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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 7:52:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Now, if you want to argue that state and local governments are and have been ballooning for the past three decades, get behind me and welcome to the party finally.



I am arguing that, Muse, but we aren't heading for the same party. I'm up the hall looking at the philosophy of goverance, not the jurisdiction. Just listen for the angry metal.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 8:07:40 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Have fun storming the castle.

But it's not the same as balancing a budget.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 8:37:14 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		And good ideas for getting the damn economy moving would be a step in the right direction to balancing that budget. Unfortunately, I think this is a bad one.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 8:39:49 PM   
cloudboy


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Soros wrote a piece for the NYR of Books in which he stated stimulus money might better be spent on business and capital development in the US, the need for which has increased as businesses horde cash instead of investing it. Such investment might lead to better economic development than trying to shore up sagging US demand through traditional government spending.

Overall, the US government seems stuck and corrupt, and most eyeballs, like Heretic's, are focused on stupid shit instead of the real areas that need to be reformed and changed.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 8:39:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Have fun storming the castle.




Everytime, Muse. Every single time. What else are they good for?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 8:49:01 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'm looking at the role government takes in the lives of individuals, Clouds. What have you got?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 11:38:07 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Hm. I have to wonder if some big, splashy New-Deal type public-works projects would get people on their feet and cheering. It's been a while since we did something like that, as a country.

I think we should institute a new American tradition. Every generation needs to do a kind of senior class project, big and flashy, to hand off to the next generation.

Stuff like this, though? Government buying employment for people?? Far too subject to exploitation. From employees, employers, government oversight and... third parties. You'd have to do so many doublechecks that you'd give yourself whiplash. And a huge case of civic bloat.


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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/12/2010 11:43:42 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Hm. As a temporary measure, though, and with a good crew running the show... something like this could do a lot of good. A lot of good.

I don't know. I'd say, since it's already funded, we watch the pilot programs along these lines very closely, and see how they perform, and what kinds of effects they have. I like the small, local-level type programs like this, because plenty of people are striving for opportunities that they just can't quite reach by themselves.

But on a large scale, and an extended time frame, the idea fills me with hives. so much potential for abuse...


< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 11/12/2010 11:49:14 PM >

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bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/13/2010 7:55:31 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Soros wrote a piece for the NYR of Books in which he stated stimulus money might better be spent on business and capital development in the US, the need for which has increased as businesses horde cash instead of investing it. Such investment might lead to better economic development than trying to shore up sagging US demand through traditional government spending.



George Soros? LMAO.

1. If thats what he said, its self contradictory. Companies are hording cash instead of investing it because of the uncertainty in taxes and further encroachment by the government. Ie they arent sure it will be profitable. So Soros wants to take individuals' money, give it to those businesses that already have concerns over its profitability, and let them invest it.

2. If hes so fucking concerned about the US economy then stop throwing billions at the people bent on destroying it.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/13/2010 8:24:59 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Every time my Fed taxes went down, my state and local jumped more, because they had to do things previously handled by the Feds."

I would think the more local influence might be a good thing. While all governments are more fucking trouble than they're worth, the feds could shut down today and we could be fifty separate countries and I think we would be better off.

Let's see fucking Rhode Island attack Iraq, or pump up the cold war like those assholes did.

T

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/13/2010 8:26:56 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		A lot of people like to think (and rant) that way.

What they keep ignoring is that it's more expensive.

It's the economy, remember?

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/13/2010 8:27:19 AM >

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/13/2010 8:58:52 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"If hes so fucking concerned about the US economy then stop throwing billions at the people bent on destroying it. "

You know you're alright, no matter what they say........lol

Illustrates a simple fact, anyone who gets rich, at money came from somewhere. How many guesses do you want as to where ? Soros made that loot shuffling papers. Anyone who makes it without doing something useful is taking from others.

T

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/14/2010 11:22:03 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Bad leadership, greed and corruption destroys countries. President Obama looks pretty much the same compared to G. W. Bush. The question is if they are part of the conspiracy to destroy the country, or really stupid and do not understand the problems at all?  Even Donald Trump points to the obvious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbUDfIzqpwU&feature=channel

How can the monetary stimulus work under the current structure? It does not. How many trillions more is needed to prove it to top economy policymakers?

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/14/2010 11:40:19 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Bad leadership, greed and corruption destroys countries. President Obama looks pretty much the same compared to G. W. Bush. The question is if they are part of the conspiracy to destroy the country, or really stupid and do not understand the problems at all?  Even Donald Trump points to the obvious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbUDfIzqpwU&feature=channel

How can the monetary stimulus work under the current structure? It does not. How many trillions more is needed to prove it to top economy policymakers?



Would this be the same Donald Trump who was forced to file bankruptcy with two of his companies?

What a sterling example!

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/14/2010 3:44:46 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		What I'm scared about is that I may actually be somewhat in agreement with Wilbur.

I haven't dug out the details of this program and I can tell you that in the sciences, the stimulus money has largely been well spent- people bought equipment that they couldn't afford before and generally it's getting used. Some additional research was funded- also a good thing in my book since we haven't been spending enough on basic R + D. (Military R + D is not the same- and Homeland Security R + D is a sick joke.)

But a big chunk of the reason that our economy is faltering is that Uncle Sam has turned into a Walmart shopper. He's been buying cheap, off the shelf goods, too often made in China that does nothing for our economy. So spending stimulus money stringing more efficient transmission lines? Better roads, high speed rail, more efficient train braking systems etc.... Great idea! Spending money on service businesses that really don't have products that generate additional jobs... lousy idea. Not all jobs are created equal. If you set up a manufacturing plant- there are a whole host of other services that are required that a functioning business will help build ranging from construction to pizza delivery. But those jobs pay $50k/yr. plus. Creating lots of service jobs shows the flaws in the stimulus program that Krugman has been pointing out- you can't do stimulus on the cheap- it's a waste of money. Once the stimulus ends, so will the service jobs. Manufacturing jobs however, can keep going. Uncle Sam needs to prime the business pump- and that's not service jobs. And for advanced goods where performance matters more than bang/buck (which is often the Walmart solution)- Uncle Sam used to be a good customer. He isn't anymore, and we're all suffering because of it.

Sam

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/14/2010 4:23:04 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		One sector of the economy that putting money into that would help the economy, people, workers, the environment and a few other things would be to build three or four brandnew refineries on each coast with double the capacity that we have today.
We'll need them in the future and they'd replace the old, dangerous, and inefficient refineries that we depend on now.
On the east coast you could put one in Maine with it's deep water harbors, one in Maryland or maybe New Jersy or Virginia and one in Georgia.
And you don't have to have them "right on the coast" either, just lay pipelines 10,15, 20 miles inland from the ships to the refinery.
They would take anywhere from 3-6 years to build and create tens of thousands of jobs.
The govt could lease them out to the oil cos. everytime one of their antiquated refineries blew up and they shut it down.
The new ones could be designed to have have enough plant and equipment for ten or 20 differant oil companies to do their own refining operations.
And after they were amortized they'd be generating revenue that could be used to pay down the debt. And, they could cut the gasoline tax.
This is something that is sorely needed, it seems that every three or four months there's an explosion in some refinery somewhere.
I really don't like paying taxes on gasoline! I doubt anyone in here does.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/15/2010 6:25:12 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry Popeye, but I don't agree.

1) We've passed peak oil consumption here in the US, and we're going to be looking at declining oil needs in the future.
2) Chemical firms are rapidly transitioning away from oil feedstocks due to price volatility and the push for green processes.
3) Oil companies get far too much governmental support. While you may get aggravated about gas taxes -I'm not crazy about them because they're regressive- we spend lots more through income tax to support a military to keep oil supplies safe. If we're off oil, then our military budget can be cut drastically. This is not to mention the sweetheart leasing and royalty deals these companies already enjoy.

In terms of peak oil consumption- battery technology will probably arrive in the next 5 years. People who already own electric cars are happy with them and charging at night in the garage is not proving to be a hardship- and surprisingly- the grid can probably accommodate the extra load without too much problem. Also in 5 years- expect there to be a lot of choice in EVs. In short- the days of internal combustion for automotive transport are numbered- the writings on the wall. We won't need new refineries, and we'll be shuttering lots of corner gas stations.

Sam

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/15/2010 7:20:26 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

This is hardly a new concept, and it has proven itself before.

Works Progress Administration

By March, 1936, the WPA rolls had reached a total of more than 3,400,000 persons; after initial cuts in June 1939, it averaged 2,300,000 monthly; and by June 30, 1943, when it was officially terminated, the WPA had employed more than 8,500,000 different persons on 1,410,000 individual projects, and had spent about $11 billion.

During its 8-year history, the WPA built 651,087 miles of highways, roads, and streets; and constructed, repaired, or improved 124,031 bridges, 125,110 public buildings, 8,192 parks, and 853 airport landing fields.





That was in 1939 and in 1939 a huge percentage of available work was in industries and for low productive workers. In this day and age, those percentages are much lower, America is now dominated by corporate/public sector workers and so you can't even start to use that sort of history as a comparison of how it would work today.

The Dutch government has already implemented a subsidized employment programme and it hasn't been as successful as they first thought.
They found that although they had a marginal increase in employment, regular employment has been crowded out and this has led to an overall fall in output.
Implementing such a programme is hugely expensive which means individual expenditure will go up.

As per usual, our rabbit is following your rabbit down the rabbit hole.


< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/15/2010 7:45:21 AM >

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/15/2010 7:25:48 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

corporate/public sector workers


The corporate and public sectors are two separate entities, not a single unit.

Yes, corporations can be publicly held, but that's not at all what the pubic sector is--that's the private sector.

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RE: The Stimulus At Work - 11/15/2010 7:42:53 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		sorry my bad

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Profile   Post #: 40
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