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RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:44:09 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tazzy, "The General Welfare" is a pretty vague term.
It (could) include a lot of things.
Before the 1950's healthcare was very limited in this country. In the 1800's if you had an absessed tooth you went down to the local barber and he yanked it.
Healthcare just wasn't an issue because there was very little of it to speak of.
In the future trips to the moon for a vacation could be considered part of the general welfare.




the OP wasnt to bad of an interpretation considering it cane from wiki but this what it really means;



Constitution of Pennsylvania - September 28, 1776



WHEREAS all government ought to be instituted and supported for the security and protection of the community as such, and to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and the other blessings which the Author of existence has bestowed upon man; and whenever these great ends of government are not obtained, the people have a right, by common consent to change it, and take such measures as to them may appear necessary to promote their safety and happiness. AND WHEREAS the inhabitants of this commonwealth have in consideration of protection only, heretofore acknowledged allegiance to the king of Great Britain; and the said king has not only withdrawn that protection, but commenced, and still continues to carry on, with unabated vengeance, a most cruel and unjust war against them, employing therein, not only the troops of Great Britain, but foreign mercenaries, savages and slaves, for the avowed purpose of reducing them to a total and abject submission to the despotic domination of the British parliament, with many other acts of tyranny, (more fully set forth in the declaration of Congress) whereby all allegiance and fealty to the said king and his successors, are dissolved and at an end, and all power and authority derived from him ceased in these colonies. AND WHEREAS it is absolutely necessary for the welfare and safety of the inhabitants of said colonies, that they be henceforth free and independent States, and that just, permanent, and proper forms of government exist in every part of them, derived from and founded on the authority of the people only, agreeable to the directions of the honourable American Congress. We, the representatives of the freemen (note; citizens are not freemen) of Pennsylvania, in general convention met, for the express purpose of framing such a government, confessing the goodness of the great Governor of the universe (who alone knows to what degree of earthly happiness mankind mav attain, by perfecting the arts of government) in permitting the people of this State, by common consent, and without violence, deliberately to form for themselves (NOT! the legislatures do that without us), such just rules as they shall think best, for governing their future society, and being fully convinced, that it is our indispensable duty to establish such original principles of government, as will best promote the general happiness of the people of this State, and their posterity, and provide for future improvements, without partiality for, or prejudice against any particular class, sect, or denomination of men whatever, do, by virtue of the authority vested in use by our constituents, ordain, declare, and establish, the following Declaration of Rights and Frame of Government, to be the CONSTITUTION of this commonwealth, and to remain in force therein for ever, unaltered, except in such articles as shall hereafter on experience be found to require improvement, and which shall by the same authority of the people, fairly delegated as this frame of government directs, be amended or improved for the more effectual obtaining and securing the great end and design of all government, herein before mentioned.




all referenced to their protection  after the king ignored them.  not driving the economy into the ground to promote socialist crap like ohaha care.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:45:46 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		What does the consitution of PA have to do with the General Welfare clause?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:50:16 PM   
Real0ne


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you are joking right?

would you prefer I post the continental congress or th earticles of confederation which not quite as good explains the same thing or do you think that it meaning changed in a few months to ohaha care?

In other words "ORIGINAL" intent






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 11/4/2010 10:55:44 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 10:58:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

One school and that is your basis? The average is 20,000. I never said college could not be had for free. I also happen to know that the American Association of Medical Colleges information is extremely accurate. We arent just speaking of tuition here, but fees insurance, housing, ect. And, facts are facts, these men and women do not have time to work. They take out loans to live while in school.

Had you taken the time to read the link I provided you would have found five that were free and many under 10K lots more under 20K.
Popeye said it cost 300-500K. I point out he is wrong and that there are numerous med schools that are 10K or less. Yet you, in the face of overwhelming evidence want to pick fly shit out of pepper.
If you have a point please make it.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/4/2010 11:07:00 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor

Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year
http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

First, medical education in the US is subsidized, so the tuition, fees, and living expenses paid by students do not represent the whole cost.  Second, "medical education" includes some number of years of residency.



Med school is two years of academics and two years of ojt. This is what the student doctor pays tuition for. This is followed by two years of internship for which the doctor is paid followed by residency which is also paid.
The fact that med schools are subsidized is not relevant. The cost to the student is what I am disagreeing with popeye on.

(in reply to eihwaz)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 4:25:01 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		My point was made. Now, back to the original intent of this thread.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/5/2010 4:41:25 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 4:40:32 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


you are joking right?

would you prefer I post the continental congress or th earticles of confederation which not quite as good explains the same thing or do you think that it meaning changed in a few months to ohaha care?

In other words "ORIGINAL" intent




I dont believe original intent has anything to do with what we are talking about.

You always seem to get a hard on when discussing the Constitution as you feel it was originally intended. Hey, its your kink. I respect that.

But i want you to come forward in time and explain to me how, when we have SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Libraries and the like all funded by the government, and considered needed for the general welfare of the american people... and yet health care isnt?

I dont mean the HC Law... i mean health care.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/5/2010 4:42:28 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 4:50:28 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My point was made. Now, back to the original intent of this thread.



Your point: The average of 45K and 0 is 22.5K.
My point: Four years of med school can be had for 10 k or less not the 300-500k as popeye stated.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 4:50:46 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

But i want you to come forward in time and explain to me how, when we have SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Libraries and the link all funded by the government, and considered needed for the general welfare of the american people... and yet helath care isnt?


I was always under the impression that medicare and medicaid were developed to provide health care for those who needed it and could not afford it. They help in the general welfare of the elderly and the poor.


Note: this is not to imply that I think they are doing a good job with medicare or medicaid. I don't, and the thought that these same idiots may one day be running a system that covers everyone in the country as opposed to just the elderly and poor, scares the fuck out of me.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 4:58:14 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

But i want you to come forward in time and explain to me how, when we have SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Libraries and the link all funded by the government, and considered needed for the general welfare of the american people... and yet helath care isnt?


I was always under the impression that medicare and medicaid were developed to provide health care for those who needed it and could not afford it. They help in the general welfare of the elderly and the poor.


Note: this is not to imply that I think they are doing a good job with medicare or medicaid. I don't, and the thought that these same idiots may one day be running a system that covers everyone in the country as opposed to just the elderly and poor, scares the fuck out of me.




So if the current administration of medicare/medicade might be likened to a ford and the way you would administer it might be likened to a mercedes then you would rather walk because you cannot have a mercedes...would that be a fair characterazation of your position?



(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:07:56 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

But i want you to come forward in time and explain to me how, when we have SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Libraries and the link all funded by the government, and considered needed for the general welfare of the american people... and yet helath care isnt?


I was always under the impression that medicare and medicaid were developed to provide health care for those who needed it and could not afford it. They help in the general welfare of the elderly and the poor.


Note: this is not to imply that I think they are doing a good job with medicare or medicaid. I don't, and the thought that these same idiots may one day be running a system that covers everyone in the country as opposed to just the elderly and poor, scares the fuck out of me.




So if the current administration of medicare/medicade might be likened to a ford and the way you would administer it might be likened to a mercedes then you would rather walk because you cannot have a mercedes...would that be a fair characterazation of your position?





No, if you are going to compare them to ford then it would be more like this.

Ford is running plants all over the country. The plants are being mismanaged and the company is losing money right and left. Now Ford wants to triple the amount of plants it is responsible for, before finding out why the current plants keep losing money.

So, if you were looking into a company that was losing money and they asked you to give them more money so they can open more shops, would you give them the money? Do you honestly think they could manage the additional stores, when the ones they already have are going under?

Or perhaps you don't have a problem with the millions of dollars being lost to medicare and medicaid fraud?


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:19:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:


No, if you are going to compare them to ford then it would be more like this.

Ford is running plants all over the country. The plants are being mismanaged and the company is losing money right and left.

Now Ford wants to triple the amount of plants it is responsible for, before finding out why the current plants keep losing money.

So, if you were looking into a company that was losing money and they asked you to give them more money so they can open more shops, would you give them the money? Do you honestly think they could manage the additional stores, when the ones they already have are going under?

Or perhaps you don't have a problem with the millions of dollars being lost to medicare and medicaid fraud?




Ford is not loosing money.
Medicare/medicade is funded at just under 800 billion dollars.
What fractional portion of 1% does the fraud amount to?
My question was and is do you wish to scrap medicade/medicare because there is some fraud?

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:26:27 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		[quote]ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Now it costs $300-$500k to become a doctor

Once again you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Med school is $10,000 per year
http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

First, medical education in the US is subsidized, so the tuition, fees, and living expenses paid by students do not represent the whole cost.  Second, "medical education" includes some number of years of residency.



Med school is two years of academics and two years of ojt. This is what the student doctor pays tuition for. This is followed by two years of internship for which the doctor is paid followed by residency which is also paid.
The fact that med schools are subsidized is not relevant. The cost to the student is what I am disagreeing with popeye on.


Its not the money that is the issue it is the AMA limiting the amount of opening placements in Medical Schools. There are plenty of others qualified to be Doctors. It is only a function of the AMA being allowed to limit the amount of doctors that keeps Doctors compensation so high and their costs so extreme.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:28:16 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:


No, if you are going to compare them to ford then it would be more like this.

Ford is running plants all over the country. The plants are being mismanaged and the company is losing money right and left.

Now Ford wants to triple the amount of plants it is responsible for, before finding out why the current plants keep losing money.

So, if you were looking into a company that was losing money and they asked you to give them more money so they can open more shops, would you give them the money? Do you honestly think they could manage the additional stores, when the ones they already have are going under?

Or perhaps you don't have a problem with the millions of dollars being lost to medicare and medicaid fraud?




Ford is not loosing money.
Medicare/medicade is funded at just under 800 billion dollars.
What fractional portion of 1% does the fraud amount to?
My question was and is do you wish to scrap medicade/medicare because there is some fraud?


I didn't say ford was losing money. I was using a "what if" scenario to explain a point.

According to this article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml  Medicare fraud - estimated now to total about $60 billion a year - has become one of, if not the most profitable, crimes in America. Now you can claim that the amount is insignificant, but I don't see it that way.

That said, no I don't think we should scrap the programs, but it would be nice to see them try and fix them before they add the rest of the country to the mix.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:30:42 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		I get it but how do you go about fixing the programs when people scream and scream for smaller government. If you want to fix them then you will need more people to supervise the system. That means more people. I agree if you lessen fraud you can pay for those extra workers but just try explaining that one to willbur

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:32:09 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Its not the money that is the issue it is the AMA limiting the amount of opening placements in Medical Schools. There are plenty of others qualified to be Doctors. It is only a function of the AMA being allowed to limit the amount of doctors that keeps Doctors compensation so high and their costs so extreme.


"No bet to me"

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 5:57:10 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I get it but how do you go about fixing the programs when people scream and scream for smaller government. If you want to fix them then you will need more people to supervise the system. That means more people. I agree if you lessen fraud you can pay for those extra workers but just try explaining that one to willbur


That's a good question. I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. I can however caution you against wasting time trying to convince some people of anything. It's just not going to happen.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 6:00:15 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Good advice. Think I will take it?

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 6:24:28 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I get it but how do you go about fixing the programs when people scream and scream for smaller government. If you want to fix them then you will need more people to supervise the system. That means more people. I agree if you lessen fraud you can pay for those extra workers but just try explaining that one to willbur


That's a good question. I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. I can however caution you against wasting time trying to convince some people of anything. It's just not going to happen.



some but NOT all.

I was just talking with a kid in the store about the CRIS fraud and to my surprise he said they were being taught about the basic monetary system as it :really" is in college.  I expect there will be changes for the better if this country survives that long.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The "General Welfare" clause - 11/5/2010 6:30:35 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:


No, if you are going to compare them to ford then it would be more like this.

Ford is running plants all over the country. The plants are being mismanaged and the company is losing money right and left.

Now Ford wants to triple the amount of plants it is responsible for, before finding out why the current plants keep losing money.

So, if you were looking into a company that was losing money and they asked you to give them more money so they can open more shops, would you give them the money? Do you honestly think they could manage the additional stores, when the ones they already have are going under?

Or perhaps you don't have a problem with the millions of dollars being lost to medicare and medicaid fraud?




Ford is not loosing money.
Medicare/medicade is funded at just under 800 billion dollars.
What fractional portion of 1% does the fraud amount to?
My question was and is do you wish to scrap medicade/medicare because there is some fraud?


yes scrap it all.
but not before scrapping the government sanctioned corporations that are attached to the regulations that create the requirements and the something for nothing bone head attitude of this insurance laden society.
insuance by tax always costs 2wice to many times more than direct invoice but getting rid of one without getting rid of the controlling regulations which is how things are done will only shift it to another label as they have and continue to do.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 60
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