeying orders, then she is not attempting anything but to please her Master. If her duties to her Master annoy people so much, they should take it up with He/She who is in charge.

Personally, i am glad my Master has no interest in 3rd person speaking. He finds ways which are much more effective to me, to put my mindset exactly where it needs to be.

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 93

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:22:18 PM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
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she chuckles

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to JoeT2000)

Post #: 94

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:28:59 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

...I will make note that beth happens to be one that I generally find very easy to read and her use of the 3rd person is rather unnoticed. AND that is the point! I find to many use the 3rd person... and instead of drawing attention away from themself as one of the primary reason people use it... they actually are drawing attention to themself in it's use...

thank you for the compliment, KnightofMists.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 95

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:47:15 PM

Shadoes

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/26/2005
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*chuckles* No I can say fyre doesn't walk into Walmart with anything bared as that is reserved for Another. fyre does as she is instructed as any good slave will. Being a slave does not in any way imply that she is up for use by any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to walk by. Goreans were actually pretty possessive of thier personal property and didn't tend to share personal girls. Gor is different for different people. I doubt very much Anyone that identifies with the Gorean lifestyle honestly believes they live on Gor or that they ride big yellow canaries called Tarns.

If 3rd person irritates You then don't have Your girls use it. As for fyre and any other slave here that uses it they are obeying thier Owners instructions as they should.

Shadoes

(in reply to JoeT2000)

Post #: 96

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:50:49 PM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: valeca

But I'm curious how others feel if it's used by someone who's not owned/following orders? Does it change anyone's thoughts on it when presented in this light?

Does it become a more irritating trait because of choosing to use it herself, or is there a level of admiration for someone who can take the heat/critisism for using it, and continuing to use it in the face of animosity?

The only way to become truly skilled at something is to spend time practicing. It is the opinion of this author that it is a mark of dedication to attempt to learn something on one's own, especially if what one is practicing and attempting to learn is something that might be beneficial to the direction that one wishes to go. Therefore, when encountering someone who has made that attempt to go above and beyond another's expectations in search of their goal, it is difficult to feel much besides respect (and occasionally the desire to assist the individual into a more... graceful expression of what he or she is attempting.)

Lady Zephyr

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to valeca)

Post #: 97

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 3:52:01 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

I can sympathize with that sentiment.

As the Master-how do you deal with her-or you, taking flack over it?

Does it matter?

(in reply to Shadoes)

Post #: 98

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 4:02:46 PM

Shadoes

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/26/2005
Status: offline

Well I can't really say how a Master would feel or deal with the situation since I am Mistress of the House. But I can say that regardless of what He or anyone else thinks fyre will do as We command. Our way of Gor may not be Everyone's, what works for Us may not work for You though We do strive to be true to the philosophy of Gor. I don't believe that the Priest Kings rule My world but I do believe in the natural order of Men being more dominant by nature. I am sure that will open a can of worms coming from a Free Woman. I do not believe I am equal to any Man nor will I ever, I will show respect where it is earned and polite courtesy where it is not, though I will speak My mind.

As for does it matter? The only thing that matters is that fyre do as We instruct her, whether Anyone else likes it or not.

Shadoes

< Message edited by Shadoes -- 4/27/2006 4:09:28 PM >

(in reply to Reasonable)

Post #: 99

RE: For those who use 3rd person speak... - 4/27/2006 4:06:52 PM

nikaa

Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
A lot of people do actually. It CAN be frustrating when you're trying to convey something specific.

But there's also a difference between saying "Gosh that's annoying" and "You're forcing me to be part of your dynamic."

It is unfortunate that people get so frustrated (regarding accents and such), but I understand it happens. Having so many relatives with thick accents (mother, aunts, uncles), I grew up witnessing the rudeness of others when they could not understand. However, I think anyone communicating with someone who has an accent or speech impediment is also being forced to comprehend differently. Whether 3rd person speech, accents, speech impediments, etc., those who interact with people who have "different" dialogue have a choice to interact or not. Being critical really does nothing to change the dynamic.

Taking your analogue, then these persons (like a lot of annoying French farts in Paris) affect an accent when they are prefectly able to speak coherently and are so intentionally making communications difficult.

(Outside of France) I haven't met too many people like this. Most foreign speakers make great efforts to make their communications in a new language as coherent as possible.

This is exactly the opposite of the "this girl" crowd. They, on the other hand, are prefectly capable of using standard English and as a affectation us this approach. To be even more insulting, the vast majority inflict it only on others whom they see as being vunerable and don't do so on innocent bartenders, taxi drivers and traffic cops.

Thus it is very clearly a clear attempt to draw us into their specific scene without seeking consent.

I am not sure I agree with you John. I know many parts of the United States where you have to speak Spanish either as a first or a second language in order to get a job , espeically if it's one dealing with the public in any form.

I also do not see this a slave speaking 3rd person as them forcing me, you or the person down the street into a scene. That is like saying that because my daughter and I are having a conversation in mandorin that you must speak mandarin to join in the conversation.

You don't have to like it or understand it. You can simply skip the posts done by those speaking 3rd person. Just because "YOU" choose to read it doesn't mean they are forcing you to anymore than a chinese restraunts forces you to use chopsticks when you eat.

However, I learned long ago that those within various alternative lifestyles are often just as critical if not more so than others that live the conservative or vanilla lifestyles.

Go figure.

Nika{Phoenix}

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 100

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