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Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 12:30:10 PM

AislynLass

Posts: 56
Joined: 7/5/2009
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I understand the concept of TPE, but there was an idea expressed that once a woman becomes a slave, her choices are no longer her own because she is a slave.

As a consensual slave in our society, I believe that a slave makes choices every time he or she chooses to obey what his or her Master says….simply because he or she has the ABILITY to do so. This is the difference between a consensual slave and a non-consensual slave. The law and society supports your ability to make that choice. So even as a slave, you have self-responsibility for the choices (i.e. obeying your Master) that you make.

Now the choice may ultimately come down to either obeying or choosing to leave the relationship, but that is a choice in a consensual Master/slave relationship.

Aislyn

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

Post #: 1

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 12:32:39 PM

littlewonder

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When I agreed and made the choice to become Master's slave I made the choice to obey no matter what because I trust his decisions and actions. My only choice left is to stay or leave.

So yes I make a choice each time with him....to obey or leave.

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 2

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 12:45:10 PM

AislynLass

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Joined: 7/5/2009
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Thank you, littlewonder. That is exactly my point, and what you said emphasizes how important it is to consider a man's character when making that choice to submit to that level. It is vital to be able to trust in his decisions and actions as you stated. It may be a very fine point, but it irks me a little when I hear statements that seem to suggest that once someone submits that they no longer have self-responsibility for that choice.

Aislyn

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 3

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 12:51:09 PM

DarkSteven

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Actually, I believe that most of the time, the relationship starts off D/s and transitions to M/s.

Jeff's sig line is appropriate here:
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 4

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 12:53:44 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Funny, there were many times i was a disobedient slave. I didn't make a choice everytime he ordered something whether i obeyed or left, i made a choice whether to obey or disobey. Our relationship wasn't concensual slavery, our relationship simply was Master/slave. It was based on his mastery of me and my reaction to him. And despite all of the OMG notion many people will have to this -- no, i didn't have the ability to JUST LEAVE. His hold on me was way to strong for that due to his mastery. I was able to leave when his mastery no longer held me to him.

People love to throw around consent and non-consent, but most people don't have a clue what each of those really means. Was i responsible for my choices, yeah in terms of whether or not i obeyed or disobeyed. I didn't need to worry about anything else. And before you start going off in the direction of extremes -- just don't because that is stupid. Why is it stupid, because its not something a MAJORITY of men do when they own slaves, NOT EVEN when slavery was a legality concept. That is always thrown out in these types of threads and its silly.

Unlike many people, he wasn't afraid of my disobedience and i didn't show him how "slave" i was by how obedient i was to him. I reacted to his mastery of me. Some days i was obedient, some days i wasn't. He dealt with each of those concepts as he chose.

i would never be in a relationship wherein the guy needed the concept of obey or leave. Disobedience while it has its consequences wasn't the ultimate decision-maker of whether or not our relationship was stable. His mastery of me was. That left the choice of the relationship in his hands, where i feel it belongs. i don't do ultimatums and to me the obey of leave concept if a ultimatum which i have never understood. To me, a Man should be capable of maintaining the M/s relationship even when the slave is disobedient instead of needing the leave concept as a tool to keep her obeying.

I also don't worry based on my experience of M/s about consensuality. The relationship happens due to it being natural between he and i, its not a contract as many have, its not a if this than that, its not about the threat of you obey or you leave. It simply about he and i. Is it a consensual concept, on some parts no, because it is based on his HOLD over me due to his mastery of me, and in that mastery he does in fact take some if not all of my autonomy.

Many people this scares, but for me personally, the idea that my relationship would be based upon my obedience to him (though as it was his expectations, i would indeed strive to be obedient) would give me way to much power over him and i would definitely use it to maniupulate the situation.

Some women like maintaining that little bit of control knowing they have the ultimate say. That isn't it for me or for women like me. I find security in his mastery, and i find security in his controling my autonomy. i like knowing our relationship is based upon a value system in that my value needs to stay higher than the cost of keeping me. And his mastery held me by his determination to do so. I liked being held by him. I also like knowing my behavior doesn't control his. To me, on many levels, the idea of obey or leave does in fact control his behavior because he has been put in a position wherein he MUST act. There were many times my Master didn't act at all when i was disobedient, there were times when he determined i would face the consequences of HIS choosing for my disobedience, and there were times when he took my disobedience as an indication i needed him. In the end, when his mastery ends, the relationship is no longer M/s and her autonomy is returned to her and she makes her decisions.

So while so many people are caught up in consensuality, to me there is WAY too much focus on it and it seems to have distorted the very nature of M/s in its most basic concept. The man holding the woman based on HIS ability, not her choice. Is there a consensuality -- maybe -- or maybe its just a natural reaction and existance for two people. Sometimes when i read these boards, people seem to make M/s so complicated with all the consensuality and this and that and obey or leave. I would be exhausted trying to keep it all straight.

I am all for the simplicity -- Man wants a woman, man masters a woman, and claims the woman for his own. If its a natural concept she will react to him and exist as he determines for her. If its not a natural concept, she won't and both move on to find another.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/14/2010 1:00:11 PM >

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(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 5

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 1:14:07 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

So while so many people are caught up in consensuality, to me there is WAY too much focus on it and it seems to have distorted the very nature of M/s in its most basic concept. The man holding the woman based on HIS ability, not her choice. Is there a consensuality -- maybe -- or maybe its just a natural reaction and existance for two people. Sometimes when i read these boards, people seem to make M/s so complicated with all the consensuality and this and that and obey or leave. I would be exhausted trying to keep it all straight.

I am all for the simplicity -- Man wants a woman, man masters a woman, and claims the woman for his own. If its a natural concept she will react to him and exist as he determines for her. If its not a natural concept, she won't and both move on to find another.

angel

i agree with this entire post but most especially these last two paragraphs. the obsession with the "consent" issue in this lifestyle is mind boggling to me...in 10 years i can't recall my Master and i ever having a single discussion on the subject. there is no need...i am his property, for as long as he wishes to maintain me as such...the end.

so like angel i do not understand the concept of "obey or leave." mind you, obedience is critical to me...but that is because i am submissive-natured, not because i am a slave. to fail to obey is to go against my own nature and leave me in a state of extreme anxiety. however whether i obey or not, i am his slave. i cannot end my slavery to him by making a choice to be disobedient...i can only cause him great disappointment and anger, and myself a lot of grief. but at the end of it, i will still be his slave because it is not about choice or obedience or whatever, it is about ownership (His total authority and control).

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 6

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 1:25:43 PM

AislynLass

Posts: 56
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline

In our society, one human being cannot legally "own" another human being. This is where consent is important with respect to the concept of ownership in the relationship dynamic...and the consent is both on the part of the Master as well as the slave. You expressed this actually where you said that you are his property, for as long as he wishes to maintain you as such. You consent, or make the choice to be his property, as he consents and chooses to accept you as his property.

My point in my original post is that as submissives and slaves that we maintain self-responsibility for the relationship choices we make.

Aislyn

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 7

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 1:42:07 PM

AislynLass

Posts: 56
Joined: 7/5/2009
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Barelynangel, perhaps it is a question of semantics, but I don't think we are disagreeing as much as we agree. Where you said, "Was i responsible for my choices, yeah in terms of whether or not i obeyed or disobeyed" is in line with the point I was making regarding self-responsibility.

I do get the point you made about the man holding the woman being based on His ability. However, as we do not live in a society where this ability is based on her not having a choice....it is her choice to accept his mastery of her. And yes, if she is indeed mastered, then it may feel to her that she has no other choice but to react to him and exist as he determines for her.

I disagree regarding the woman having the ultimate say. Both parties to the relationship have that say. The man may choose to withdraw his mastery of her....he may choose to release her and not wish her to be his property any longer.

Aislyn

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 8

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 3:32:11 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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Maybe you would like to research Internal Enslavement, and the process that happens. At a certain point, there really is no longer a conscious choice being made by the slave.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 9

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 3:37:31 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I disagree. I think if he made a really horrible command, like having her minor join them or murdering her father for the inheritance, she would find the ability to withdraw consent really quickly.

But of course I'm not a good slave. I can and do say no and disobey. However since this relationship isn't dependent on obedience but in striving toward emotional transparency it really doesn't matter.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 10

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 3:43:02 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Pretty extreme example, don't you think? This process used in the past, has actually not had the result you suggest. See my sig line.

I have emotional transparency in my relationship as well. I offered an alternative, and you seem to get defensive about it. Why is that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I disagree. I think if he made a really horrible command, like having her minor join them or murdering her father for the inheritance, she would find the ability to withdraw consent really quickly.

But of course I'm not a good slave. I can and do say no and disobey. However since this relationship isn't dependent on obedience but in striving toward emotional transparency it really doesn't matter.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 11

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 4:10:31 PM

CaringandReal

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Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass
As a consensual slave in our society, I believe that a slave makes choices every time he or she chooses to obey what his or her Master says….simply because he or she has the ABILITY to do so. This is the difference between a consensual slave and a non-consensual slave.

There's also consensual non-consensuality, which is where you consent to be owned once--and then never again do you make another choice. (I mean of course you can still choose to disobey an order, but you cannot choose or expect to escape the consequences of disobedience, which are, in realationships that are serious about control, usually quite severe.) This comes very close to slavery, particularly if you don't--as I didn't--have the "leave the relationship" option that some dominants grant their submissives. It worked out very well for both of us, for long years, until his death.

I call what you are describing above a submissive's situation. It's a long way from slavery, at least as I've experienced slavery.

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(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 12

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/14/2010 4:13:07 PM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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Heh... assuming of course you buy into the whole choice & consent thing. I prefer to rely on dominance and submission. Whether or not you understand A concept of TPE, you do not understand the version of it which happens in my marriage. Carol has no obligation to take care of herself. Such an obligation would require her to be checking my work which would presumably mean she might decide not to obey. Obviously, our whole relationship could go belly up, but that's a different situation than what we live in now. NOW, it is MY job to take care of Carol. It is her job to obey... whether or not she thinks that obeying constitutes taking good care of her.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 13

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 8:49:11 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Defensive no, simply pointing out your error. If your statement can be proved false, then it is not categorically true as you assert.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 14

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 9:15:39 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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Like others have said here, "consent" "non consent" "consensual non consent" - whatever the terms of the day may be, my owner and I have never talked about them and I'm not hung up on them.

My responsibility lies in deciding to give myself to him and ensuring he was the kind of man I could trust with my life and being. From there, he makes the decisions and I obey them. This is not to say these decisions come without talking or without him knowing what the results or risks might be.

Quite simply, we spent a lot of time getting to know each other, so we would both be sure I wanted his ownership and he wanted the responsibility of owning me. I submit to his will because it's what I do naturally without thinking about it. There isn't a decision of what I'm going to submit to, and why would I even consider what may or may not cause me to leave if things are going so smoothly? When things get bumpy, we fix it.

You see, we both want a happy, thriving, healthy relationship in which he is the ultimate authority. So that's what our focus is. When our focus is on that, concepts like "Obey or leave," or, "What if he wants me to murder my cat?" are too foreign to even consider, and pretty ridiculous to us.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 15

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 9:54:53 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

In our society, one human being cannot legally "own" another human being. This is where consent is important with respect to the concept of ownership in the relationship dynamic...and the consent is both on the part of the Master as well as the slave. You expressed this actually where you said that you are his property, for as long as he wishes to maintain you as such. You consent, or make the choice to be his property, as he consents and chooses to accept you as his property.

My point in my original post is that as submissives and slaves that we maintain self-responsibility for the relationship choices we make.

Aislyn

color me slow, but i'm not getting the connection between your last point above, and the issue of consent. i agree that even as a slave i must accept some responsibility for the choices i make or have made. i recognize the fact that i chose this way of life, that i chose to belong to this man. however, i do not continue to choose to be his...that was not only a one time choice, but a one time thought. if i were to wake up tomorrow and decide for some insane reason i did not wish to be his any longer, it would be pretty irrelevant, as he is the one with that power, not me.

believe it or not, the law of the land is not this almighty powerful thing which rules our everyday lives. amazingly...and you might wanna sit down for this one...even though it is TOTALLY against the law, people still actually commit MURDER. like, everyday!! omg! (sorry for the sarcasm, but you get my point)

yes, the law provides sometimes nasty consequences to such actions...assuming the act is investigated as a murder to begin with (as opposed to a suicide, accident, etc.)...and assuming the right person/people are caught...and assuming they are prosecuted...and assuming they are then convicted, to the fullest extent of the law.

and i didn't intend to go off on a murder tangent, but my point is simply that the illegality of slavery really doesn't mean a hill of beans to those of us who not only understand and accept consensual slavery to be a final choice, but who also happen to belong to Masters who are serious about their property.

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 16

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 9:56:24 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

NOW, it is MY job to take care of Carol. It is her job to obey... whether or not she thinks that obeying constitutes taking good care of her.

Daddy would say the same thing. caring for self, or even worrying about such, is not a slave's responsibility in this house.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 17

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 10:01:47 AM

Arpig

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Of course a slave has a choice, even real honest-to-goodness non-consensual slaves have a choice. Think Spartacus

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Post #: 18

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 12:31:19 PM

dreamerdreaming

Posts: 2839
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Of course a slave has a choice, even real honest-to-goodness non-consensual slaves have a choice. Think Spartacus

This!

A pattern of disobedience over time from my slave wouldn't work for me. So its up to my prospective slave and I, to make sure our needs, desires, goals, temperaments, etc. match up well.

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(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 19

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/15/2010 12:39:25 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Of course a slave has a choice, even real honest-to-goodness non-consensual slaves have a choice. Think Spartacus

True in one sense. But in another sense it's not so clear-cut. So at what point does a theoretical choice become unreal because it just isn't actionable. For instance, if we assume for a moment that Carol cannot even envision the idea of leaving me (true enough right now), then is it really reasonable to say that she has that choice? It's worth noting that Spartacus was a dominant personality. Carol is not. Strongly submissive personalities have their choices curtailed when in the presence of strongly dominant ones.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 20

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