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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 7:41:16 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I, too, tend to focus on positive possibilities.  Keeping my focus positive, however, does not mean there are no negative possibilities which exist.  It means I am aware of their existence while focusing and planning on the best outcome.  Closing my curtains so I can't see the clouds does not mean it's not cloudy out. It means I am aware of the clouds but I'm not allowing them into my current existence.


Greetings NuevaVida,

Awareness doesn't mean one ratifies or closes the curtains. As I previously stated the truth is etched in the consciousness and can easily be conjured when necessary. I'm aware of many things but I don't fix my thoughts or invest attention in probabilities that have no bearing on today's reality. And what I mean by that is "this" moment. The here and now.

quote:

Regarding my autonomy, I agree that as his slave, he holds my autonomy.  However, because of my own past experiences, I have learned that I am capable of taking it back.  I do not plan to take it back, nor do I hold that in my pocket as some sort of trump card.  I simply know it is a capability that I possess, even in the most dire of times when I did not think I had it.  One can not un-know something.  One can not pretend a capability does not exist.  It's simply there - not as a threat, not as a looming dark cloud - but simply as a piece of who I am.


I believe there's a marked difference in what one knows and what the individual chooses to place at the forefront of their thoughts. Where we differ is in emphasizing what is true. If it is such there's little need to say or remind myself of its existence. It simply is. However, there comes a point when one can move beyond those things (which can be limitations in some instances) and allow new truths to come into play.

quote:

We differ in that I do not lay down my old self to take on the new.  He took me on as "me," and that is what he wants.  There is no obliterating the past.  It happened. It changed me.  It equipped me with wisdom I did not previously have.  I simply handed over who I am, into his authority, ownership and care.  And now together we evolve.


It is impossible to have the old when a new situation has come into being. You've introduced a different element that by its presence will alter the subject in some capacity. It isn't the fact that he has taken me on but the understanding that our union necessitates a different way of relating that will call upon behaviors that were in existence, implement others, and reshape my person overall. Our pairing creates a collective actualization and the obliteration is beneficial for both parties. The 'me' continually evolves because the wheel of life never stops turning. The results of that process bear witness to his influence. Change the element and I'm subject to a different influence. Nonetheless the old has been born anew in some capacity.

quote:

While I completely agree with you about continually reference to the past being risky, I am in a different situation than you speak of, as there is no paring down in my slavery.  If anything, it's quite the opposite for me - an abundance of extensions to who I am at the core.  I agree with you about the safety nets that people use to offset fear, pain, etc., and I believe it's important for one to work such things out prior to handing oneself over to someone.  Only then can you freely deliver yourself into another's hands.


Abundance doesn't suggest that the individual hasn't sacrificed or released behaviors that are no longer conducive to their lifestyle or the person they've become. At some point we begin to recognize that something has outlived its usefulness and its set aside in deference for something more applicable to our current situation/self. Emptying needn't be seen from a negative perspective. In fact, it is merely a different manifestation of a path one can take as Master and slave. Our verbiage may differ and so may the ultimate goal, but I'm certain there are more common denominators than differences.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 7:52:48 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

At some point we all have to make a judgment call about people within our circle.  This decision isn't the same as judging them as people.  That decision is based on whether or not that person is healthy and functional within our own lives and reality.


Greetings lovingpet,

Sometimes we make good choices and others not so good. The results of such take into account the information or resources we had at the time the decision was made. When the situation alters we're presented with another opportunity to reassess our choice by allowing things to remain as is or instituting a change in response to what has occurred. The real question is whether our commitment was based solely on what we believed to be true, is borne from within, or is influenced by both perspectives in some capacity.

This reinforces your later remarks on the value you had to the party in question. That's really the crux of it. I find the higher the esteem of the union and other person the less likely the individual is to vacate without a compelling reason (one that exceeds) the level assigned to the other elements mentioned. If ones loyalty to the truth outweighs their commitment to the other person, change will ensue. If it does not, it's probable that the individual will wrestle through the situation and reach a new level of relating with their counterpart.

I hope that made sense.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 7:53:02 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

It means I am aware of their existence while focusing and planning on the best outcome.



And right here is where it all falls apart for me.  I am not gleefully naive in all facets of life, but when it comes to a significant relationship, I have not a clue those negative outcomes exist until they are at my door.  I am more aware of this tendency than I used to be.  That's why I will seek counsel of others about bringing someone into my life.  I come to them from the very beginning, not when I run into some kind of bump.  I need those valued, but unbiased insights to help me make good decisions.  These are people tried and true and tested time and again and I know I can trust them even with my life.

I have also come to know that, for me, being skeptical in relationships is harmful for me.  Just for me.  No one else.  It made me needlessly insecure more often than it protected me.  That's how I came to the compromise I have now.  I just go along being me, but with my wise counsel in tow.  That way I can remain positive and sane in the trust building phase, but can also respond more quickly and before as much is invested if my usual methods have failed.  Like I said, I don't allow people to remain in my life that I would not want significantly impacting it.  It works for me and works well.  It's not right for everyone.  I do make my own decision.  I just have the benefit of a neutral third party.

Anyway, I think that is an inherent difference between us.  It isn't right or wrong.  It just is.  It changes the way we will view certain things and this issue is definitely one of them.

lovingpet


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 8:07:43 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

At some point we all have to make a judgment call about people within our circle.  This decision isn't the same as judging them as people.  That decision is based on whether or not that person is healthy and functional within our own lives and reality.


Greetings lovingpet,

Sometimes we make good choices and others not so good. The results of such take into account the information or resources we had at the time the decision was made. When the situation alters we're presented with another opportunity to reassess our choice by allowing things to remain as is or instituting a change in response to what has occurred. The real question is whether our commitment was based solely on what we believed to be true, is borne from within, or is influenced by both perspectives in some capacity.

This reinforces your later remarks on the value you had to the party in question. That's really the crux of it. I find the higher the esteem of the union and other person the less likely the individual is to vacate without a compelling reason (one that exceeds) the level assigned to the other elements mentioned. If ones loyalty to the truth outweighs their commitment to the other person, change will ensue. If it does not, it's probable that the individual will wrestle through the situation and reach a new level of relating with their counterpart.

I hope that made sense.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



True enough.  I will put up with a lot of crap no one else could ever get away with from my partners and family.  Sometimes I adapt and other times endure.  Regardless of how I do it, I do so because I care too much to walk away.  Let some acquaintence try the same and I may very well shred them.  I think investment comes over time and more investment results in higher losses and ones that may not be acceptable.  It may be part of why someone may choose to leave sooner rather than later...to save the extra investment staying might create.  At the same time, that also requires leaving potential unrealized.  I just can't walk away from potential.  I don't think it necessarily makes me better or worse than anyone else.  It just is.

lovingpet


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 8:40:19 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Did I make any sense at all?  Complex thoughts sometimes don't translate well to written anymore.  It's one of the reasons I post less.

lovingpet        


Yes, you did make sense :) 

I think we were posting from different view points.  Perhaps you were speaking from a more personal reference of your inner circle and I was speaking in general terms. But I do see where you're coming from.  I still disagree that most people break off relationships frivolously, but we don't have to agree on that.

Thanks for the clarification.


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 8:49:35 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

True enough.  I will put up with a lot of crap no one else could ever get away with from my partners and family.  Sometimes I adapt and other times endure.  Regardless of how I do it, I do so because I care too much to walk away.  Let some acquaintence try the same and I may very well shred them.  I think investment comes over time and more investment results in higher losses and ones that may not be acceptable.  It may be part of why someone may choose to leave sooner rather than later...to save the extra investment staying might create.  At the same time, that also requires leaving potential unrealized.  I just can't walk away from potential.  I don't think it necessarily makes me better or worse than anyone else.  It just is.


Greetings lovingpet,

I've reconciled the fact that I have learned how to stay put and depending on the situation leaving is probably not an option barring something truly horrendous. I make a conscious effort to keep my previous experiences out of those that follow and sincerely feel that allowing the ghost of yesterday to rob me of what's to come is a reality I'm unwilling to swallow. In terms of investment, I'm either in or out. I think the results of that choice will amplify and deepen with time and experience, but the decision to embark isn't one I undertake lightly.

Much like you I have difficulty parting ways unless I've exhausted all avenues. The potential and ramifications of abandoning something I've committed to weigh heavily on me. It's humbling to know that there are persons that I simply cannot release, even though holding on takes an immense effort and challenges me in a manner that I'd never anticipate. I don't view this as a preferred way of being, but merely the pruning of my character and the deepened realization of the power one's will can have over its subject.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 8:56:01 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine


I believe there's a marked difference in what one knows and what the individual chooses to place at the forefront of their thoughts. Where we differ is in emphasizing what is true. If it is such there's little need to say or remind myself of its existence. It simply is. However, there comes a point when one can move beyond those things (which can be limitations in some instances) and allow new truths to come into play.

I actually don't think we differ in our thinking here.  You're stating the point I was trying to state.  I know it exists, but I don't focus on it.  Some truths will always be truths, however, and not require moving beyond. Not all limitations are negative in their nature.

quote:



It is impossible to have the old when a new situation has come into being. You've introduced a different element that by its presence will alter the subject in some capacity.


But this is true just living life, whether in a relationship or not.  With me, the old is not laid down, it eventually morphs. 

I recently had a conversation with someone close to me, and I was telling her I was struggling with all the huge changes I've gone through in the last few years.  My life is so different than it was, that when I look back, I can't relate at all to the person I used to be.  I felt like I had no connection at all to my past - like it was someone else.  I told her I felt like I had blinked and in the time it took to blink I had become someone else.  It was surreal, and I was stuck in trying to process it.

She reminded me of some really big accomplishments I had achieved on my own in that time, and how it wasn't a blink, but to look at it as a series of women in various stages, all holding hands, connecting me to the woman in the past.  I loved the visual!  But it helped me put all the pieces together.  All those women in that visual were me, just in varying evolutions of me.  I think what tripped me up was your expression of laying down our former self.  As you said, we may just be using different verbiage.

quote:


It isn't the fact that he has taken me on but the understanding that our union necessitates a different way of relating that will call upon behaviors that were in existence, implement others, and reshape my person overall. Our pairing creates a collective actualization and the obliteration is beneficial for both parties.

The 'me' continually evolves because the wheel of life never stops turning. The results of that process bear witness to his influence. Change the element and I'm subject to a different influence. Nonetheless the old has been born anew in some capacity.


I agree here, but these are subtle influences which creates a gradual evolution.  I think I just see it differently than you, which of course is perfectly OK.  I don't see an obliteration or being born anew.  Maybe because of such drastic changes that created a new life for me before I met him...this IS my life, and my union with him is exactly where I was headed, if that makes sense.

quote:


Abundance doesn't suggest that the individual hasn't sacrificed or released behaviors that are no longer conducive to their lifestyle or the person they've become. At some point we begin to recognize that something has outlived its usefulness and its set aside in deference for something more applicable to our current situation/self. Emptying needn't be seen from a negative perspective. In fact, it is merely a different manifestation of a path one can take as Master and slave. Our verbiage may differ and so may the ultimate goal, but I'm certain there are more common denominators than differences.


I am pretty certain of those common denominators, too.




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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/24/2010 9:00:43 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I have also come to know that, for me, being skeptical in relationships is harmful for me. 


Hi again :)

Just a quick clarification, for what it's worth, and then I have to close up for the night.

When I referenced my possible skepticism, it was mentioned as a possibility overall, and certainly not that I feel skeptical in my relationship.  I think skepticism within an intimate relationship is harmful to that relationship.  Maybe I just used the wrong term.  Or maybe because I still see my relationship as someone new in its creation, even at a year and a half in.  We have only recently been speaking of "forever," which is a word I had stopped believing in.  I do believe in it now, but I know it takes a unified and honest approach to achieving. 

Thanks for such an interesting conversation. 


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/25/2010 7:30:18 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

But this is true just living life, whether in a relationship or not.  With me, the old is not laid down, it eventually morphs.


Greetings NuevaVida,

I should have noted that the laying down includes that which is discarded and the evolutionary process as well. I simply lumped them together under one slogan.

quote:

She reminded me of some really big accomplishments I had achieved on my own in that time, and how it wasn't a blink, but to look at it as a series of women in various stages, all holding hands, connecting me to the woman in the past.  I loved the visual!  But it helped me put all the pieces together.  All those women in that visual were me, just in varying evolutions of me.  I think what tripped me up was your expression of laying down our former self.  As you said, we may just be using different verbiage.


This reminds me of a recent discussion and one I've had in the not so distant past about where I am at present and how that person sharply differs from the perspective and desires I held long ago. While I understood changes were taking place, the eventual outcome has been a shock and one I attempted to refute when faced with the truth. Accepting and embracing the new me has alleviated this. The unexpected alterations that occurred without intentional planning were the ones I found most troubling. Perhaps it was merely a succession of steps I've taken over time that gave birth to an outcome that could not manifest itself until I was ready to bring it forth. I think we're on the same page now.

quote:

I agree here, but these are subtle influences which creates a gradual evolution.  I think I just see it differently than you, which of course is perfectly OK.  I don't see an obliteration or being born anew.  Maybe because of such drastic changes that created a new life for me before I met him...this IS my life, and my union with him is exactly where I was headed, if that makes sense.


I'd posit that the union couldn't occur unless you were at the point [as mentioned] where you'd be receptive to him. Which only confirms that he appeared when you were able to receive him and return what he sought in turn. And you're right, it wasn't an obliteration [for me], I've simply come full circle. I got what I wanted and didn't realize it until our discussion. You've given me something to chew on. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/26/2010 4:32:50 AM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I recently had a conversation with someone close to me, and I was telling her I was struggling with all the huge changes I've gone through in the last few years.  My life is so different than it was, that when I look back, I can't relate at all to the person I used to be.  I felt like I had no connection at all to my past - like it was someone else.  I told her I felt like I had blinked and in the time it took to blink I had become someone else.  It was surreal, and I was stuck in trying to process it.

She reminded me of some really big accomplishments I had achieved on my own in that time, and how it wasn't a blink, but to look at it as a series of women in various stages, all holding hands, connecting me to the woman in the past.  I loved the visual!  But it helped me put all the pieces together.  All those women in that visual were me, just in varying evolutions of me.  I think what tripped me up was your expression of laying down our former self.  As you said, we may just be using different verbiage.

quote:


It isn't the fact that he has taken me on but the understanding that our union necessitates a different way of relating that will call upon behaviors that were in existence, implement others, and reshape my person overall. Our pairing creates a collective actualization and the obliteration is beneficial for both parties.

The 'me' continually evolves because the wheel of life never stops turning. The results of that process bear witness to his influence. Change the element and I'm subject to a different influence. Nonetheless the old has been born anew in some capacity.



personally ive learnt what ive learnt and brought it forward into the now.  the amazing thing about these relationships is that they change you but for me, they change me in the direction im most naturally going to flow in any case.  and so everything we go through strengthens and colours us in, a little more fully each time.  i wonder sometimes if that is part of the addiction.  as painful as change is it is part of the ever evolving process that makes us who we are.

maybe we are change junkies

i know that im at a point of stasis, with everything in my life and for me as a slave-type i badly need, i realise, the catalyst of change and for me the cataslyst of change comes through the influence of someone else who is more grounded and focused than i am. 

im realising with each day that passes that strong as i am im not a survivor in this world, im a muddler and botcher and an ostrich who sticks her head in the sand and hopes it will all go away.

for me the choice is becoming clearer with each passing day.  i have no choice with regard to who i am.  ive tried hard to do this on my own and i cant.  its not about being 'fixed' its about accepting who i am really, a change junkie who needs order in her life to function.

thats what ive learnt about myself recently and its been a shock i can tell you!

i think ive changed into someone who can now recognise that i function better in Ms.  pretty sure that isnt a choice, ive merely evolved, morphed, leap frogged from each phase of me to where i am now.

im wondering if id have been better off not finding this out.  - ah well, too late now! - onwards and upwards.

_____________________________

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/26/2010 1:46:33 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I will be honest in saying that I do NOT invest fully in every relationship that comes down the pike from Day 1. I do NOT go into every relationship expecting that it will be ideal if I just work hard enough at it.

Instead, I invest in relationships in a steadily increasing level, over time. If, at some point in that investment process, it becomes clear to me that this relationship is not going to continue to function, I -do- strive to work towards an ending that is functional, honest, and assures that any commitments that were in place are properly resolved. This in mind, I do NOT make "lifelong commitments" or "forever promises". I promise exactly what I can deliver. I promise that I will come to know the other person to the best of my ability, that I will make the relationship a key priority in my life (with the understanding that, in my situation "the relationship" means my relationship with my family/household as a whole... with respect for the fact that a newcomer into that family is going to need adjustment time and special care to assure that xhe will be able to ease into our existing structures); that I will assure that there is a functional "exit strategy" in place so that the newcomer does not have to worry about opening hirself in our household -- that xhe will not be forced to stay where xhe clearly does not fit and clearly does not want to be, nor will we hold on to someone just to prove that we -can- when it is clear that xhe is not a good fit for our situation.



That is logical course to take (and fwiw, it seems to me that you promise a lot!) I wish I could do that (logically and slow increasing the investment level) with relationships. I don't though. Something tells me that it's right, very right, and I jump in fully. I've seldom been wrong about that--or maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I assume something is going to be wonderful and so it is? I don't hear the "this is right" voice very often though.

The households you describe remind me very much of urban communes. There was a fellow at a university (Rutgers, I think) who studied these intensively. He'd contact my master semi-regularly because my master had been involved in the longest running urban commune he'd studied so far--so I picked up a little about the subject.

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 1:45:52 AM   
DMFParadox


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Status: offline 		A really agile, clever person in the right circumstances can start a rhythm that, like the weaving of a snake, hypnotizes another into doing almost anything asked. Except this... but that... and with the caveat of a thing...

No one can possibly control another person. Except this... but that... and with the caveat of a thing...

Both choice, and lack of choice, are illusion. Life just moves. That's all.


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 4:23:10 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Both choice, and lack of choice, are illusion. Life just moves. That's all.



Perhaps it is the writer in me, but I disagree with this profoundly. I've seen FAR too many people in the course of a lifetime who do NOT move. The world may move -around- them, but they stay, steadfastly stuck, right where they are. The thing that holds them back, inevitably, is the incapacity to MAKE A CHOICE.

In developing a scene, in writing, the thing that moves the scene forward is change. The thing that PRECIPITATES change, in every case where there are thinking creatures involved, is CHOICE.

Life does not move on its own. If it did, we would all be nothing more than victims of the whims of some fanciful god, fate, destiny, or gravity. I am not a victim of my life. I am a conscious creator of that life. I believe profoundly that we all are, whether we acknowledge that fact or not. To me, saying that there is no choice, and that the Universe moves us to its will is the lazy person's way of attempting to escape responsibility for the life which xhe has created.

Does this mean that -everything- that happens to me will be something that I choose? While I believe that a large portion of what occurs in our life occurs by our own will, I do believe that other peoples' will may intersect with mine in ways that are -- unexpected and even unpleasant. HOWEVER, whether or not I actively chose a SITUATION, I do actively choose how to RESPOND to that situation. For good or ill, the way that I move through life is my own burden to bear. The things that I do, or do not do, are the choices that shape the direction of my life. I yield when I believe that it is in my best interests or the best interests of my family for me to do so. I resist when doing so seems more likely to assure my progression. I act, or do not act, by my own will, and in so doing I move not only MY life, but provide gravity and impetus in the lives directly connected to my own (and, since energy is not destroyed, but merely changes, my choice and the attendant actions also impact others whom I may never know and never see).

Life does not "just move". We move it by conscious will, or let it stay stagnant and suffer as victims by lack of will.

Calla


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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 5:58:04 AM   
wandersalone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Life does not "just move". We move it by conscious will, or let it stay stagnant and suffer as victims by lack of will.

I totally agree with this although as a qualifier I will add that fear (including fear of the unknown) is often a huge reason why people remain stuck even if they believe that they really want to change their situation. (sometimes the feet need time to catch up with the brain )

edited to add a bit more info


< Message edited by wandersalone -- 11/27/2010 6:02:31 AM >

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 6:13:19 AM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

A really agile, clever person in the right circumstances can start a rhythm that, like the weaving of a snake, hypnotizes another into doing almost anything asked. Except this... but that... and with the caveat of a thing...

No one can possibly control another person. Except this... but that... and with the caveat of a thing...




Forgive me, but was this meant in response to what I said about wishing I could go slower in relationship investing (I doubt if it was about the urban commune tangent) or was it in response to another general theme going on in this many-splendored thread? :) If it was my post, I'm pretty sure I do not see the connection between what I said and what you said.

Above, are you referring to what people call "hard limits" when you say "Except this... but that..." and so on? If what you mean is that absolute control is imposssible under non-barbaric circumstances, I agree. But you can get deliriously close to it in a bdsm relationship that consists of someone who both desires and is capable of exerting extreme control (extreme here doesn't mean scope, as in micromanagement, but rather "insistent" upon receiving what it does demand) and someone who both desires and is capable of practicing extreme self-discipline and obedience.

"Both choice, and lack of choice, are illusion. Life just moves. That's all."

Gah! You brought philosophy into this thread! Here come another 10 pages. :p

... And here is my contribution, lol. I think if I felt that way all the time, I wouldn't do a damn thing--and not doing a damn thing feels like a mistake to me. A dead end. So I keep my eyes shut tight when I dive in. I am not particularly good at abstract thinking, but I visualize, based on experience, a thick roiling blackness right under the surface...of everything. From this blackness (maybe it represents the unknown?) springs everything we experience, including thoughts, feelings, objects, and actions, and you're right if you are saying it "just happens" out of the blue. Watching one's thoughts is like watching a movie, I'm clearly not doing any of it. What emerges from the blackness does not strike me as particularly anarchic or chaotic or random, however--there are rules (forces? patterns?) everything responds to, even if we don't know what all of them are. This reminds me of the theory that the universe takes on a particular shape, one that was unexpected given what we know about physics, due to the "dark matter" shaping it. Any given personality acts in certain typical ways and does not act (or rarely acts) in other typical ways. Why? I have no clue, but I try to work closely with the "rules" I've been given. I observe them to understand. I do this because the closer I follow them, the happier I seem to be.

_____________________________

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"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 8:09:34 AM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I actually used to think that I had a choice no matter what. Now, with my Dom, I'm not so sure. I absolutely have a choice of whether or not to leave him if he does something absolutely terrible (like telling me to kill someone), but like Jeff pointed out, it takes an enormous amount of willpower for a submissive person to want to go against the wishes of the dominant person they've chosen to submit to if the Dom isn't doing anything dramatically immoral. Now, if I was truly unhappy, my Dom wouldn't force me to stay with him, but as long as he wants me I actually am not entirely sure I could leave voluntarily, and not leaving means I will obey him, regardless of whether I want to or not.

Now, I know that sounds a bit questionable, but here's the thing: as long as he continues to adjust slightly to accommodate the growing I'm doing as a submissive and person, rebelling against him and/or leaving him would seem completely irrational. I mean, I love him, and that's probably the deepest part of all this, but even if I didn't, and for some reason he wanted me to keep being his, I'm positive he could arrange the situation so that the door out looked a lot less appealing than remaining at his feet. And if he couldn't do that, he would arrange the situation so that I couldn't see a door at all. And if he couldn't do that, he would just tie me up and whisper things in my ear until I collapsed in submissive ecstasy and changed my mind. It would take a lot more than "consent" to get him to let me go. And I hope he never does.

Hopefully I don't sound like a total helpless doormat now. I keep getting deeper into this damn submissive thing and it's completely changing everything I insisted was rigidly true about myself, like all the "bedroom only" submissive stuff I used to say. We'll see how long it takes me to be a complete 24/7 slave


At one point in my life I would have scoffed at this. Then I experienced it and was astounded at the feeling.

It doesn't happen in every D/s or M/s relationship, but it does happen, even when you don't intend for it too lol

You can enter into a power dynamic relationship thinking you know exactly what you will concent to and what you won't concent to and blah blah blah, only to find yourself giving yourself up totally with out thought of concent or not.

Thing is when this type of relationship ends for a reason other then things went bad, it's devastating and really hard to refind your footing.

As for the whole murder crap. I honestly do not believe that someone else can make anyone do something they could not morally conceive of actually doing on their own anyway. We have a responsibility to maintain common sense. like come on.


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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 1:14:00 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Life does not "just move". We move it by conscious will, or let it stay stagnant and suffer as victims by lack of will.


Greetings Dame Calla,

Synchronicity is a wonderful thing. You've confirmed something I've been mulling over recently and I appreciate your contribution. The voice of wisdom speaks.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 4:08:56 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Perhaps it is the writer in me, but I disagree with this profoundly. I've seen FAR too many people in the course of a lifetime who do NOT move.


If they're alive, they move. If they're dead, then some other force vector moves them; but they still move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
The world may move -around- them, but they stay, steadfastly stuck, right where they are. The thing that holds them back, inevitably, is the incapacity to MAKE A CHOICE.


Their lack of choice, is a choice; just as making a choice is predicated by factors outside of the individual in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Life does not move on its own.


It most certainly does. Put the right chemicals in the right sequence together, and it follows an inevitable course of action, creating life. At the same time, the observers alter the effects, on levels both base and so abstract we haven't names for them yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
If it did, we would all be nothing more than victims of the whims of some fanciful god, fate, destiny, or gravity. I am not a victim of my life.


Why victim? Simply a participant. Both will and lack of will are illusory. You see one as being the illusion, feeling that we are all captains of our destinies. Others feel they are not, that they act and feel based on only a complex series of reactions to stimuli. I feel that both perspectives are subject to samsara; both, illusion. One makes the truth of the other, and vice versa, just as 'good' and 'evil' are concepts ultimately based on superficial, circular thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I am a conscious creator of that life.


What then when your life is affected by elements caused while you were unconscious? Or before you were even born? Your nationality, the availability of ideas in the cultural gestalt, even your genetics shape how you plan your days and what thoughts you use to consciously create. Where, then, does oroboros stop eating its tail?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I believe profoundly that we all are, whether we acknowledge that fact or not. To me, saying that there is no choice, and that the Universe moves us to its will is the lazy person's way of attempting to escape responsibility for the life which xhe has created.


I feel that assuming either we have command, or that we don't, is the lazy thinking. Reality encompasses both, in a dance of duality that is very, very difficult to look beyond - but it's possible. Superficially, one can look at a piece of one or a piece of the other and say, "It's this way except when it's that way." That's incorrect; it is both, always, at all times.

When you can hold both ideas gently and see how they are ultimately the same idea, same coin with different sides, such distinctions are meaningless, except when trying to communicate within context. It's hard to express; much easier to say, life just moves.


_____________________________

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"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 4:16:01 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

Their lack of choice, is a choice; just as making a choice is predicated by factors outside of the individual in question.


Speaking of Ouroboros... If failing to choose IS choosing... then all things are choice... and so life does not just move -- by active or passive "choice" we move it.

quote:

What then when your life is affected by elements caused while you were unconscious? Or before you were even born? Your nationality, the availability of ideas in the cultural gestalt, even your genetics shape how you plan your days and what thoughts you use to consciously create.


I believe that I addressed this in my earlier comment:
Does this mean that -everything- that happens to me will be something that I choose? While I believe that a large portion of what occurs in our life occurs by our own will, I do believe that other peoples' will may intersect with mine in ways that are -- unexpected and even unpleasant. HOWEVER, whether or not I actively chose a SITUATION, I do actively choose how to RESPOND to that situation. For good or ill, the way that I move through life is my own burden to bear.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/27/2010 9:35:04 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Their lack of choice, is a choice; just as making a choice is predicated by factors outside of the individual in question.


Speaking of Ouroboros... If failing to choose IS choosing... then all things are choice... and so life does not just move -- by active or passive "choice" we move it.

quote:

What then when your life is affected by elements caused while you were unconscious? Or before you were even born? Your nationality, the availability of ideas in the cultural gestalt, even your genetics shape how you plan your days and what thoughts you use to consciously create.


I believe that I addressed this in my earlier comment:
Does this mean that -everything- that happens to me will be something that I choose? While I believe that a large portion of what occurs in our life occurs by our own will, I do believe that other peoples' will may intersect with mine in ways that are -- unexpected and even unpleasant. HOWEVER, whether or not I actively chose a SITUATION, I do actively choose how to RESPOND to that situation. For good or ill, the way that I move through life is my own burden to bear.

Calla


If by active or passive choice you move life, and you have no choice but to make that choice, then it can only be said with confidence that life will move. Regardless of notions such as 'burdens', 'good', or 'ill'.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 200
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