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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 8:20:15 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

When I think of the General Welfare clause I think of things like Fire Depts, Police Depts, the Post Office, Libraries, Militias etc, very "Franklinesque" types of things which really do better the general welfare of The People.
It doesn't make me think of hospitals, doctors, insurance cos or drug cos.
And Obama's healthcare program is shit!
I like the single payer program like in Europe. It would cost us half of what we pay now!


Im not here, nor did i start this thread to argue over the Health Care Law. I have been quite vocal about how disappointed i am over that passage.

What i am here to discuss is the fact that so many believe Libraries are a cause for general welfare and health isnt.


Tazzy, in this country healthcare has always been an individual issue up until maybe 70 years ago. The way things are now an individual can no longer afford it with the skyrocketing costs.
Most companies didn't even offer medical benefits until the 1950's.
Most people got sick, had a few visits in their homes from the local "doc" and died in their homes just like they were born in their homes with a midwife! And when they died they were waked in their homes.
In 1910 90% of doctors didn't attend college or medical school, it was all "on-the-job-training."
Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor, millions of dollars in state of the art machinery etc.
Who can afford medical care on their own anymore?
I don't know how you could consider "healthcare" to be part of the "general welfare." Since when, 1960, 1970? I can't remember the govt or anyone making any grand pronouncements about it.
If we were to go onto a single payer system then I guess you could consider it part of the "general welfare" at that point but would there be any pronouncements that it was so at that point by the govt?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/4/2010 8:23:33 PM >


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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 8:27:33 PM   
Arpig


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Popeye is for single payer....who'd a thunk it, he finally says something sensible

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 8:32:00 PM   
tazzygirl


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Lets look at your example of Libraries for a moment being part of the "General Welfare" as you asserted in a previous post.

Carnegie, however, thought libraries and books should be available to everyone. Interestingly, he was attacked by both the right, which called him a Communist for wanting to use taxes for libraries, and the left, which viewed taxes as a drain on the working man. By 1920, the Carnegie estate had donated $50 million to erect 2,500 library buildings, including 1,700 in the U.S.--by far the most sustained and widespread philanthropic enterprise ever devoted to libraries. Carnegie's donations got libraries started in small towns, not just big cities, throughout America. Some communities refused Carnegie's money because it was tainted, but basically we can thank Carnegie for the modern U.S. public library system.

........

President Franklin Roosevelt issued a proclamation late in 1941 supporting libraries as "essential to the functioning of a democratic society" and "the great tools of scholarship, the great repositories of culture, and the great symbols of the freedom of the mind." After the war, the Library Services Act was passed in 1956, allowing federal funding for libraries.

.........

Around 85% of library funding comes from taxes--federal, state, and local. The rationale behind government involvement is that libraries serve the public good. State law determines the autonomy and taxing power of local public libraries. Typically the law sets a ceiling on taxes; higher levels require a referendum.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2236/how-did-public-libraries-get-started

So, libraries were thought to be a good idea dating back to Franklin, yet his libraries had a fee and only members could take out books. The Federal government didnt get involved until the 1950's. According to your previous post, Libraries have been thought of as part of the general welfare since 1956. Why is health care considered any different now?

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:17:44 PM   
popeye1250


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Tazzy, "The General Welfare" is a pretty vague term.
It (could) include a lot of things.
Before the 1950's healthcare was very limited in this country. In the 1800's if you had an absessed tooth you went down to the local barber and he yanked it.
Healthcare just wasn't an issue because there was very little of it to speak of.
In the future trips to the moon for a vacation could be considered part of the general welfare.


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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:22:06 PM   
tazzygirl


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Considering the state of health care in this country, and the fact that you wont be seen without insurance or money unless you go to an ER (where they are starting to turn away all but the most emergent of cases) its time we began thinking of health care as a General Welfare and stopped viewing it as a profit margin.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:31:03 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Considering the state of health care in this country, and the fact that you wont be seen without insurance or money unless you go to an ER (where they are starting to turn away all but the most emergent of cases) its time we began thinking of health care as a General Welfare and stopped viewing it as a profit margin.


Tazzy, I agree. But I don't think that'll happen unless we go single payer. And I don't think single payer will happen as long as so many people and corporations are making so much money from the present system.
Look at the lawyers like John what's his name who ran for president! He made hundreds of millions sueing doctors and insurance cos. Think they want to see single payer?

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:38:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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The HC Law, in my opinion, is our best effort to break the insurance companies backs. I want single payor. Hell, im all for socialized medicine if need be. But what we had before the HC Law was enacted wasnt working, will never work, and will only serve to make the rich richer and the poor dead.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:39:35 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor


Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year




http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:49:17 PM   
popeye1250


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http://dms.dartmouth.edu/admissions/financial_aid/

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:55:51 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The average tuition for the first year is $25,000. Additionally, there are fees for books, housing, meals, student fees, traveling, etc. Public Schools are about $10,000 if you’re an in state student. Out of state students can expect to pay well over $22,000 for a public medical school.


http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

quote:

The following covers the some of the required costs you can expect to encounter:

1) Costs of Applying to Medical School involve utilizing the American Medical College Application Service (AMCAS) to process applications. This service is extremely helpful and simple. You submit your information and application materials to them, and in return, they will send these applications to the Medical Schools that you specify. Considering the time and energy it takes to send applications to different medical schools, the costs are arguably reasonable. $160 for the first school and $30 for each additional school.

2) Medical School Costs vary from school to school, also considering different regions, and whether or not they are public or private. However, based on certain recent statistical reviews, state Medical School costs range from $24,000 – $44,000 a year for state residents and about $44,000 for out-of-state residents. At a private Medical School, tuition and fees typically run at about $41,000 (state residents) to $43,000 (out-of-state residents). The costs significantly add up. In 2008, the median debt was about $150,000 per Medical School student.

3) External Medical School Costs include room and board, books and supplies, etc. Room and board ranges too dramatically for accurate estimates to be presented, as they differ between the Medical Schools. Books and supplies costs are presently between $1,000 to $3,000 a year. In addition, health insurance throughout Medical School costs between $1,300 to $2,000.

As it is evident from the aforementioned information, Medical School costs can sometimes be more daunting than the Medical School course load itself. As an advisable solution, newly accepted students should consult their Medical School financial aid officer to plan out a financial plan specific to the student’s situation.


http://www.medicalschool.org/medical-school-costs.html

Medical students from the class of 2009 graduated with $156,456 in student loan debt on average according to the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC).



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 9:57:36 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor

Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year


http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm


Really? $10,000? What drugs are you on?

Maybe we should tell the folks at Harvard Univ, that according to your simple google search, they are charging to much at $45,050. Source

Or maybe the entire industry is wrong, and that you, are correct, thompsonx. Try this one. So maybe you should do a little more research on the topic....


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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:04:28 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

http://dms.dartmouth.edu/admissions/financial_aid/



This from the first line of your link.

"For the 2010-2011 academic year, tuition is $45,075."

This is a private med school and four years at 45k per year is still 120k less than your minimum of 300k to become a doctor. My link spoke of public med schools at 10K per year.
If you do not like the taste of boot leather then perhaps you should stop putting your feet in there.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:07:37 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor

Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year


http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm


Really? $10,000? What drugs are you on?

Maybe we should tell the folks at Harvard Univ, that according to your simple google search, they are charging to much at $45,050. Source

Or maybe the entire industry is wrong, and that you, are correct, thompsonx. Try this one. So maybe you should do a little more research on the topic....





Maybe you should read your own link

" Even if you attend a public four year state college or university you are likely to spend $40,000 on tuition for a four year degree. "

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:09:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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You still have it wrong.

Public Medical Schools * (78 schools reporting)

2009-2010

TUITION

Resident

Range 0 - 35,582

Median 22,800

Average 20,234

FEES

Resident

0 - 28,081

1,584

3,395

http://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report_median.cfm?year_of_study=2010

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:12:32 PM   
tazzygirl


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~FR

Now that many have proven how wrong thompson can be and still claim he is right, can we get back to the OP? Its incredible that the only thing he could find to complain about in this thread was the cost of educating a physician.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:17:08 PM   
DMFParadox


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From the point of view of your standard $50k per year working family, $145k might as well be $300k... I think this discussion of university fees is losing sight of the picture, here.

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:25:18 PM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

When I think of the General Welfare clause I think of things like Fire Depts, Police Depts, the Post Office, Libraries, Militias etc, very "Franklinesque" types of things which really do better the general welfare of The People.
It doesn't make me think of hospitals, doctors, insurance cos or drug cos.
And Obama's healthcare program is shit!
I like the single payer program like in Europe. It would cost us half of what we pay now!


You know, this raises an interesting question for me.

What if hospitals were run like libraries? What would that be like?


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bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:31:05 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor

Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

First, medical education in the US is subsidized, so the tuition, fees, and living expenses paid by students do not represent the whole cost.  Second, "medical education" includes some number of years of residency.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 11/4/2010 10:32:01 PM >

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:31:20 PM   
thompsonx


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Popeye says that it cost 300-500k to become a doctor in the u.s. I point out that it can be done for for much less.
You cite a link that represents about half of the med schools in the u.s. and that is your rebuttle. You average the 45k per year schools with those who charge nothing and claim that I am wrong in my statements.
Here is a link to all the med schools in the u.s. Please note that the fourth highest rated med school in the u.s. is free to residents and only 12K to non residents.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings

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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:37:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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One school and that is your basis? The average is 20,000. I never said college could not be had for free. I also happen to know that the American Association of Medical Colleges information is extremely accurate. We arent just speaking of tuition here, but fees insurance, housing, ect. And, facts are facts, these men and women do not have time to work. They take out loans to live while in school.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 40
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