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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 11:08:04 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank



And yes, I read all of the posts in this, including yours. You and daddysprop are the only 2 people in here adamantly stating that you have 0 choice whatsoever.


angel is correct, you have not been truly reading every post, because i have certainly not stated that there is "0 choice." what i do believe is that some of us reach a state of enslavement where this issue of choice is completely irrelevant, as it is beyond our capabilities to make or even conceive of such a choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank
So forgive me for replying to the more vocal of 2 people. I honestly do not mean offense, and yes you do know yourself better than I do. But that does not change that you still keep that choice. Or do you deny that if you hypothetically decided you wanted to leave and would not change your mind, that your Master has no legal way to keep you there? There is no way to deny you have that ability. Only that you would NOT use it, which is not what is being debated. We know already that you have firmly stated you would not even think of doing so.



this is an obvious statement, but surely you're aware that simply because an action is illegal, it is not impossible? in other words, a Master having no legal means to keep a slave who wishes to leave certainly does not mean that the Master cannot succeed in keeping the slave anyway. but that is rather beside the point of this particular discussion.

like angel, i tire of these discussions always going to the "extreme" place. it's the internal experience of enslavement, brought about by a skilled Master, which makes choices such as stay or leave completely beyond the realm of the slave's awareness.

(in reply to SpaceSpank)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 11:40:27 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		SpaceSpank

The point so many are trying to make is, while we know we have the physical ability, the emotional ability just isnt there to up and leave.

It took me three years after knowing my relationship was not working for me to actually be able to walk out the door.. and then i could only do so once he gave me that permission.

For another year, he still managed to keep a tight control over me until he found another.

Was i crazy or was i mastered? In my head, i knew the score. The heart was a whole nother matter.

Sometimes mastery can come without consent... and that mastery is no less binding.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SpaceSpank)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 12:02:22 PM   
SpaceSpank


Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

SpaceSpank

The point so many are trying to make is, while we know we have the physical ability, the emotional ability just isnt there to up and leave.

It took me three years after knowing my relationship was not working for me to actually be able to walk out the door.. and then i could only do so once he gave me that permission.

For another year, he still managed to keep a tight control over me until he found another.

Was i crazy or was i mastered? In my head, i knew the score. The heart was a whole nother matter.

Sometimes mastery can come without consent... and that mastery is no less binding.


No one ever said it was easy. I certainly never said it was. I also never said anyone ever HAD to make the choice, or that they ever would, they may never even know it is there. I only argued that it existed.

Plenty of situations occur where someone wants to do something, but can never bring themselves to do it. That is not up for debate, it's cold hard fact.

In response to daddysprop. Yes, just because it is illegal does not mean it does not happen. But that is why I tried to reinforce several times that I was not commenting on situations with violence or other forms of non consensual coercion. That is absolutely an entirely different debate.

*also editing*
Saying you reach a point where you feel the choice is moot or you cannot bring yourself to make it is entirely valid. But that is also not what angel is arguing. I agree with your statement, but not hers. Either way, as mentioned I am not continuing the debate with her as it is futile at this point.


< Message edited by SpaceSpank -- 11/20/2010 12:05:03 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 12:25:29 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Icarys, i have no clue what you are capable of, so whether or not you are masterful isn't the issue -- or is it?  Not for me but maybe it is for you.

I haven't backpedaled on anything.  People who have read my posts for years will tell you i am pretty consistent in what i speak about with regards to mastery.  I have no clue and really don't care if you are masterful or not.  If you would like my personal opinion about you, i will give it, but i would hate to derail the thread to speak about your ego.  However your whole paragraph based on that concept -- your being masterful, you lost me and i have no clue what you are talking about.  Icary's only you know whether or not you have ever brought a woman to the point where your mastery of her has made her live within the concept of choice being moot BECAUSE of your mastery over her and because you have choosen to TAKE and HOLD her autonomy.  OR you have been brought to such a state by someone who held you in mastery and took and held your autonomy.  In the end, if you haven't, then NO, you don't HAVE the experience to speak of it.  YOU may THINK you have the book smarts on it, but in the end, i will say it again, what you determine won't make any difference to any people who live what i speak about.  There are people who know what i speak about, there are people who can't understand it, and then there is you, people who want to say it doesn't happen.  All in all, on the grand scheme of things no one is going to run out and change their minds about things that pertain to THEM, personally.

Again, do you know what mastery is, do you know what autonomy is, do you understand the concept of choice being MOOT.  I have not said anything about i don't have a choice until he GIVES me one, i have said, the concept of choice is MOOT.  Don't put words in my mouth to somehow turn what i am saying in to a concept YOU can understand.  Have you thought that maybe you just don't NEED to understand? 

And turning my words around to suit your purposes doesn't change the fact that i say and have said all along the choice is MOOT.  That a Man can in fact master a woman to the point he takes and holds completely her autonomy, this concept makes choice moot.  Its a state she exists in whether you agree with it or not. 

And i do think your use of "your submission" is a big concept.  Not everyone thinks of slavery within the concept that leaves so much at the woman's control and say so as the slave.  SUBMISSION to me doesn't create the master/slave relationship.  In fact to me, submission has NOTHING to do with the general definition of M/s.  While submission does occur in such relationships its not the defining concept.  To me, the MASTERY is what creates and maintains the relationship.  This viewpoint puts the concept of choice and creation and maintaining of the M/s relationship SOLELY within the control and ability of the Man. To me the CHOICE is the man's and it continues to be so.  For the woman, choice is a concept that is moot when she is held in his mastery.  Her self-determination (which actually is what choice is) becomes moot and null and void on the most basic of levels.  Can she still make determinations, yes she doesn't lose her ability to reason OR her intelligence.  However, her ability to SELF-DETERMINE is no longer because she lives solely under HIS determination.

THAT is the very basic of what i speak about as to how i understand and lived M/s.  I have not said ALL people do this, i have not even said a majority, i have actually said NOT MANY PEOPLE reach this concept, and i would say that MOST people don't look at M/s based upon the mastery but instead view it the same way you do and view it based upon the submission.  To me, submission has nothing to do with a woman being held in M/s, while it does occur, its not the glue so to speak.  For many others, they see it as just the opposite that the submission IS what creates the glue. 

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 1:03:09 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

ONCE, JUST ONCE, i would love to see a discussion like this without paranoid people bringing up concepts like victims and abusers or extreme concepts like what if he tells you to murder someone.  MAYBE just maybe then, people may start understanding the concepts spoken about instead of freaking out and being all paranoid about them.  And maybe then some of the misconceptions can start being cleared up.

angel


Because it happens, and it does happen with in the concept and only the concept "Im your master you must do this"

I belonged completely to my first owner, he is the only man whos ever owned me, I still think today 6 fucking years later in some of the patterns he set out. However he set aside a task i could not complete, Submit to his will and obey him by having unprotected sex with someone who had hiv, or run as fast as humanly possible to keep him from forcing me to.

I ran. I until 3 seconds prior to that order had NO IDEA what so ever i could leave, I couldnt conceptualize it, even after I ran I still wanted to go back i still to this day wonder if I made the wrong choice.

Idiots exist all a round the world but abusive people do find a haven in this lifestyle....


And as for your law degree, Ill make a bet for you, invite a cop into your home as your master is Preforming a sadisitc act on you... the LAW will intervine and will make the "choice" you claim you dont have for you.... Hence why its ILLEGAL and its a VERY SMART IDEA to remember SLAVERY IS ILLEGAL...


_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 1:36:34 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Nods. I also think it's a thing thing, not a good thing or a bad thing. But it's certainly different! At least to me. :) Don't you do small things unthinkingly, like grabbing your coat and keys or driving the same route to work or washing yourself? Do you think about that stuff? Those things tend to become semi-unconscious for me.


Ok, I know this is going to sound strange, but no... I think through all of this stuff. "Is it cold enough for a coat, or can I get away without one today?"... "Do I need the -full- set of keys, or can I just grab the mini set with just the car and the gate key?"... "Do I want to take 610, or shall I take Shephard... or take 59 to 288"?... Seriously. I think -constantly-. One of my biggest challenges is getting to sleep at night, because my brain does not know when to frigging -shut up-. Every single thing I do is a -decision process-. Even bathing -- Shower or bath? Exfoliant or not? Lukewarm or cool?... I am aware of every single little choice over the course of a day (and acutely aware of all of the times I procrastinate, choose something I know isn't good for me, or make a choice on what I think may be too little information that may come back to bite me in the butt down the road).

I simply can't fathom -not- thinking about things... Ok... so I think maybe I think too much...

Calla


quote:



LOL! That is awesome, Calla. :D You do have an extremely active mind. I'm afraid if I tried to think about all that stuff it would give me a most fearsome headache--not to mention an frontal lobe cramp! I much prefer to drift off and let my unconscious do the heavy lifting while I... if I'm there at all... look at the bee-you-ti-ful white fluffy cloulds. :)



_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 1:44:16 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank

And yes, I read all of the posts in this, including yours. You and daddysprop are the only 2 people in here adamantly stating that you have 0 choice whatsoever. So forgive me for replying to the more vocal of 2 people. I honestly do not mean offense, and yes you do know yourself better than I do. But that does not change that you still keep that choice. Or do you deny that if you hypothetically decided you wanted to leave and would not change your mind, that your Master has no legal way to keep you there? There is no way to deny you have that ability. Only that you would NOT use it, which is not what is being debated. We know already that you have firmly stated you would not even think of doing so.

quote:



You may have read "all the posts" but you are quite clearly denying what many people are saying in them.

I have most emphatically said the same thing as angel and daddysprop are saying. So your "only 2 people" is a very silly thing to claim. And look! The 2 is now 4! Tazzy has done so as well in a recent post. And so have several other submissives in this thread whom you have purposfully chosen to ignore. So much for "reading all the posts."

Sigh. You seem to be another of those tiresome individuals who denies the vailidity of others' experiences if they don't quite match what he wishes were so. Armchair-Scholarism is not a very attractive trait in a thinker, particularly if his thoughts are not strong enough to bend reality to his will.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to SpaceSpank)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 2:12:02 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		okay NOW i am lost, what do sadistic activities have to do with slavery? 

And well yeah, we socialized with cops, i worked in the prosecutor's office.  And these cops knew i was his slave.  Yeah some of them did see me at times get my ass beat or watch me fly across the room when i got back-handed, and i was a slave to them as that was the environment my Master held me in.  A couple of them even had their own slaves.  I don't get what your point is.

My point about abuse etc and legalities etc in discussions like this is so many people focus on it that they fail to see HOW slavery and M/s can and does exist LEGALLY in our society BASED ON THE DEFINITION of the words.  I think if more people simply focused on what these words actually mean instead of how they existed with regards to legally and historically, discussions like this may get a little farther in understanding.

Abuse happens everywhere, to bring it up in a discussion like this to me is silly, because its not centralized TO M/s,  so to speak about it as an argument only brings negativity about M/s and misunderstandings and misconceptions about M/s.  Does abuse happen, yes, is it because of M/s as we can and do practice it in our society, no.  To imply that its because of M/s to me is wrong.  People should be aware of abuse, i am not saying they shouldn't, but it shouldn't be generalized and connected to M/s as an argument negatively attributed to M/s as a whole.  The concept of abuse is specific concepts that to me have nothing to do with M/s even if M/s is the dynamic.  THE PEOPLE are how abuse is attributed NOT the dynamic.  Is there abuse in the M/s dynamic, at times yes, just like its in marraiges or relationships that don't have the dynamic of M/s.  Which means THE DYNAMIC, is not the cause of the abuse and therefore, to me, has no place in discussions about M/s as this thread.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 3:20:51 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i am quite sure there is a huge difference between you and i, and how we have processed slavery especially. no one has suggested that a slave should not make some choice which she feels compelled to make, for whatever reason. i may question the enslavement itself, or the mastery of her Owner, or perhaps the early judgment of both parties, but not her privilege to choose.


Greetings daddysprop,

I've skimmed over several recent posts and find your comments resonate most with me. While I maintain that each individual will process and experience slavery in fundamentally different ways (due to a myriad of reasons from both ends of the spectrum) there comes a point where one is either enslaved or they're not. Although I don't place judgment on anyone's perception of their station, this continued insistence on autonomy in a structure meant to operate from a definitive angle of authority leaves me a little confused. I accept that there are those that enter dynamics with the expressed intention and/or need to maintain some element of individuality, control, or label such as empowerment when doing so. Although I understand it philosophically (different strokes, etc.) it contradicts the underlying element of both roles in my opinion. At least from my perspective and experiences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

but with everyone it is different and with everyone there are different cut off points.


It behooves me why there's a continued focus on cut off points, exit plans/strategies and otherworldly what if situations that may never (and probably don't come close) to anything the individual has experienced or has the possibility of undergoing save in the realm of their overactive imagination. What's really sad is the level of energy willingly expended by persons consciously acknowledging a desire to place themselves within another persons hand. The ship is seemingly damned before it ever sets sail.

quote:

yes in many ways i am very fortunate, much more so than most. not only was i able to find my proper path in life early, but i found something i never conceived was possible for me or that i even deserved...an enduring, all-consuming, overwhelming unconditional love. but as many will tell you that last...love...often serves to make the journey of slavery that much more arduous. it's with more than a little shame i admit that without question i would be a far better slave today were it not for the fact that i am deeply in love with the One who owns me. as it is, i strive to endure and be the best i am able despite of it.


I really enjoyed this portion, particular the part I've highlighted. Love can be the catalyst for greatness or your undoing. In the past it has been impressed upon me that I would serve irregardless if love was a part of the picture. Hearing those words caused me untold grief and upset. Eventually I reached the point of acceptance and came to understand what he was attempting to convey. But I'll confess, its real (deeper) meaning didn't manifest itself until years later. It is no longer a condition or requirement and I wholeheartedly believe the unconditional manifestation is far better than its carnal cousin. It is the key to going beyond my selfish wants in deference to what is greater [the union].

quote:

but not for one single moment did the thought occur to me, i need to get away from this. i thought, at various times: i hate this, i can't bear this, this is killing me. but to leave? never. such a thought process is alien to me. to even conceive, "i wish to leave but have no choice but to stay" is alien to me. i am his...in some sense, his creation. i cannot conceive of an existence without my Creator. and surely i am far from the first owned female to have reached this place.


This hearkens back on our earlier discussion and reinforces my conception of being tethered. It isn't an omission of choice in the manner most might grasp (or debate ad nauseum), it's simply an unspoken truth that one recognizes and accepts about themselves. Its become an instrumental part of your makeup, much like other things that you do and believe without great consideration. I'm not dismissing the merits of analyzing or dissecting when warranted. But as you candidly noted in the past, it really comes down to faith and whether you sincerely trust the person you've aligned yourself with in the long run.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 3:23:07 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Angel you really have made some superb points, and you and daddysprop247 have changed the way I view the concept of enslavement, and I'm thankful to you both.

Speaking for myself, the idea of having a sub who is "enslaved to me" to the extent that her sense of choice is made moot does absolutely nothing for me, and I can't deny that when I see that kind of relationship there is a part of me that finds that level of submission really kind of creepy. For me the whole rush comes from her knowing that she has a choice, but choosing to submit.

But I acknowledge that everyone's needs and wants are different, and would never be so stupid and arrogant to claim that my definition of the ideal M/s relationship is the only valid one.

I think you should also embrace this idea too, because when you say things like :

quote:


People do you remotely understand what mastery does?


You're very clearly implying that you understand "what mastery does" and the truth is, you've no more chance than a potted plant, a dalmatian, or me of establishing the absolute fundamental definition of "what mastery does" - You have a very clear idea what "mastery does to/for you" and your definition may well align with the definition that others have but don't know what it "does" in the context of my relationships, and by yelling (which - as you very very well know - your abundant use of caps implies) you leave yourself open to people concluding that you're trying to self-justify something rather than simply making a point.

It should be clear that there are some people who take a very literal and rational view of "enslavement" and "choice", if they're unwilling to embrace the idea that "rationality" is only one component of being in a relationship then you're never going to convince them - no matter how many times you yell or seek to imply that they're stupid.

I'm not going to ask you if you're smart enough to acknowledge that a purely rational view of "enslavement" and "choice" means that the concept of "no choice" without some form of coercion is nonsense from a purely rational perspective, because you're obviously smart enough to know that. Denying it would be silly.

What you and daddysprop247 have been able to do, is to make me think more carefully about "enslavement" and "choice" in the context of a relationship, where the purely rational can be (and often is) overruled by the irrational. Irrationality isn't a weakness necessarily (although it can be), it's just that extra thing that sits there and has a very powerful effect on how we perceive our choices and exercise our autonomy.

The level of mastery/enslavement you talk about is very rare, and in some cases it's a powerfully wonderful thing. I get the impression that daddysprop247 has found it in her relationship, and that you had it in the relationship you describe.

But the "power" of that level of mastery/enslavement dynamic isn't always positive. There are also mastery/enslavement relationships that aren't powerfully wonderful - they're horrid and brutal. Take the battered wife (or husband) who "stays" despite the hurt and the violence. On a rational level, you could say "well they knew where the door was, why the fuck didn't they leave?" - but experience tells us that leaving is often not a "choice" for these people.

When this question comes up again, as I'm certain it will, I'll be posting strongly along the lines that you and daddysprop247 have argued - but in doing so I'll be careful not to accuse people of not understanding "what mastery is" - instead I'll be out there explaining that there are all sorts of "mastery", some of which imply a kind of mastery and a kind of submission where - as you quite rightly say "choice is moot".



_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 3:25:06 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Coming in really late to the discussion and I haven't read past page one...
I identify as his slave and yet I make choices every day.
Granted, those choices are based on him making it clear to me that I'm an extension of him in what I do and say.
(Thank God he's a sarcastic ass).
I've come to realize in the two and a half years that I've been with him that the one thing I don't have a choice in in this relationship
is the ability to leave him ever, no matter what the circumstances are. If it ends, it ends because he wants it to end.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 3:50:58 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

No one ever said it was easy. I certainly never said it was. I also never said anyone ever HAD to make the choice, or that they ever would, they may never even know it is there. I only argued that it existed.

This.
The concept of no choice is all I've been going at myself.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/20/2010 3:54:22 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		A lot of this is just ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. Especially the part about my ability to Master when of course that wasn't the context in which I was speaking about.

Keep dancing though.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/21/2010 5:49:21 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		i completely and totally respect where daddysprop is coming from absolutely - but i have to say that enslavement occurs up and down the spectrum.  relationships hold together purely and simply because there is no conceptualising of ending it.  in the end it takes two to make a thing hold together and when both are pulling together when things get tough thats when you have a relationship that will not break down if the two people involved are determined for it not to.

daddysprop you spoke about a thing that took you to breaking point and then you went on to say that youre Master, from what i can make out, took the time to understand youre problem whilst still enforcing the change that was bringing you to breaking point.  from my perspective THE most important aspect to all of this from a submissive/slaves point of view is that they are understood and their feelings are given validity.  it is when they are not understood and their feelings are not given validity that the issue grows and widens the gap between both people.

my capacity to stay in a bad situation is phenomenal to be honest, but im no different to many people in that regard.  ive been in seriously abusive vanilla relationships and stayed put because the option to leave simply didnt conceptualise in my head.  it took a massive catalyst to get me out of one (he tried to push me over an eleven story balcony) and in another it was my family that pulled me out. 

enslavement is not specific to Ms.

what is specific to Ms is the degree of understanding that goes on between the two people involved.  the submission of the slave and the dominance of the Master, a symbiosis that bonds them.

what i think sometimes confuses the issue is that submissives are patently given the opportunity of choice and the opportunity to act on that choice.  for a slave they may have a choice but it is their Master that makes the final decision on that choice.

in my situation i asked for release and i was given it.  had he said no, i wouldnt have left.

did that make me a submissive rather than a slave - i have no idea to be honest, and i dont care much.  for me the criteria for healthy and ongoing submission to a Master is in having the faith, trust and respect to continue and when those aspects have gone and he makes no effort to rectify the situation its really no longer a question of choice and rather more a situation of not having any choice left open.

in the end the tennet of my relationship was Ms.  i was slave to him and my enslavement continued long after i left him.  it took me two long years to break away emotionally.  it wasnt the aspect of choice or no choice that made us Ms, it was the structure we lived under and the acceptance of his absolute control over me.

choice, for me anyway, has bugger all to do with it.  it was what we shared and how we shared it that made it so wonderful for the time that it worked so well, even during the tough times when i cried myself to sleep my enslavement to him was what held me there because i loved him more than any man i have ever loved.



< Message edited by lally2 -- 11/21/2010 5:58:38 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/21/2010 8:06:16 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

i completely and totally respect where daddysprop is coming from absolutely - but i have to say that enslavement occurs up and down the spectrum. relationships hold together purely and simply because there is no conceptualising of ending it. in the end it takes two to make a thing hold together and when both are pulling together when things get tough thats when you have a relationship that will not break down if the two people involved are determined for it not to.

daddysprop you spoke about a thing that took you to breaking point and then you went on to say that youre Master, from what i can make out, took the time to understand youre problem whilst still enforcing the change that was bringing you to breaking point. from my perspective THE most important aspect to all of this from a submissive/slaves point of view is that they are understood and their feelings are given validity. it is when they are not understood and their feelings are not given validity that the issue grows and widens the gap between both people.

You are wise beyond your many many years.

I respect prop as well..her words bring me back to at least one relationship and the fond memories I'll carry for the rest of my life. They also mirror a relationship I'm searching for again and have been for some time...I was spoiled a bit by her, both emotionally and physically and I refuse to settle for less than the best the next can offer. She wasn't the only one that has graced my life though.

I think a lot of us have been to that place through our devotion to another...I know I have on a few occasions..I know the women I've loved have as well..It's unmistakable when it happens..no matter the type of devotional road you've traveled to get there.



_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/23/2010 2:06:20 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
You are wise beyond your many many years.




(turbo charges zimmer and runs Icarys over with it:)  bloomin' cheek

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/23/2010 3:31:21 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		-FR-

The interesting thing is that I'd guess most people who identify as a "slave" were interested in that from the start, either slavery, or D/s, or a male/female-led relationship, or whatever they considered it to be. So you can't really say they don't have a choice if it's a lifestyle they sought out...they choose to stay because they are satisfied in the relationship. The funny thing to me is that when a "slave" does leave the relationship they say it's because they're "no longer mastered" - when IMO what they really mean is they're no longer satisfied.

By satisfied I don't mean that everything is perfect, just that there's enough to keep them there. Same with abusive relationships IMO...I was in an "abusive" sort of relationship for like a week. The guy started going off at the smallest thing and calling me obsessively to see where I was, the last straw was when I went to a club with friends and he just showed up outside and called me and told me to come out...I sent one of my guy friends in my place to tell him it was over.

Anyone who stays in a relationship thinks it's okay on some level. I think it's incredibly weak to say you "don't have a choice" in your relationship. You do have a choice. You might be too weak to make a choice, but that doesn't mean you don't have one. If anything it just means that you've made the choice to accept whatever life throws your way, choosing to be passive so to speak. Not every choice has to involve actively doing something, but refusing to acknowledge that you do have a choice is a choice.

9 times out of 10 the person saying "I don't have a choice" is happy in their relationship. So they're making the normal choice - to stay in a relationship that makes them happy.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/23/2010 9:30:33 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
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quote:

Porcelaine said:
It behooves me why there's a continued focus on cut off points, exit plans/strategies and otherworldly what if situations that may never (and probably don't come close) to anything the individual has experienced or has the possibility of undergoing save in the realm of their overactive imagination. What's really sad is the level of energy willingly expended by persons consciously acknowledging a desire to place themselves within another persons hand. The ship is seemingly damned before it ever sets sail.

Amen! I have to say that as I read this thread, I am very, very glad that none of it really applies to Carol and I. To read this, you'd think that we ought to be in some sort of adversarial contest with each other. Presumably, my goal is to see how abusive I can become to her before she leaves since that will provide the measure of my dominance. Her goal, I gather, is to see how little she can submit without pissing me off.

We don't think that way. Carol and I spend a lot more time thinking about what we can give to the relationship than what we can take from it.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/23/2010 8:10:23 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I have never gotten the escape hatch mentality.  It is rampant in relationships of all kinds currently.  I am not looking for a way out of my commitments.  I look for ways to honor them instead.  Escape is a worst case senario and one that inherently should be difficult and require me to really want out badly enough to endure the consequences of even attempting.  Anything else reeks of human consumerism and I am not a fan of treating any person as disposable. 

Choice isn't even the issue here.  It is the integrity and capacity for intimacy of the individuals on trial.  Getting out as a final gasp for survival is far different than simply leaving the door surrounded in blinking red lights and wide open for the taking.  There is no choice involved when it comes time to free oneself from an abusive relationship.  I've been there and I know.  It is the ONLY "choice" that ensures survival.  So the only question is whether or not one has reached that point and that decision is made on a dime because there isn't time to sit and weigh the options.  It is now or it is death and it is really that simple. 

Again, my job is to keep the kind of company from which I would want major influences in my life to rise.  It is also my job to be as healthy and whole as a person myself as possible.  In other words, we can leapfrog all this nonsense by simply making good decision and using self discipline.  I don't have to worry about being abused by a quality partner.  I don't have to worry about being susceptible to an abusive partner by making sure I am healthy enough to tell the difference and self comfort in the absence of a significant other.  Self responsibility on the front end saves a lot of trauma and confusion on the back end. 

Do I really think life is this cut and dried?  Nope.  It is pretty close to it though.  No person deserves to be abused.  Not every situation that requires and full and immediate escape has to do with physical harm or death.  Still there is something to be said for working through and keeping on through dark times.  It gives birth to greater intimacy and a stronger relationship.  Persevering has so much to offer those willing to take the hard road.  That is a choice too.  It's just not the kind of choice that looks like freedom to many.  To the few who have walked the road, however, they know differently.

lovingpet 


_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Choice As A Slave - 11/23/2010 8:24:34 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Anyone who stays in a relationship thinks it's okay on some level. I think it's incredibly weak to say you "don't have a choice" in your relationship. You do have a choice. You might be too weak to make a choice, but that doesn't mean you don't have one. If anything it just means that you've made the choice to accept whatever life throws your way, choosing to be passive so to speak. Not every choice has to involve actively doing something, but refusing to acknowledge that you do have a choice is a choice.

9 times out of 10 the person saying "I don't have a choice" is happy in their relationship. So they're making the normal choice - to stay in a relationship that makes them happy.


There's a good amount of truth in what you say, but I still don't think it goes quite far enough. "Too weak to..." isn't the only alternative. Take the last instance you mention: a person saying they don't have a choice who is happy in their relationship, so they're making the normal choice. Maybe. For some it could well be that way. But sometimes people in that situation aren't given a choice to think anything else about their relationship except that they are happy, whatever else may be going on it. You can't downplay the role of mental conditioning in this. Or maybe you can. But I can't. :/ See, to me, if it doesn't occur to you that you have a choice, then that's the same as having no choice. This happens in non-bdsm areas, too, obviously. There are no end to the mental traps people can find themselves ensnared in. "The world," as Brecht once said at the end of a tale about turning someone into someone else entirely, "is a dangerous place."

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"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to Elisabella)
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