Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward)


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 4:52:38 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Original: tazzygirl

So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.



Tazz, Patrick did say south of Mason-Dixon line, your counter is above.
Only Delaware was "north" (actually more EAST) of the Mason-Dixon line.

Of the other states you mention later Maryland and Kentucky sure as hell do not qualify as NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line.  Missouri Is a bit far to the west to be considered either north or south of the line.  BTW isn't Missouri the place they named the "Missouri compromise" after??


Geographically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 5:02:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

quote:

Original: tazzygirl

So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.



Tazz, Patrick did say south of Mason-Dixon line, your counter is above.
Only Delaware was "north" (actually more EAST) of the Mason-Dixon line.

Of the other states you mention later Maryland and Kentucky sure as hell do not qualify as NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line.  Missouri Is a bit far to the west to be considered either north or south of the line.  BTW isn't Missouri the place they named the "Missouri compromise" after??


Geographically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



Ok, lets back up and try this again.

Patrick made quite a slamming comment about the South. I asked him for his definition of said South... his reply...


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.


One state was not south of the MD line, Delaware. The other three, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri were south, but were part of the Union even though those states still allowed slavery. So, were those states southern? Not according to historians, but they are according to Patrick? You cant just rewrite history because you want too.

I also find it interesting that he has yet to offer the source for the poll he mentions. Possibly a good reason for that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pogo4pres)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 5:56:33 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
It doesn’t seem quite right to say that casting doubt over the details of O’Bama’s early life must necessarily infer racist beliefs. It could very well do but it could also suggest a conservative reaction to his left of centre Democrat values. Of course the civil rights movement is very much in living memory so I think it is well justified to suggest a fair amount of the hostility toward Obama is racially based but that isn’t really enough to broadly cast judgement on large swathes of a nation because the aforementioned political differences would be a factor too. It is a distinct possibility as these areas are overwhelmingly Republican. I’m not suggesting none of the negativity is driven by racism but rather that a substantial amount of the poll could easily be motivated by strong political difference. There is an all too human need to believe the worst in politicians that we strongly disagree with. It is also insufficient to suggest that those groups that fail to acknowledge his “class”, “decency”, “grace” etc. is indicative of a cultural pathology as those sorts of qualities can only be subjectively evaluated. Everyone will remember how favourably he was treated in the media. One of my favourites was the common comparison of his decent oratory skills with Cicero. That was verging on the comedic IMHO. Stuff like that would cause a strong backlash from those that disagree with him. After the above I have to apologise for posting this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVRxdPWV3RM but couldn’t resist.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 6:15:21 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
Could it be that people in the 'South' care more about the direction this Country is going in ? I think that Obama's policies have everything to do with this, and not his race.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 6:50:12 PM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
I was born & raised in rural upstate NY. Went to college in PA, worked in upstate NY, NYC, the bay area of northern California, and Washington DC (private sector) before relocating to eastern Tennessee. I traveled extensively to the lower 48 for the job, but it is my first experience with residency in a red state.

My first immediate observations of the area were

1) the nosey nature of the people here
2) the sweetness of the people here
3) the prevalence of the drug and pill problem among people of all ages (down here, granny gets busted as frequently as any other age)
4) the high percentage of young- and middle-age people listed in the obituary column in the newspaper.


Apparently around here, people reject government regulations, even if it kills them.   They tolerate dying young as working poor from no insurance rather than accept government structured heralthcare.

When I went to high school up north in the late 70s, early 80s, my parents paid about $2,000 a year (1980 dollars) in a dedicated school tax, which was a percentage based on the value of their house. This was on top of a state income tax and property taxes.  The school was well funded. Ample supply of school busses, so unless you lived within walking distance to the school, you rode the bus. Students were not permitted to commute to school via private automobile. Unless there was a family emergency or illness, there were few exceptions to that policy. One exception was that seniors were permitted parking passes and allowed to drive themselves (not their friends) to school only in the last half of their senior year and only if they kept their grades up. In four years of high school, I never had a reason to go to a funeral or group therapy session over the death of a high school peer. Things were well funded, highly structured, and tragic accidents simply did not happen. You could just tell that smart people ran the show up there.

Down here, there is no state income tax or dedicated school tax. School buses are a hit-or-miss proposition. Any new school buses are funded through a wheel tax, which is a $25 tax on automobile registrations. Most students commute to school via private automobile, either their parents drop them or the kids drive the family car to school themselves. Quite common for even 10th and 11th grade kids to drive themselves and their friends to school.  There is literally a 'rush hour' in front of the high schools that require police assistance for traffic control.  Down here, there is no annual vehicle inspection, so any death trap can roll legally on the roads. Main highway arteries are well engineered, county secondary roads are not (think of paved horse trails). Young-driver accidents that kill entire carloads of students on their way to school are quite common.

To me, I find it crazy that the people here hate government and regulations and taxes so much, they are willing to sacrifice their kids. Most of the parents of deceased kids (and the community) just sink into their religious beliefs, but fail to see that their tight wallet policies are partly responsible for their own kid's death.  The adults down here have no idea what its like to pay taxes like my parents paid. And then again, I never went to a classmate's funeral.

The biggest employer in town is a chemical plant that was built as an offshoot of a manufacturing facility headquartered up north. This was a raw materials division of the yankee outfit. The second largest employer is the regional health system (translation - government funded jobs). As the chemical plant opened operations in South America, average hourly wages there has gone down to the extent that the healthcare system is surpassing it for having the highest hourly wage in the region. The healthcare system is also growing here, not because the natives are taking better care of themselves, but rather because many Florida retirees are abandoning Florida and moving to north Georgia, western North Carolina, and eastern Tennessee. The demand for Medicare services is spiking locally.

Many of the manufacturing employers that relocate here have a predatory bent, sort of a 'last stop before India' thing, looking for a cheap workforce willing to die for their boss's right to cut corners and avoid regulations. What employer is willing to pass that up? Industrial accident numbers are rather high, but at least that pesky government isn't telling their employer what to do. Freedom, baby!

I find it odd that here, in the land of tobacco plantation slave owners, a socially, politically and educationally stagnant low wage workforce has practically enslaved themselves. Their false sense of freedom amounts to the 'right' to move from one low wage job to another.  And they seem not to mind. Its like the workers in China justifying their enslaved conditions by the job security from the endless supply of new ventures that show up because of the low wage standard.



(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:02:40 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
*just a general fast reply*

"All y'all" can see where I'm from by looking to the left, under my picture.  I'm just outside of DC, but I'm a (Northern) VA girl, but I am still Southern.  Not all Southern people are ignorant hicks.  Nor are all Southern people racist, sheet-wearers.  I, for one, was married to a "foreigner," have mixed babies, and for the past 7 years have been with a black man. 

Dayum...  I may need to re-think my whole Scarlet O'Hair-a signature line. 

< Message edited by Daddysredhead -- 10/26/2010 7:04:37 PM >


_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:51:34 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
That seems highly unlikely.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:52:47 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Really, typos are the big concern?  

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:54:48 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
For the love of God, I am not talking about all Southerners, but about cultural trends.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:55:51 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Well said.  All one needs to do is look at the amount of tire blowouts on the road to get an idea of the difference.

(in reply to EternalHoH)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:57:24 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Really, you've heard Cicero speak? 

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 7:59:07 PM   
cuckyman


Posts: 471
Joined: 3/25/2009
Status: offline
Spoken like an typical liberal know it all jerk...the arrogance of these stooges is nothing short of amazing...

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 8:08:29 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Really, you've heard Cicero speak? 


Lol I am sure you are aware that his writings survive, as does his great reputation which was built during an age when oratory and rhetoric was studied as an art as it was valued considerably more than it is today.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 10/26/2010 8:13:48 PM >

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 8:11:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Really, typos are the big concern?  


Guess the phrase... thats neither here nor there... escapes your knowledge base then.

I asked for the source of the poll you cited. Are you going to provide it?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 8:12:14 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
Meh. I honestly haven't noticed much of a difference between north and south concerning racism. It exists, but it doesn't dominate. White or black, for that matter. I can wander around an inner city ghetto without too much trouble in either place.

Though have you ever wandered into one of those Vietnamese 'coffee' shops? Oh my god, the looks I get. They aren't shy about marking their turf.

Now, between rural and metropolitan, there's more of a line. But even then you just can't predict what you'll see.



_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 8:14:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Well said.  All one needs to do is look at the amount of tire blowouts on the road to get an idea of the difference.


The difference in what? Communities? Counties? States?

Each state has their own rules, each county as well. Again, assumptions are dangerous. Its more dangerous to assume that each state is ran the same simply because of the accent.

Racism comes in many flavours.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 8:18:17 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

Spoken like an typical liberal know it all jerk...the arrogance of these stooges is nothing short of amazing...



To whom are you speaking? Or, are you just ranting because you love the sound of your own voice?

(in reply to cuckyman)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/27/2010 2:55:56 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline
I was born in Rochester,NY.You can't really get too much farther North than that,then you start heading into Canada.I currently live in Flordia.Which,you can't get any farther south than here.Trust me,Flordia is still the South,despite the misconception's.Northern Flordia is no dount,a good old boy Southern mentality.South Flordia,is where alot of the Northern's move to.Central Flordia is sort of in the middle.... I find this topic to be of interest.I have family that root's go from North all the way down through the South.I am a proud yankee.Honestly,I think it would have been better if the Civil War could have been avoided,but history is history..... I do understand the OP message but I don't think it's fair to group an entire region together..... Flordia did vote for Barack Obama in 2008.Granted,it was only 1 out of 3 state's in the south to vote for him,but still,people down here did vote for him.I have come across racism in the south and in the north.I see no difference there.In fact,I hate to say it,but I encountered more racism up North than I have down here in the South.Again,I know,I live in Flordia,yankee haven.In modern day time's,I would say the playing field has been leveled.....I will agree though,the North has been ahead of the south when it come's to social issue's.I am starting to see the hate garbage when it come's to gay people.I do wonder,is the south alway's trying to hate somebody?....I did find something interesting,in many southern state's,there are more registered Democrat's than there are Republican's.Yet,Republican have been basically in control of most of the south for ahile now.I wonder,why is that.... I realized alot of Southern's didn't care for Republican's for a long time because Abe Lincoln was the President at the time when the North defeated the South.The Repub's party was seen as a"Yankee" enemy for along time among southerner's..... Let's face fact's,slavery was legal in the North and the South.It did end alot sooner in the North than it did the South.The civil war may not have started because of slavery,but toward's the end of the war,slavery was the issue.... The old Jim Crow law's that followed afterward's for almost 100 year's in the South was a disgrace.Yes,the North has it's own hate law's,such as banning Interracial marriage,but nothing like what the South had.It took the Federal government a major effort to do what the Southern state's refused to do,which was end Jim Crow..... Now,in post 2000,I think the South has advanced alot.The South does deserve credit for trying to mend it's old way's..... I am not a Northern who view's people from the South as ignorant.I think that's biased and unfair to the many good Southerner's who do exsist.Time's have changed and so has the South.I've been through the deep South in recent time's and it's not as bad as many people make it out to be...... I still go back to upstate NY from time to time.That will alway's be my home,no matter where I go..... I know from traveling to different place's,everywhere has it's bad apple's and good apple's.I alway's prefer to be around the good spirited people.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/27/2010 3:22:48 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline
Funny thing about having come to the South from the Mid West than the Northeast, I got here just in time to see the country rednecks, the retirees, and the religious right somehow become one in the same politically. I am amazed at the gullibility of some but, the are "true believers" and devout in their thoughts on politics. The guy in the pick-up truck with the rebel flag mounted in the back is voting along the same lines as the retiree in the Cadillac. Pretty interesting times and although Patrick makes some prescient observations, I think it might defy history more than confirm it.

_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/27/2010 3:26:45 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline
One thing I do find interesting about the South is this.The Southern state's do say they want less Federal government out of their live's.Yet,yet something serious happen's like Katrina or the BP Oil Spill,these are the exact same people demanding the Federal government do something.The Federal Government hasn't done enough of this or enough of that.The Federal government should help in situation's like that.The point is,it's hard to have your cake and eat it too.If you want Federal government money for pet project's and to help in time's of meed,then don't try to dimiss the Federal government when you think they are no longer needed.Alot of people in Southern poor area's are on some form of Government help.Yet,you turn around and bite the hand that help's you.It's like that guy who say's"I don't want the Government touching my Medicare!"Come on,use some common sense on thing's like this.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094