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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 5:30:00 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

ONCE, JUST ONCE, i would love to see a discussion like this without paranoid people bringing up concepts like victims and abusers or extreme concepts like what if he tells you to murder someone. MAYBE just maybe then, people may start understanding the concepts spoken about instead of freaking out and being all paranoid about them. And maybe then some of the misconceptions can start being cleared up.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 121

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 5:58:13 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Nods. I also think it's a thing thing, not a good thing or a bad thing. But it's certainly different! At least to me. :) Don't you do small things unthinkingly, like grabbing your coat and keys or driving the same route to work or washing yourself? Do you think about that stuff? Those things tend to become semi-unconscious for me.

Ok, I know this is going to sound strange, but no... I think through all of this stuff. "Is it cold enough for a coat, or can I get away without one today?"... "Do I need the -full- set of keys, or can I just grab the mini set with just the car and the gate key?"... "Do I want to take 610, or shall I take Shephard... or take 59 to 288"?... Seriously. I think -constantly-. One of my biggest challenges is getting to sleep at night, because my brain does not know when to frigging -shut up-. Every single thing I do is a -decision process-. Even bathing -- Shower or bath? Exfoliant or not? Lukewarm or cool?... I am aware of every single little choice over the course of a day (and acutely aware of all of the times I procrastinate, choose something I know isn't good for me, or make a choice on what I think may be too little information that may come back to bite me in the butt down the road).

I simply can't fathom -not- thinking about things... Ok... so I think maybe I think too much...

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to CaringandReal)

Post #: 122

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 6:09:59 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Perhaps, like in nonBDSM relationships, the option of leaving opening up once the relationship is sufficiently unpleasant depends entirely on how healthy the submissive or victim was going into the relationship. If you were strong and independent once, then you have that as a memory of what freedom could bring. Those who go from dysfunction to dysfunction simply don't have any internal model for functional.

Ok, so despite my incapacity to truly understand the mindset as presented by barelyanangel or daddysprop, I have to say that I find it annoying that someone would presume that the state of enslavement is a -dysfunction-. Really? Seriously?

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 123

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 6:40:44 AM

SpaceSpank

Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

ONCE, JUST ONCE, i would love to see a discussion like this without paranoid people bringing up concepts like victims and abusers or extreme concepts like what if he tells you to murder someone. MAYBE just maybe then, people may start understanding the concepts spoken about instead of freaking out and being all paranoid about them. And maybe then some of the misconceptions can start being cleared up.

angel

But they happen. Do you deny that they can happen?

And as was noted before. YOU, right now, at this point, and maybe never in your relationship, ever conceive of having the choice to leave.

But at some point it's possible that it will pop into your mind. And as you say you work in the legal field, you know there is absolutely nothing your Master could do to make you stay if you really do make that choice.

Hence, you have that choice. You keep trying to make it this overwrought and complicated issue, but you.... have...that...choice. You simply do not use it, or even think of the ability to use it. Those are two entirely different things.

Your Master has full control over you because he is a good fit for you, the relationship works, and you have no physical or emotional need to escape it at this time. I hope that all keeps going as is, or even gets better, I really do. But that is not the case for everyone. As said, abuse happens in life. Who is to say a situation like yours does not find the Master falling into alcohol/drugs and eventual abuse?
Maybe you or someone like you would still stay as you are now and accept it. But at some point that switch in your head might go off and tell you to get the fuck out. Maybe it won't... but the option is still there. Even if you stayed until you died or were even killed, you still had the option. You were just incapable of using it, or even realizing it. But again, those are not the same as not having it. They only look the same from a high level.

This has nothing to do with "never having experienced it" or not knowing what it's like. I also know that most M/s relationships are NOT analogous to historical slavery... that was my entire point. Those slaves had very few, if any rights as a person, whereas a slave in a modern M/s relationship is still legally a person. A Master cannot take away those rights, he (or she) can only master the slave to the extent the slave is willing to be Mmstered. If he pushes for more, whatever that may be, the slave choose to leave. For you? Maybe there is no amount your Master could ever push you that would get you to that point. That is entirely possible, but more probable is that your Master would never even try and push you to that point, because he cares about you and values you.

You can also bring in illegal restraint, etc... but I am trying to avoid illegal activities as anyone can start removing another persons choices by using such methods. If someone has a Master that is using violence, force, or something like heavy addiction to narcotics to keep their slave there, that shows that their choice would likely be to not stay there and such methods are being used to keep them from ever making that choice. That is a much different situation, and one that has no bearing on the core of this discussion.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 124

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 6:55:02 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

spacespank, i have posted a lot in this thread, i suggest you go back and read everything.   Please stop, i mean seriously. Because your posts show you have no clue ESPECIALLY about me. I am not going to keep going over this with you. So before you start telling ME about ME, i suggest you realize, i know more about ME and what i speak of than you ever will. Seriously go back and actually READ what i have written because your posts to me show you aren't READING what i have been saying. And also recognize you don't know my relationship so i would suggest you stop commenting on things you don't know because assume -- you know the drill.

As for all the BS about making slavery and such about victims and abusers -- IT HAPPENS IN EVERY RELATIONSHIP PEOPLE CAN CONCEIVE OF NOT JUST M/S.   Which is why it should NOT be brought up as an "argument" because people go on the premise that the average M/s relationship does not have that happen.

To bring it up in discussions like this causes GREAT misconceptions about the relationship. It shows a fear that doesn't NEED to be there, and it shows ignorance based on people NOT UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IT.   Now maybe you like running around creating misconceptions, but i tend to do my best to break them when they are things i experienced and lived.

BLAH deleted because i am not going to bring this BS about legalities into it.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/20/2010 6:57:51 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to SpaceSpank)

Post #: 125

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 6:55:43 AM

SpaceSpank

Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Ok, so despite my incapacity to truly understand the mindset as presented by barelyanangel or daddysprop, I have to say that I find it annoying that someone would presume that the state of enslavement is a -dysfunction-. Really? Seriously?

Calla

I think he's saying that, much like any relationship, there are those who do not have the mental facility to actually make that choice correctly. If you were an otherwise healthy and normal person and then wound up in a relationship feeling as barelyanangel and daddysprop do. There is a good chance that you are still a healthy and normal individual.

However, if you have a history of emotional and/or psychological issues and then wind up in the same sort of relationship. There's a good chance that it's simply a continuation of that dysfunctional behaviour.

At least, I hope that is what he meant. Because those who are in M/s or any BDSM lifestyle are certainly not inherently dysfunctional.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 126

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 7:16:02 AM

SpaceSpank

Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
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Yes, spanking can be seen as illegal in some situations. But are you REALLY trying to say that someone spanking a person in play and somehow getting called on it in front of a judge will even remotely be on the same level as something like kidnapping? And no, consent does not make it legal. I know this. But there are gigantic differences between 2 people getting called out on something kinky that both consented too and something one party forced on the other. Might you do jail time for both? Quite possible. But you are just hashing out semantics here, or do you honestly not see the difference between a couple getting caught in a consenting act and one violently forcing his way on another person?

I bring up abuse because you seem to be annoyed that it was ever mentioned at all... yes, it can happen in a vanilla relationship, that does not make it any less important. And I would say it is far more important to bring up in many BDSM relationships than vanilla. When things like choking, bruises, cutting, burning, etc may be your norm, you need to be far more careful of where that line of abuse starts.

And yes, I read all of the posts in this, including yours. You and daddysprop are the only 2 people in here adamantly stating that you have 0 choice whatsoever. So forgive me for replying to the more vocal of 2 people. I honestly do not mean offense, and yes you do know yourself better than I do. But that does not change that you still keep that choice. Or do you deny that if you hypothetically decided you wanted to leave and would not change your mind, that your Master has no legal way to keep you there? There is no way to deny you have that ability. Only that you would NOT use it, which is not what is being debated. We know already that you have firmly stated you would not even think of doing so.

(in reply to SpaceSpank)

Post #: 127

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 7:41:36 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Oh i am sorry, i didn't know this was a popularity concept that the majority of relationships overrun and overrule relationships that tend to be not the norm. Seems you missed my comments in my posts where in i said that what i am speaking of isn't the NORM, it also isn't something MOST people ever achieve. So yeah i would imagine that the proportion of the people who are speaking about what i am would be a LOT smaller than the NORM. Its why many people won't and don't understand what i speak about and how the mastery can make the concept of choice moot.

Umm sorry dude, but do you understand mastery? I mean seriously? Do you understand the concept of taking of autonomy? Do you understand the concept of choice becomes MOOT? Because from what you are saying you don't. Until you do, you WON'T GET IT. Its okay, you don't have to understand everything about what everyone else does.

You can stamp your foot and tell me what i had and blah blah. It doesn't change what i lived or what other people LIVE. You can continue saying what you are just like i told Icary's it won't make any difference to the people involved in same. So seriously, who are you trying to convince? I know what i lived and others know what they live, do you seriously believe my whole understanding of my experience is going to change because you want me to believe as you do about what transpired in my relationship? Seriously?

As i said in a post earlier, i speak on threads like this so people know that relationships like mine do exist and its okay. You don't have to like that relationships like mine exist, you don't have to accept it. No one is saying you do and i don't expect you too.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to SpaceSpank)

Post #: 128

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 7:42:46 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

her choices are no longer her own

I actually agree with this; however I don't interpret it as "I have no choices". In my relationship, I can make all the choices that I want, but I do not have the authority to act on those choices. Hence, my chocies are no longer my own.

I am also in an "obey or leave" relationship (and it so often gets such a bad rap). For me, obeying him is almost as automatic as breathing. It is my natural response to him as an authority figure in my life. It is a choice about being true to myself or being someone different. If it ever came to a point where obedience was not a natural response to him, then one of us would have changed in who we are in a very fundamental way.

For me, the idea of willfully disobeying him is unthinkable; much like for many the idea of leaving is unthinkable. It is an option that is there, but it is an option that isn't considered because of who we are.

As a slave, I can make all the choices I want, but I can only act upon them if it is his will that I do so. So are they really my choices or is it his will?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to AislynLass)

Post #: 129

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 8:01:09 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Oh i am sorry, i didn't know this was a popularity concept that the majority of relationships overrun and overrule relationships that tend to be not the norm. Seems you missed my comments in my posts where in i said that what i am speaking of isn't the NORM, it also isn't something MOST people ever achieve. So yeah i would imagine that the proportion of the people who are speaking about what i am would be a LOT smaller than the NORM. Its why many people won't and don't understand what i speak about and how the mastery can make the concept of choice moot.

Umm sorry dude, but do you understand mastery? I mean seriously? Do you understand the concept of taking of autonomy? Do you understand the concept of choice becomes MOOT? Because from what you are saying you don't. Until you do, you WON'T GET IT. Its okay, you don't have to understand everything about what everyone else does.

You can stamp your foot and tell me what i had and blah blah. It doesn't change what i lived or what other people LIVE. You can continue saying what you are just like i told Icary's it won't make any difference to the people involved in same. So seriously, who are you trying to convince? I know what i lived and others know what they live, do you seriously believe my whole understanding of my experience is going to change because you want me to believe as you do about what transpired in my relationship? Seriously?

As i said in a post earlier, i speak on threads like this so people know that relationships like mine do exist and its okay. You don't have to like that relationships like mine exist, you don't have to accept it. No one is saying you do and i don't expect you too.

angel

It sounds to me that your the one who's trying to do the convincing. Your trying to convince us all that you've held a golden egg and in reality it's the same chicken egg that we all hold. Your glorifying your relationship that you had. kudos for you..

I often think of my past relationships in a very good light as well.

Asking someone "Do you know what the concept of Mastery is" and "Do you know what the concept of taking autonomy is" is exactly the foot stomping your accusing others of doing.

I promise you that you don't have an insight into anything that another isn't capable of seeing and in this case..isn't seeing...Your the only one who can't see that.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 130

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 8:10:52 AM

SpaceSpank

Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Oh i am sorry, i didn't know this was a popularity concept that the majority of relationships overrun and overrule relationships that tend to be not the norm.

Umm sorry dude, but do you understand mastery? I mean seriously? Do you understand the concept of taking of autonomy? Do you understand the concept of choice becomes MOOT? Because from what you are saying you don't. Until you do, you WON'T GET IT. Its okay, you don't have to understand everything about what everyone else does.

As i said in a post earlier, i speak on threads like this so people know that relationships like mine do exist and its okay. You don't have to like that relationships like mine exist, you don't have to accept it. No one is saying you do and i don't expect you too.

angel

I meant your relationship norm, which implies what is normal for you and yours. Everyone has them. Societal norms exist as well, and certainly have bearing on many topics, but that is not what I was referring too. And as point, yes, norms CAN overrule your relationship. you made that point yourself earlier about spanking being illegal in some areas and consent not legally being applicable in all situatons.

Yes, I very much understand what Mastery means. And I understand fully well that I have an obligation to my slave(s). If I began pushing every boundary my slave had, ignoring any hard limits she set without regard to her well being, no discussion, ignoring her as a slave and a person, etc. I would be a fool to expect that just because everything up to that point had been perfect and that she had been my perfectly submissive slave till now that she would just keep going with it.
Would she leave? Maybe. But I would be ignorant to simply expect her not to at least start thinking about it.
Part of being a good Master is not being oblivious and uncaring to your slaves needs (whatever those happen to be).

I get that your relationship works and you feel totally loyal to your Master to the point of having no autonomy. I am not trying to say it isn't or that you do not feel that way. But despite your stomping your foot at the issue, if the situation ever came up where you irrevocably felt you needed to leave, you can. But I also reiterate that it is very conceivable that this may not ever come up for you, as this is nothing more than a hypothetical discussion.

I certainly take no issues with your relationship, honestly I don't. No kidding around or sarcasm, I am very happy for you and your Master to be so well paired. But that is a partnership that you both take part in and work to keep up.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 131

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 8:16:30 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Icary's that's what you don't get. This isn't a one up concept. And you keep trying to make it one which flabbergasts me, are you really that insecure with what YOU want? OR is it that you strive for what i speak of and have yet to be able to achieve it that you yourself will sit here pretty much demanding it isn't capable of existing? I can't think of any other reason as to why you want to sit here and tell people it doesn't exist when you do have people telling you it IS possible and it does happen.

What i had Icary's i rarely find that other people had, occassionally on boards like this there may be one or two other people who know what i speak of. Which is why i do speak of it. Icary's you don't get it, i don't care if you ever understand it or accept it can occur. It won't effect my life at all nor will it effect women who live what i speak. I will speak up in threads like this because there are people who do seek what i and others have or had. And i simply want them to know that what they realize -- i.e., choice becomes moot, isn't a bad thing, isn't them hiding from something or ignoring something, it simply is what it is. And its okay. ANd does exist despite the naysayers. Its for them i speak Icarys, not you who is a naysayer. You aren't the important concept here. To me, those people who are new or who are experiencing what i speak and don't understand it and it scares them are the ones who are important. Maybe, just maybe, my explaining what they are thinking IS happening and IS okay, and is not negative, may help them embrace it without utter fear or worry.

You may have other reasons for posting in threads like this, but mine is simply offering my experience of a very not the norm concept with regard to M/s. To me, only people who may want what i had would find what i speak about as some one-up concept they haven't experienced or reached so they have convinced themselves it CAN'T exist. Otherwise, people seek what they want. MOST people Icary's don't want the relationship i speak about. I know that, they know that etc.

If you don't believe experiencing something that someone else hasn't doesn't give that person a more solid base of understanding then you are a fool. There is a huge difference between book smarts and street smarts. While they both give you information, only one is where you actually experience something and be able to analyze it at a level and a depth the book smarts never allows.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/20/2010 8:20:17 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 132

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 8:42:28 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Spacespank, its obvious you haven't read my other posts because your post here speaks of a concept i fully admitted can happen.

You don't understand mastery based on your post. I have said and will say this one last time -- IF the mastery starts being withdrawn and he gives her back some or all of her autonomy, she will regain her self-determination. So in your little scenerio, if a Man does something in his mastering of a woman, he could very well in fact destroy some of the bonds his mastery holds her to him. Hence his mastery is not as full or strong, and she does in fact receive some of her autonomy back. So yes, it may lead to her getting if he doesn't restrengthen his hold on her, enough self-determination to determine to leave. Mastery is a live thing, it needs to be maintained, if its not then her autonomy is returned and she will eventually regain the self-determination to determine for herself how she will exist in his life. Some men are capable of keeping the mastery strong until he actively decides to remove it, and there are men who aren't capable of maintaining it. There are men who can create the mastery but not recover when they inadvertently remove part of that mastery. You don't seem to get this.

Ummm no,i didn't have loyalty to him and said i had no autonomy. Do you KNOW what autonomy means? I didn't govern my life he did, because of his mastery and his will was stronger than my own to govern myself. So i existed in his life based on this because of HIS determination, not my own. Choice was MOOT.

I have said MANY TIMES IN MY POSTS you have CLAIMED to read that if the MASTERY is removed, the autonomy is returned and there does become a point she regains enough self-determination TO LEAVE.

READ MY POSTS because its obvious you haven't. smirks and societal norms wasn't his concern lol. So no, societal norms don't always mean anything, its only people who allow them too that it matters to them.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/20/2010 8:44:23 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 133

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 9:05:49 AM

SpaceSpank

Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
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You're arguing people in circle angel, so of course you're going to win, there is no way to win a cyclical argument.

You can't leave your Master because you have no autonomy because he is your Master and you cannot leave, up until you do have autonomy because he's no longer your Master.

That is your argument.

There's no way to logically refute you because you simply double back to not having autonomy until you do, but then argue that you don't have it until your Master is no longer your Master. At what point does the ability to regain autonomy fall on the Master? What if the slaves needs/wants change and the Master is not made aware? Is he no longer a Master, or a bad Master because the slave has changed? What if the slave just wakes up one day out of the blue and decides she needs to leave. No real reason for it, it just came into her head out of the blue and won't go away. Is that the Masters responsibility?

You're confusing your emotional response and feelings with logic and attacking others with rhetorical questions and personal attacks. Goading others for not knowing what a Master is, while not defining it yourself, and further claiming that you are the only possible correct viewpoint on this topic because you had/have a relationship that made you feel this way... well. I have no issues with you angel, you have some really good points in other topics, but you are presenting a flawed emotional argument here as cold hard fact.

So with that, I'll concede this argument halfheartedly before it gets any worse than it is.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 134

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 9:26:38 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

Icary's that's what you don't get. This isn't a one up concept. And you keep trying to make it one which flabbergasts me, are you really that insecure with what YOU want? OR is it that you strive for what i speak of and have yet to be able to achieve it that you yourself will sit here pretty much demanding it isn't capable of existing? I can't think of any other reason as to why you want to sit here and tell people it doesn't exist when you do have people telling you it IS possible and it does happen.

When your post heads toward the personal I can't help but believe that something I've said resonates within you..That's why you respond in the way you do. It's an attempt to deflect what you perceive as a personal attack on your way of life. It's okay...I understand how frustrating it can be when you believe nobody else understands what you say in the way that you believe it to be said.

What your missing is that I have had the experience that your talking about. I don't have a problem with someone getting to a place in their slavery to where their thought process no longer registers "Choice"...There are many ways to get to this point.

I'm just able to objectively understand the why's and how's of it all on a psychological level.

In order to get to a place that you speak of...You had a hand in it...it wasn't an overnight and magical occurrence...it might have happened in such subtle ways that you "being someone who wants to live in the moment instead of thinking of and analyzing everything" just had a hard time registering as choice.

For discussion sake: Rest assured that free will..especially as Des has mentioned...once realized will always be part of that person. Getting to a place of "your type" of submission is at best possibly just suppressing it.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 135

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 9:38:53 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Next time, try and discuss the TOPIC instead of trying to tell someone you know more about their relationship than they do. You may get farther. And you know, before you came running in here to tell me all about my relationships, this thread was fine in its debate. Funny, you come in and beeline for me and my relationship telling ME about my relationship and i get irritated. As i said next time keep on topic instead of thinking you know more about someone's relationships than they do, and you may find a different reaction.

But you woud have to put the arrogance of believing you know more about someone's relationship than they do aside. Something tells me you aren't capable of doing so. I mean unbelievable, you come in and read a couple posts wherein i explained part of my relationship with regardto the topic and suddenly you are an EXPERT on MY relationship.

Here's a clue, because you don't. The relationship is over. SO i am speaking from not only a viewpoint of becoming mastered, but of actually achieving what i speak about, and then finally having the mastery removed and my autonomy returned to me.

Oh but i am sure you seem to know MORE about that then i do. Hell all i did was experience it and live it.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to SpaceSpank)

Post #: 136

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 9:47:17 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iholdthestrings

"One scoop of creamed potatoes. A slice of butter. Four peas. And as much ice cream as you'd like to eat."

Ah, but he was a lawyer, so he had much time on his hands. :) (Edward from the film Secretary who said those words)

(in reply to Iholdthestrings)

Post #: 137

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 9:52:04 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

ICary's what reasonates in me is your insistance that what i speak of doesn't exist. That is all, seriously. I have spoken to too many women who threads like this cause them to doubt what they exist within. Because they think that something is wrong.

YOU HAVE MADE MY POINT of why i ask if people understand mastery. Because i do not and never did say it happened overnight OR was magical. People who understand mastery KNOW this. They know its a progress, they know that the relationship REACHES this point, just as autonomy can be returned it HAS TO BE TAKEN. I mean you speak about logic here Icary's but you didn't apply logic to what i was saying. YOU are the one who seems to have jumped to a conclusion here.

No free will does not exist if your autonomy is in someone else's hands. The choice is MOOT. Its not what holds you, its not what creates the bond, its not anything but a moot concept.   For people like DesFIP, she needs it to be true, and obviously you need it to be true.   But for many of us, its not true. DesFIP based on all of her posts on these boards seems terrified of this concept or any concept of M/s or D/s that basis itself outside of her small circle that isn't fear, i speak so of course she is going to make some excuse and say it CAN'T exist.

Be careful of what you think you know about psychology of this Icary's because the mind is a very interesting concept.

And if i hadn't experienced it, i would be right there with ya in the choice idea. grins and it wasn't submission, that's what you aren't seeing -- you want to place it as MY SUBMISSION, i have never spoken of MY submission, i speak of HIS mastery. There is a difference. And the concept of who actually has the control is defined by this concept.   I did not have my autonomy, the choice to leave was moot, until such time HE returned my autonomy to me and i was allowed to exercise my free will.  When you don't have your autonomy, you don't have the ability to exercise your free will, his mastery and his will is what controls you. ITS NOT A BAD OR NEGATIVE THING. Once you can accept that, you may actually find this concept i speak of to be attainable and exist for many women.

I didn't suppress anything because my submission wasn't what made the relationship or created it. In order to suppress my concept of choice, i would have had to have the ability to exerise it -- i.e., my autonomy.   His mastery wouldn't allow it.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/20/2010 9:53:38 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 138

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 10:22:36 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

All you've done here is back-peddle and attempt to turn words and meanings of words into what you need to escape the truth of a circumstance.

You've grabbed words that I intended in totally different ways and added them to a response that does in no way answer my original point. Case in point.

quote:

I didn't suppress anything because my submission wasn't what made the relationship or created it. In order to suppress my concept of choice, i would have had to have the ability to exerise it -- i.e., my autonomy. His mastery wouldn't allow it.

I used the word choice..not submission in this way. You suppressed choice.
SpaceSpank is correct about your circular arguing.

quote:

Be careful of what you think you know about psychology of this Icary's because the mind is a very interesting concept.

I do fine in this department but thanks for your concerns.

quote:

YOU HAVE MADE MY POINT of why i ask if people understand mastery. Because i do not and never did say it happened overnight OR was magical. People who understand mastery KNOW this. They know its a progress, they know that the relationship REACHES this point, just as autonomy can be returned it HAS TO BE TAKEN. I mean you speak about logic here Icary's but you didn't apply logic to what i was saying. YOU are the one who seems to have jumped to a conclusion here.

Have I, really? I've said it doesn't happen overnight..so by your assertions I am afterall Masterful!!! I will surely be able to sleep better at night now...except this poses another issue..being that I am now Masterful by your definition..I tooo should be able to speak on the concept of "No Choice"....

I couldn't help myself..I had to be a smartarse..I had no choice.

quote:

And if i hadn't experienced it, i would be right there with ya in the choice idea. grins and it wasn't submission, that's what you aren't seeing -- you want to place it as MY SUBMISSION, i have never spoken of MY submission, i speak of HIS mastery. There is a difference. And the concept of who actually has the control is defined by this concept. I did not have my autonomy, the choice to leave was moot, until such time HE returned my autonomy to me and i was allowed to exercise my free will. When you don't have your autonomy, you don't have the ability to exercise your free will, his mastery and his will is what controls you. ITS NOT A BAD OR NEGATIVE THING. Once you can accept that, you may actually find this concept i speak of to be attainable and exist for many women.

Not that my use of the word submission has anything to do with this other than I chose to use the word in a paragraph to convey something...I'll bite anyway.

What I get from this is that you've essentially said the same thing everyone else has put out..You don't have a choice till he gives you a choice..

To me that just shouts out that you had the ability the whole time.

You've made my point here on all of this. Choice isn't moot unless you choose to mute it.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 139

RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 10:58:20 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

this breakdown quoting this isn't my best skill but here goes...

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

hi,

sorry but i forgot to add the disclaimer: that not all relationships are always happy and not all relationships are joyous from the start to the end of the day. i assumed people would know me well enough to assume i already knew that. a bit sarky, sorry, but surely i didnt have to point that out.

of course i didn't think you were implying neverending happiness from moment one of slavery to year 20 either. that was a bit of sarcasm on my part as well, but i hope you got my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
in my Ms relationship there were most certainly things that were incredibly hard to come to terms with, there were things i absolutely hated, there were times when i seriously doubted my ability to do as he asked, and yet i did.

yes that's an experience most of us who've been in such dynamics can share. but, not what i meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
but with everyone it is different and with everyone there are different cut off points. some are fairly instant in the end and some take one hell of a long time to get you there and some never do, sometimes we stay irregardless of whether its healthy for us or not. sometimes it takes a catalyst, sometimes we just wake up in the morning and everything has changed inside, whether we want it to or not. at that crunch point its probably down to the Master to steer us through it and get us to the other side. and sometimes we never ever know that there is a choice because we just dont think along those lines. sometimes the relationship with its ups and downs and good and bad will always be the place we belong.

to an extent i would agree with all you've said above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
but in the final analysis maybe there is a huge difference between you and i.

it is wrong to suggest that a slave type has no business making a choice when that choice might tear her up inside and yet she knows she must make that choice.

its a bit easy for someone to say that a choice is not within the remit of a slave when that slave is in a situation that by and large suits her very well.

i am quite sure there is a huge difference between you and i, and how we have processed slavery especially. no one has suggested that a slave should not make some choice which she feels compelled to make, for whatever reason. i may question the enslavement itself, or the mastery of her Owner, or perhaps the early judgment of both parties, but not her privilege to choose.

as for your last statement there, yes i suppose that could be "easy," but your assumption has been again that every slave who speaks of this state is coming from a place of joyful content and satisfaction. your assumption is that surely they have never reached a point in their journey thus far when they have questioned, or suffered, or struggled mightily simply to endure the everyday. and it is that assumption which i find offensive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
but if you are saying that enslavement for you is a long standing misery and arduous task that you drag youreself through because you have no choice then thats a bar ill never reach. in the end we stay where we stay because we are happy and content to do so. youre avatar picture im supposing pretty much sums up the overall premis between you both. not everyone is that fortunate.

yes in many ways i am very fortunate, much more so than most. not only was i able to find my proper path in life early, but i found something i never conceived was possible for me or that i even deserved...an enduring, all-consuming, overwhelming unconditional love. but as many will tell you that last...love...often serves to make the journey of slavery that much more arduous. it's with more than a little shame i admit that without question i would be a far better slave today were it not for the fact that i am deeply in love with the One who owns me. as it is, i strive to endure and be the best i am able despite of it.

you mentioned breaking points...well just when i got to the place in my journey where i believed with complete confidence that i was beyond such a point, that i had survived the worst and come out a better and stronger slave on the other end, something "suddenly came up" which pushed me to the very edge of sanity, and at times...a few steps beyond. i told him honestly and straight out, "there is no enduring this." i let him know how i was forever shattered. He accepted this with heavy heart but at the same time refused to let me fail to accept what was now reality. He refused to let me lie to myself, to imagine and pretend all was as it ever was just so that i could go from morning into the next. that was his mastery.

but not for one single moment did the thought occur to me, i need to get away from this. i thought, at various times: i hate this, i can't bear this, this is killing me. but to leave? never. such a thought process is alien to me. to even conceive, "i wish to leave but have no choice but to stay" is alien to me. i am his...in some sense, his creation. i cannot conceive of an existence without my Creator. and surely i am far from the first owned female to have reached this place.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 140

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