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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:17:40 AM   
RapierFugue


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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just so everyone knows, the Patriot Guard is open to anyone who wishes to join them.  You don't need to own a bike.  Its really a great group and its dedication to allow troops to be buried without the family being upset by these assholes is awesome and very emotional.  It doesn't cost anything to join, just your time when you can.  And they are all over the country.  So look them up if you are interested.


We don't have free speech in the UK - quite the reverse. I can think of definitely two, and possibly three, laws that the Westboro Baptist “Church” folk would run into if they tried it here, which I oddly find rather sad. We don’t even have the right to free assembly anymore, not since Thatcher (and subsequent governments have further eroded our rights).

I do like the idea of people finding a non-violent solution (the PGR) to such nasty-minded hatred as the WBC though. That’s something to be proud of. Any fool can pick up a shotgun and start shooting but to drown them out, legally, and marshal an event peacefully, is a bigger challenge, so fair play to them.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:19:41 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I agree that the bikers got it right.


(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:24:03 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I suppose it is very easy to deal with the mad mullah of the Westboro mob, deny them media coverage then let the battle between good and evil ensue, if good always wins in the end, it will be a triumph over evil.

I am understanding evil to be the minority and good to be the majority because I believe the majority of US citizens to be decent and good people.

In other words, when does freedom of speech become a call for war, stamp out the evil in your midst, then look for any other if it becomes a problem to you.



That thinking starts one down a dark and very dangerous path - as soon as you start using evil to fight evil you start swimming in their gutter, and they've effectively won, in turning decent people into vigilantes.

Better by far to do what these PGR folk are doing and peacefully assert their right to counter-demonstrate, while using their compassion and reason to assist the families of the bereaved in their time of greatest suffering. I even forgive them the mortal sin of riding Harleys for that

Fair play to them.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:32:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths


These people never cease to flabbergast me.

While I'm not an advocate of violent domestic solutions, I admit I have to take a breath sometimes and step back with these turds.

Viva la Patriot Riders! Calm, balanced, considerate, effective. Now THOSE people I admire.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/20/2010 7:34:28 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:35:02 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

People are always talking about how there is no evidence of God well.... there may not be evidence of God but there sure is of the devil. There has to be a greater power that is controlling these people and their children...if not.. then what does this say about the human mind and its capacity for pure hate and evil.

Butch


I think you just answered your own question.



Rule...I don't see this hate in those around me... I don't see this hate in any people in any country I have visited... It seems to be in only a very few people so I don't believe it reflects a capacity in all our minds. Certainly not in mine...how about you. So I tend to believe there is a devil and he is at work in that church...at least I hope this is true.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:37:17 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
I watched Theroux's documentary, I have to say I'm impressed with the dexterity of their support base, I'd expected severe problems on the part of that head woman (the ex-lawyer) in motivating her younger members, but they seem to be just more "girly" versions of her.


There were a couple of sequences though when one or more of the children started to baulk at what they were told, especially when questioned by Louis. I'm hopeful they'll one day break free of the cycle of despite and bullshit and make their own way in the world. One can but hope.


True, but that is my hope for ALL children. We're all subjects of conditioning, both subtle and overt, both to positive and negative effects. Best to see the world for what it truly is, rather than what we think everyone else "knows" it is.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
But, this is the price we pay for freedom of speech and expression. And loathesome though it is, it is nonetheless a very small price indeed.


I don't think you'd find it a "small" price if it were your family's funeral they decided to "protest" at.


Well, first of all nobody in my family would ever, ever have contemplated joining the military, have no fear of that. Secondly, if the WBC threatened to turn up, yes of course I'd be pissed off, but let's just say I know people who know people with lots of brawn and lots of brain.

quote:

But yes, overall I do think it's a price worth paying; freedom of speech and expression mean that for everyone, not just those that the majority agree with.


I've often thought we should have some kind of "Anti-Majority Commission", in the same style as an 'Anti-Monopolies-Commission', not actively denigrating whatever the majority is, but purely for the protection of the few from the many - whoever the few/many, or whatever their lines of division, happen to be.

quote:

I do like the non-violent response of those other biking chaps though - it's non-violent and it makes the point, while helping to shield the mourners, so fair play to them.


Likewise, I silently applaud their actions, but the fact is many or most of them are ex-military, so any praise I have for them will only ever be muted.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
On an aside, I find it mildly comical that Louis himself, as an investigator of all things fringe, is coincidentally a little bit of a weirdo himself.


To be fair, he is a tad odd. But then I don't see that as a bad thing, personally.


Likewise.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:39:43 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So I tend to believe there is a devil and he is at work in that church...at least I hope this is true.


Pinning their despicable behaviour on their imaginary friends is letting them off the hook - the members of the GBC did this; human beings, not some bogeyman from before the age of enlightenment.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:43:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its already becoming a war. The only thing missing the first casualty.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:45:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So I tend to believe there is a devil and he is at work in that church...at least I hope this is true.


Pinning their despicable behaviour on their imaginary friends is letting them off the hook - the members of the GBC did this; human beings, not some bogeyman from before the age of enlightenment.


Agreed! As i would not allow someone to use the defense of religion to get away with a crime, i wouldnt allow the use of the devil to do so either.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:49:03 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Well, first of all nobody in my family would ever, ever have contemplated joining the military, have no fear of that. Secondly, if the WBC threatened to turn up, yes of course I'd be pissed off, but let's just say I know people who know people with lots of brawn and lots of brain.


Firstly, these mourners (and the deceased) were nothing to do with the military - the WBC (if you read the article and watch the video) have got a cob-on with the people of Oklahoma in general, not just Military folk. Sorry, but your usual obsession won't play on this one.

Secondly, if I read you correctly, you're proposing to counter an expression of free speech with violence, which in my eyes makes you no better (indeed, somewhat worse) than the WBC. Or you're merely going to have something like the bikers, but have a "no-one who has been in the military can be in our gang" clause, which strikes me as hugely childish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
I've often thought we should have some kind of "Anti-Majority Commission", in the same style as an 'Anti-Monopolies-Commission', not actively denigrating whatever the majority is, but purely for the protection of the few from the many - whoever the few/many, or whatever their lines of division, happen to be.


I'd rather we in the UK had a Constitution which enshrined the rights of all, in the way the US did all those years ago. Commissions and committees are all too prone to political interference and lack of common sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Likewise, I silently applaud their actions, but the fact is many or most of them are ex-military, so any praise I have for them will only ever be muted.


You're acting more and more like a small, leg-humping dog. Are you actually saying that anyone who is, or has ever been, in any military organisation, is individually and personally evil?

(in reply to Jaybeee)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:50:10 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just so everyone knows, the Patriot Guard is open to anyone who wishes to join them.  You don't need to own a bike.  Its really a great group and its dedication to allow troops to be buried without the family being upset by these assholes is awesome and very emotional.  It doesn't cost anything to join, just your time when you can.  And they are all over the country.  So look them up if you are interested.


I thought I just posted that, but OK.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:53:09 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just so everyone knows, the Patriot Guard is open to anyone who wishes to join them.  You don't need to own a bike.  Its really a great group and its dedication to allow troops to be buried without the family being upset by these assholes is awesome and very emotional.  It doesn't cost anything to join, just your time when you can.  And they are all over the country.  So look them up if you are interested.


We don't have free speech in the UK - quite the reverse. I can think of definitely two, and possibly three, laws that the Westboro Baptist “Church” folk would run into if they tried it here, which I oddly find rather sad. We don’t even have the right to free assembly anymore, not since Thatcher (and subsequent governments have further eroded our rights).


The quest to abolish constitutional rights is insidious.  They never stop.

Despite that- I think what they do is harassment and stalking.     



(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 7:59:54 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Just so everyone knows, the Patriot Guard is open to anyone who wishes to join them.  You don't need to own a bike.  Its really a great group and its dedication to allow troops to be buried without the family being upset by these assholes is awesome and very emotional.  It doesn't cost anything to join, just your time when you can.  And they are all over the country.  So look them up if you are interested.


We don't have free speech in the UK - quite the reverse. I can think of definitely two, and possibly three, laws that the Westboro Baptist “Church” folk would run into if they tried it here, which I oddly find rather sad. We don’t even have the right to free assembly anymore, not since Thatcher (and subsequent governments have further eroded our rights).


The quest to abolish constitutional rights is insidious.  They never stop.


But at least, with a written and enshrined constitution, you have a marker; a point from which someone has to actively change something. When it's all just Statute and convention, as in the UK, you've got no "rights" (none whatsoever) to start from, and everything else you're "allowed" stems from whatever the government of the day deign to gift you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Despite that- I think what they do is harassment and stalking.     


Oh I agree - I'd go further, and say it's despicable behaviour. However, (also I said before, so apologies for repeating myself), you either believe in freedom of speech and expression, or you don't. If you do (and I do) you accept that sometimes the opinions being expressed (and the methods by which they are expressed) are going to be ones you find personally reprehensible. What I like about this situation is that the PGR have provided a non-violent, legal, and moral response, without removing anyone else's rights in so doing.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:04:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Rap, that is a compelling view from you,  (being in the UK)

Something to ponder for sure.

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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:32:00 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Personally, I am eagerly awaiting the first time the WBC protests at the funeral of a relative of a true 1%er Biker Gang.

Pagans, Hells Angels, Outlaws, Ghost Riders, Iron Horsemen, etc.

The problem will be solved.

I might then take a trip to topeka and hold a sign at the mad mulla's funeral.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:40:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		He is insane... but rarely are the insane actually that stupid. They tend to be more methodical... and he is definitely not angling to get more than press releases and stir up bs.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:43:46 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		A side note. WBC is a bunch of chickenshits.

They have planned protests twice in TN at soldier's funerals (the most recent about 20 miles from here).

Both times, the sight of a few thousand pissed off rednecks that love their troops caused them to quietly check out of their motel and head back west.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:46:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Of course they left. They want to be the center of attention in the media for their protests. They dont want to be in a center for medical attention.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 8:57:53 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So I tend to believe there is a devil and he is at work in that church...at least I hope this is true.


Pinning their despicable behaviour on their imaginary friends is letting them off the hook - the members of the GBC did this; human beings, not some bogeyman from before the age of enlightenment.


So you would not let the brainwashed children off the hook either ...and if children can be brainwashed you think it impossible that adults can't be as well? I'll believe in my bogeymen you believe in yours… either is no less powerful.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 9:00:36 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

A side note. WBC is a bunch of chickenshits.

They have planned protests twice in TN at soldier's funerals (the most recent about 20 miles from here).

Both times, the sight of a few thousand pissed off rednecks that love their troops caused them to quietly check out of their motel and head back west.


I never go anywhere-- but if they were 20 miles from here I would.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 40
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