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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:01:46 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

Ok...I'm going out on a limb here and might piss some people off....but how the heck can you have a CHRISTIAN KINK connection when half of the bdsm/kink/whatever you want to call it stuff is against Christian ideals and principles?


Actually quite easily.  Have you thought much about the bible?  Men were dominant, women were submissive and in their place. There's actually poly families in the bible too.  Men had several wives, they even had slaves.  On top of that, if their women got out of hand they were allowed to punish.

think about it

(in reply to OnyxGoddess)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:13:02 PM   
Wulfchyld


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quote:

Ok...I'm going out on a limb here and might piss some people off....but how the heck can you have a CHRISTIAN KINK connection when half of the bdsm/kink/whatever you want to call it stuff is against Christian ideals and principles?


You have to get in the "Habit" to really enjoy it.

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:16:02 PM   
misfire


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From: Greenville, SC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

You have to get in the "Habit" to really enjoy it.


Ohh, you.. ;)  Where's my ruler when I need one?

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:16:35 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess
Ok...I'm going out on a limb here and might piss some people off....but how the heck can you have a CHRISTIAN KINK connection when half of the bdsm/kink/whatever you want to call it stuff is against Christian ideals and principles?

This is the biggest oxymoron i've ever come across. The master slave love thing ok...fine. Facesititng/bootworship/pony play/anal/etc etc all that stuff is considered-deviant and immoral.

Considering I grew up in a christian household, the only things not-christian I can think of would be:
a) sex without marriage
b) homosexual actions
c) contraception sex (and many christians disagree with this)
d) worship of the dominant

I don't recall seeing anything about Christianity being against a married woman and man engaging in kinky activities, and certainly nothing wrong with someone agreeing to serve and obey another.

What makes you think that face sitting isn't christian?


Not an attack on you, LuckyAlbatross, but just a general comment about your list and several other things that people have said are "Christian".

I don't see much that is "Christian" in these lists. I see Hebrew tradtions and ancient attitudes but nothing particular Christian.

Of course, the sect I was raised it had only one real rule: If Jesus said it, we believe it; if he is silent, that's between you and God.

As a historian I learned that "what Jesus said" isn't clear cut and varies from document to document.

Now I'm going to be totally heretical and say that I think most religions have greater similarities and differ primarily in the narrative details such as actors and time periods.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:21:30 PM   
Wulfchyld


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quote:

ORIGINAL: misfire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

You have to get in the "Habit" to really enjoy it.


Ohh, you.. ;)  Where's my ruler when I need one?

 

I'm right here!

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to misfire)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:32:23 PM   
ladychatterley


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First of all, no one actually takes the Bible literally.  The people who claim that they can't believe in evolution because they believe every word of the Bible is literal don't have a problem with indoor plumbing and they seem to live in Polyester blends.  If I were to take the Bible literally, I'd have to stone to death all rebellious sons (but not daughters--you know, if I wanted to establish a matriarchy, this might be a good way to start), anyone who eats shellfish (which is treated the exact same way and with the exact same language [abomination] as male homosexuality--lesbians, of course, are fine, according to the Bible), and anyone working on the Sabbath.

I would have to stop anyone from rotating crops in fields, or wearing mixed fiber clothing.  And, frankly, football.  The Bible says you can't touch the skin of a dead pig.  Does the fact that it is artificial really make it OK?  I think not!

I'm Christian and kinky and I have to say that right now, at least in the States, there are huge questions about what "Christian" means.  I find it much, much easier to be pro-kink and Christian than to be pro-war and Christian.  But then I define myself as Christian because I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, not a single book of the old testament (Leviticus) which is where the fundies get most of their ammunition.  For me, it means help the poor, "judge not lest ye be judged," and "HELP THE POOR." Funny, Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality once, and he didn’t really seem to be anti-any kind of sex, unless you consider stopping the death of a prostitute anti-sex?  I guess he was too busy hanging around with 12 of his closest male friends!  While the Bible is pretty clear about adultery, I have always viewed that as not betraying anyone.  Personally, I’m a serial monogamist (SM?), but I think you can very easily argue that it isn’t adultery if your partner knows what’s going on.  And I do think it is wrong to have sex with someone other than your spouse if your spouse doesn’t know what is going on.

Ultimately, for me being Christian means trying to have a little bit of a positive impact on the world, hold yourself to a higher standard than others, for you don't know what they are going through, be present in the community, and have some humility because us humans can't necessarily understand everything.  Leave a little room for mystery in the world.  But the way that Christianity is portrayed by the mainstream media in the US is antithetical to everything I believe--Jesus was not pro-rich or pro-war or pro-global-warming or anti-science.  The idea that Jesus would support a capital-gains tax cut or the war in Iraq is idiotic and the idea that we are supposed to let the rest of the world get worse and worse (or make it get worse) so that everyone except the chosen (and I of course am a chosen one--Jesus told me to start judging my neighbors because God is too busy to get around to everyone) will be annihilated in an apocalypse is terrifying.  But my church (Episcopal) is Exhibit A in what the fundies think is wrong with this country and I’m sure if I were prominent enough, I’d be exhibit B.  I haven’t exactly been out at my church, although a couple of people know, but I’m one of the only straight people in my church, and our church welcomes everyone (sort of-- we would have a hard time welcoming Fred Phelps or Pat Buchanan and anyone that made other people feel unwelcome, so I guess we don’t welcome all -- that Tom Lehrer line “I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I HATE people like that! wouldn't be out of place at my church.)  But in some ways, Christianity is a Rorschach test and people (myself included) see what they are looking for.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:33:31 PM   
truesub4u


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Sit back with Level... grabs a drink.. and some popcorn...

I was going to respond... deleted it 3 times... think i'll wait a few... want to make sure not to piss anyone off.... so trying to make sure my wording is more non offensive....


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Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 7:41:45 PM   
misfire


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From: Greenville, SC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley

First of all, no one actually takes the Bible literally.  The people who claim that they can't believe in evolution because they believe every word of the Bible is literal don't have a problem with indoor plumbing and they seem to live in Polyester blends. ... But in some ways, Christianity is a Rorschach test and people (myself included) see what they are looking for.


I hate that.  I hate the cherry-picking of verses to suit whatever purpose is being championed.

However, I love your post, and I raise my glass to you.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 8:29:52 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

Sit back with Level... grabs a drink.. and some popcorn...

I was going to respond... deleted it 3 times... think i'll wait a few... want to make sure not to piss anyone off.... so trying to make sure my wording is more non offensive....



Awww come on, true, let 'er rip LOL.....
 
I'm probably a mongrel when it comes to spirituality (or kink, or politics, etc), but anyone wanting to read some Christian perspectives that aren't full of hate might give Tom Stella, Bishop John Shelby Spong, or Phillip Gulley a look. The work of folks like these have kept my religious "light" from being totally extinguished.
 
I wonder how kink looks from a Buddhist or Muslim's eyes?

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 8:33:35 PM   
ladychatterley


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Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: misfire

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley

First of all, no one actually takes the Bible literally.  The people who claim that they can't believe in evolution because they believe every word of the Bible is literal don't have a problem with indoor plumbing and they seem to live in Polyester blends. ... But in some ways, Christianity is a Rorschach test and people (myself included) see what they are looking for.


I hate that.  I hate the cherry-picking of verses to suit whatever purpose is being championed.

However, I love your post, and I raise my glass to you.


The problem is, the Bible contradicts itself; Jesus says "judge not lest ye be judged" and Leviticus has a whole lot of judging going on!  When do we follow?  I know what I follow, but I also want to be clear that everyone is cherry picking.  It is impossible to fully live the Bible.   And, frankly, even if there weren't the contradictions, it would be very difficult to actually live by the Biblical standards.  For example, the Bible specifies that if you want to go to the bathroom (obviously not the phrase they use), you have to go so many leagues out of town and dig a hole so many some-thing-or-other deep.  Well, I live in Manhattan, so...  does that mean I go to New Jersey?  Brooklyn?  Surely the river isn't what they had in mind because I can't dig a hole.  Or perhaps city limits are arbitrary, so I need to go to the countryside?    This made perfect sense in the days before indoor plumbing (I LOVE indoor plumbing, despite the fact that it directly contradicts the Bible).  So, when something contradicts itself in so many ways, there is no possible way anyone can live by it all. 

Oh, and the Bible condones slavery, but you can only have slaves from neigboring countries.  Now, I think that means wiitwd is OK, but ONLY if an American master has a Candian or Mexican slave--you Americans with Americans, you are out of luck!

Off topic, but, Bill Moyers has one of the most extraordinary speeches on Christianity and current politics at: http://www.unionpodcast.org/episodes/2005/09/bill-moyers.html
He is just extraordinary and it is long, but so moving and beautiful and idealistic and scary.
You can skip to 5:20 (up till then, mostly re: Union Theological Seminary's history),
5:20 history religion US founding,
or can skip to 8:40 why "Soul Freedom" is under attack in this country--9-11 and our response.  15:15 apocalyptic Christianity & fundamentalism

(in reply to misfire)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 8:45:08 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld
Lets not forget to give a round of applause to Tomas de Torquemada, he gave BDSM quite a few jewels in its crown.

Hear, hear! We have the Inquisition to thank for so very much of our esthetic. I prefer the Roman sensibility but there is something deeply moving about a dank, Mediaeval dungeon that the Dominicans infused into our genes. I often wonder how much European kinkiness is the echoes of those cruelties. 

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 8:52:31 PM   
FangsNfeet


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How is BDSM kink anti christain? The bible is filled with ideals of submissivness, dominance, and discipline. Sure, the bible lays down a don't or two on some kinks such as anal sex but there's not actualy commandment that says "Thou shalt not be kinky" Infact, very little of what goes on in the bedroom has been said to be immoral. There are many BDSM lifestylers who can still live to the standards laid out by Christianity.

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(in reply to OnyxGoddess)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:00:45 PM   
MsPoetress


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In response to SimplyV - I was raised in a Christian home and I am a PK (Pastor’s Kid). When I turned 18 and got all my piercings and tattoos I was told that I was desecrating God’s temple. In return I replied I was decorating it. Hence to say that did not bow over well…oh well.

~poe

_____________________________

~poe

I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here, it's the fad for many a year, if you think we're crazy my dear, you're right cause I'M mad, YOU'RE mad, we're ALL mad here! - Mad Hatter

(in reply to MstrTiger)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:02:41 PM   
cravinspankin


Posts: 127
Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess

Ok...I'm going out on a limb here and might piss some people off....but how the heck can you have a CHRISTIAN KINK connection when half of the bdsm/kink/whatever you want to call it stuff is against Christian ideals and principles? 
 
This is the biggest oxymoron i've ever come across.  The master slave love thing ok...fine.  Facesititng/bootworship/pony play/anal/etc etc all that stuff is considered-deviant and immoral.


Christianity also teaches that none of us are free of sin, and to judge not lest we be judged

(in reply to OnyxGoddess)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:03:46 PM   
MsPoetress


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As far as the clitoris being removed it is said that they perform female genital mutilation as a means of controlling women's sexual drive so that they remain faithful to their husbands. Other reasons given, according to the research, include the belief that the female private part is dirty and it is more hygienic if the clitoris is removed. There are also communities, who believe that the clitoris will kill a child coming through the birth canal, if the organ is not removed in good time. Mostly this happens in Africa though I recall reading something about the old culture Chinese in a Time magazine doing the same thing to young women.  ~poe

_____________________________

~poe

I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here, it's the fad for many a year, if you think we're crazy my dear, you're right cause I'M mad, YOU'RE mad, we're ALL mad here! - Mad Hatter

(in reply to MstrTiger)
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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:06:00 PM   
Wulfchyld


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I would love to see it decorated for Christmas, MsPoetress. *Wonders were the ornaments would hang?*

Tipping my mad hatter hat to you
Loki


_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to MsPoetress)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:06:47 PM   
QuietDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
anyone wanting to read some Christian perspectives that aren't full of hate might give Tom Stella, Bishop John Shelby Spong, or Phillip Gulley a look.


Hooray for John Spong!!!  If you put these other two into the same category as Spong, I'll make a note to look into them.  Let me add another name: Marcus Borg.

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RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:33:14 PM   
ladychatterley


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
anyone wanting to read some Christian perspectives that aren't full of hate might give Tom Stella, Bishop John Shelby Spong, or Phillip Gulley a look.


Hooray for John Spong!!!  If you put these other two into the same category as Spong, I'll make a note to look into them.  Let me add another name: Marcus Borg.

And Mathew Fox!!!!  He may have gotten kicked out of the Roman Catholic Church (he's now Episcopal), but his work, believing we are born out of original blessing and working with people from all the major traditions of the world appeals so greatly to me.  (Am I the only one that finds Borg earnest, and thoughtful and good, but a tiny bit boring--something I read because I ought to, but it never grabs me?
But Rumi, Jon Kabit Zinn, Tich Naht Hahn, Jack Kornfeld, Hildegard of Bingen and Thomas Aquinas are all in the same tradition, not in the same religion, but in the same sense of finding our better selves and doing so in community.

(in reply to QuietDom)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 9:39:11 PM   
misfire


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley

The problem is, the Bible contradicts itself; Jesus says "judge not lest ye be judged" and Leviticus has a whole lot of judging going on!  When do we follow?  I know what I follow, but I also want to be clear that everyone is cherry picking.  It is impossible to fully live the Bible.   And, frankly, even if there weren't the contradictions, it would be very difficult to actually live by the Biblical standards.  For example, the Bible specifies that if you want to go to the bathroom (obviously not the phrase they use), you have to go so many leagues out of town and dig a hole so many some-thing-or-other deep.  Well, I live in Manhattan, so...  does that mean I go to New Jersey?  Brooklyn?  Surely the river isn't what they had in mind because I can't dig a hole.  Or perhaps city limits are arbitrary, so I need to go to the countryside?    This made perfect sense in the days before indoor plumbing (I LOVE indoor plumbing, despite the fact that it directly contradicts the Bible).  So, when something contradicts itself in so many ways, there is no possible way anyone can live by it all.


I think I see what you're saying; you can either live by the Bible to the letter of the law, or you interpret it as you see fit, and it's damn near impossible to live everything out as written.  The thing for me is, Leviticus, along with the rest of the Old Testament, doesn't really have any modern-day applications whatsoever, and anyone dragging out Old Testament verses to say "this is the one true way of Christianity" didn't pick up on that coming-of-Christ-fulfilling-that-covenant thing.  The New Testament is full of gospels and letters, and most people lose sight of the words of Jesus in exchange for Paul's rantings and ravings.  The message I picked up from the New Testament was "this is what Jesus was like, and this is what we should try to be like.  Oh, and Paul warns the church about becoming 'too' secular and losing sight of God, and John of Patmos bit into some really weird mushrooms when he wrote Revelation."  I just hate it when people'll rant and rave about homosexuality or other 'deviant practices' (which, conveniently enough, were never mentioned in the Bible) being an abomination while strapping on a lobster bib and talking about working Saturdays.
Of course, that's just me.  ;)

But I do see what you're saying, and I completely agree with you.


(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Christian Kink - 4/26/2006 11:54:27 PM   
SimplyV


Posts: 351
Joined: 11/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

In response to SimplyV - I was raised in a Christian home and I am a PK (Pastor’s Kid). When I turned 18 and got all my piercings and tattoos I was told that I was desecrating God’s temple. In return I replied I was decorating it. Hence to say that did not bow over well…oh well.

~poe


*laughs* I had a huge debate on a Christian BDSM forum about tattoos once.  The main verse that states "no tattoos" right before it says "no cutting your hair".. I love the clean cut Christians that try to say "no tattoos".. Too much fun. (Leviticus 19:27-28)

(in reply to MsPoetress)
Profile   Post #: 40
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