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RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 9:53:55 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue




That’s got nothing to do with “the devil” (woooo! Spooky!), and everything to do with the evil that human beings do, then try to pin on something else, so they don't have to take personal responsibility for their actions.


Mine is not a “bogeyman”; it’s a simple understanding that some human beings are evil, some are insane, and some are a combination of both.



The devil...evil...call it what you like I'll call it what I like... they are the same...and yes it is spooky

So are you for the punishment of the truly insane? You see I believe the majority of these people can and should be forgiven. Remember, if you are old enough, the brainwashing of our service men in the Korean war... should they not of been forgiven as well?

Their actions should not be forgiven but some of the men women and children themselves should, they have been brainwashed, bullied, and forced.

But of course it could never happen to you.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/20/2010 9:55:48 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 9:58:16 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those are pretty much my views about atheism. However, i do not paint you all with the same brush. Why you feel the need to do so with those who hold a religious view is beyond me.

quote:

Or, alternatively, the message is wrong because it preaches adherence to dogma, not enlightenment, and operates through a culture of fear and misinformation, as almost all religions do.


Is what Phelps is preaching dogma? Many churches and religions accept homosexuals, embrace them in fact. Have you ever seen me speak out against homosexuality?

You speak of enlightenment... where is your own?


Ah, so your version of the dogma is better than their version of the dogma. That's great news. What progress!

Now maybe in a few more years people will be able to do without any of the dogmas, and instead concentrate on simply living better and more enjoyable lives? We can but hope.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:00:32 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


You're right they're not - just looked again at some pics and you're absolutely right.

Nice to know at least a few of them will be able to make it home without breaking down



This may help with your Japanese problem:

Motorcycle Breakdown Cover - Motorbike Roadside Recovery


Except, as I've demonstrated several times, the Japanese bikes are by far the more reliable of the 2 types. And I've worked extensively on both. Don't even get me started on Harley electrics. If you look at the breakdown company stats for Harleys vs Japanese bikes in the UK you’ll find Harleys are much, much more likely to let you down.

See here, for example (and these are from the owner's own mouths):

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/2004-09-08101210MWEBMP.htm

The last big group tour we did there were many more Japanese bikes than anything else, but the only breakdowns were 1 Harley, 1 Buell (Harley engine), and a Ducati. Although the Ducati was just a fuse. We even managed to patch up the Buell so it could continue. But the Harley was a basket-case; the bottom end decided it no longer wanted to hide away in the dark, with only a badly machined crankshaft for company, but should instead break out and see something of the world. The results were ... messy.

Let's not do this one again eh? You just accept you’re wrong, sit there in your wrong-ness, and we'll let the rest of them debate the evils of the WBC



Naw. I can't let this nonsense go without debate, but like I offered before let's move it back to the motorcycle thread so we don't keep hijacking other threads.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:07:15 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue




That’s got nothing to do with “the devil” (woooo! Spooky!), and everything to do with the evil that human beings do, then try to pin on something else, so they don't have to take personal responsibility for their actions.


Mine is not a “bogeyman”; it’s a simple understanding that some human beings are evil, some are insane, and some are a combination of both.



The devil...evil...call it what you like I'll call it what I like... they are the same...and yes it is spooky

So are you for the punishment of the truly insane? You see I believe the majority of these people can and should be forgiven. Remember, if you are old enough, the brainwashing of our service men in the Korean war... should they not of been forgiven as well?

Their actions should not be forgiven but some of the men women and children themselves should, they have been brainwashed, bullied, and forced.

But of course it could never happen to you.


1. It’s not spooky, it’s a myth.

2. The truly insane should not be “punished”. What they do need, in extreme cases, is incarceration for their own, and others’ safety. And treatment. Lots and lots of treatment.

3. One can certainly forgive the insane because it’s not their fault their brains are dysfunctional. But their brains are that way because of nature, sometimes nurture, and often both. What they’re not is being messed with by a demon with horns and a forked tail.

4. It’s not a question of forgiving the brainwashed, it’s a question of getting them to accept their actions, though wrong, were not their entire fault, and to show them how they were manipulated by other people, so they can break that programming. Note brainwashed by people, not some big red myth with cloven hooves.

5. Of course it could happen to me. It could happen to anyone, with enough time in that environment, enforced medication, and programming.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:10:49 AM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I stand by my statements.
Look at the history of "mainstream" religion and what it has done/is doing to this country:
The dumbing-down of science programs in schools, the crippling of research aimed at curing disease, interferring with a woman's most personal of decisions, promoting hatred of and violence toward gays, etc, etc, etc.

WBC is only one of the more vocal examples.

There is absolutely no defense for religion. No self-thinking, non-delusional person can in any way, shape, or form justify a believe in fairy tales.

To paraphrase another posters sig: we would be 100's of years further advanced without religion.

Aynne: I don't reserve my bashing to x-stainers - I'm an equal-opportunity relig-tard basher.

~Dave


_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:10:52 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Naw. I can't let this nonsense go without debate


Well you're going to have to, coz you're wrong, I've proved you and others wrong (several times), have the experience of working on both to know what the true situation is, and just enough wisdom to know when I'm banging my head against a brick wall

So, much as with the theists and god thing, you can believe whatever you choose to, and I’ll believe my experience and the empirical data.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:11:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those are pretty much my views about atheism. However, i do not paint you all with the same brush. Why you feel the need to do so with those who hold a religious view is beyond me.

quote:

Or, alternatively, the message is wrong because it preaches adherence to dogma, not enlightenment, and operates through a culture of fear and misinformation, as almost all religions do.


Is what Phelps is preaching dogma? Many churches and religions accept homosexuals, embrace them in fact. Have you ever seen me speak out against homosexuality?

You speak of enlightenment... where is your own?


Let's try to face facts here, the vast majority of churches and religions absolutely do not accept homosexuals.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

Has a great chart that may open your eyes rule.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:15:09 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those are pretty much my views about atheism. However, i do not paint you all with the same brush. Why you feel the need to do so with those who hold a religious view is beyond me.

quote:

Or, alternatively, the message is wrong because it preaches adherence to dogma, not enlightenment, and operates through a culture of fear and misinformation, as almost all religions do.


Is what Phelps is preaching dogma? Many churches and religions accept homosexuals, embrace them in fact. Have you ever seen me speak out against homosexuality?

You speak of enlightenment... where is your own?


Let's try to face facts here, the vast majority of churches and religions absolutely do not accept homosexuals.



And recently some folk have even switched faiths (from one branch of Christianity to another) when their original branch started to show tolerance towards homosexuals.

That really amused me.

"Our God is better than your God! ... What? We're not burning gays anymore? Ok, change of plan guys - their God is better than our God!"

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:16:58 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those are pretty much my views about atheism. However, i do not paint you all with the same brush. Why you feel the need to do so with those who hold a religious view is beyond me.

quote:

Or, alternatively, the message is wrong because it preaches adherence to dogma, not enlightenment, and operates through a culture of fear and misinformation, as almost all religions do.


Is what Phelps is preaching dogma? Many churches and religions accept homosexuals, embrace them in fact. Have you ever seen me speak out against homosexuality?

You speak of enlightenment... where is your own?


Let's try to face facts here, the vast majority of churches and religions absolutely do not accept homosexuals.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

Has a great chart that may open your eyes rule.


<happy dance>

Can we do women priests now?! Can we?!

(er ... "do" in this context meaning discuss, obviously - I wasn't suggesting ... er ... let's just leave it there shall we?)

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 11/20/2010 10:18:00 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:17:56 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Ah, so your version of the dogma is better than their version of the dogma. That's great news. What progress!

Now maybe in a few more years people will be able to do without any of the dogmas, and instead concentrate on simply living better and more enjoyable lives? We can but hope.


You are assuming i have a dogma... lol... please dont assume.

But, in all honesty, what i see is many atheists living in the past... the history of what was, instead of what is.

But, you didnt answer my questions. Where is your enlightenment in the issue of religion when you paint everyone with the same brush?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:19:54 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Can we do women priests now?! Can we?!


Sure, when you come to the point of enlightenment that not all religions have priests.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:25:03 AM   
Jaybeee


Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

You're acting more and more like a small, leg-humping dog.


Stop right there. I seem to remember telling you the other day we weren't yet at friendly insults stage, which is why I'm going to refrain from telling you what an oversensitive little drama queen you seem.

Now I'm going to assume you're once again just trying to evoke emotion (for whatever reason). My views on the military are exactly that - MINE. You want to discuss them, fine, but you will do it dispassionately and with a level of respect that I set - or there won't be any respect at all.

I don't have the time or inclination for any other standard.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:25:55 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Don't you find it ironical that your hate for religion and their hate for homosexuals sounds just the same... Go back and read what words you have used to enforce your beliefs... They are much the same as used by the WBC.

Bottom line is you are no better than those you rant against.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:26:04 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Ah, so your version of the dogma is better than their version of the dogma. That's great news. What progress!

Now maybe in a few more years people will be able to do without any of the dogmas, and instead concentrate on simply living better and more enjoyable lives? We can but hope.


You are assuming i have a dogma... lol... please dont assume.

But, in all honesty, what i see is many atheists living in the past... the history of what was, instead of what is.


Anyone who follows a religion follows dogma. Think how recent has been the softening of line on things like acceptance of gays, for example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But, you didnt answer my questions. Where is your enlightenment in the issue of religion when you paint everyone with the same brush?


Because I'm not interested in explaining the many and varied holes in the "there is a God" argument, and getting into what would doubtless be a frustrating and annoying punch-up, knowing full well in advance that, at the end of it, you'd not have changed your mind, nor I mine. It's wasted effort. Now you're more than welcome to run around the room screaming "I win! I win!" if that makes you feel any better, but it's just not my thing to try where there's zero chance that the other side are going to see reason and/or enlightenment. It's not why I read CM boards, for a start.

As I say, you're more than welcome to believe whatever you choose, so long as it doesn't impact my life (which I'm fairly certain it doesn't). Where I will comment is where religion does negatively impact others, as in this case (the WBC situation, I mean).

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:28:11 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And recently some folk have even switched faiths (from one branch of Christianity to another) when their original branch started to show tolerance towards homosexuals.

That really amused me.

"Our God is better than your God! ... What? We're not burning gays anymore? Ok, change of plan guys - their God is better than our God!"


Its not an acceptance of my god is better than your god. Again, your lack of enlightenment is showing. Its a rejection of the teachings of that church specifically, teachings by a very human leadership that they, the religious person, does not agree with based upon their own understanding.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:28:52 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Don't you find it ironical that your hate for religion


Excuse me, but I most certainly do NOT "hate" religion, as I've stated many times previously.

And I am most certainly better than those of the WBC who I have commented on.

(Apologies if you were replying to someone else)


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:31:46 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Anyone who follows a religion follows dogma. Think how recent has been the softening of line on things like acceptance of gays, for example.


Please, how long has the Catholic Church advocated the non-use of birth control... and how long have its parisioners used it? Just because someone in the church makes a "belief" doesnt mean everyone follows blindly.

The softening line as you put it is my exact example of an age of enlightenment for many religions.

quote:

As I say, you're more than welcome to believe whatever you choose, so long as it doesn't impact my life (which I'm fairly certain it doesn't). Where I will comment is where religion does negatively impact others, as in this case (the WBC situation, I mean)


And yet fail to admit that many religions have come out against the nut case while you still attempt to color all religions using Phelps brush... very enlightened of you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:33:29 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		That is one of the things that irritates me about Christianity, the belief that personal wrongs are influenced by external forces, and one of the reasons I fled the catholic church. You see when the devout make mention of devils demons and angels they are absolving themselves of blame, so it stands that a lunatic preacher like the mad mullah of Westboro can do what he wants and then blame whichever polarity of deity that fits his purpose the best.

Now it may come to pass that this nutjob does something very illegal and when caught what can he say, as a preacher and no doubt a devout believer, he can say he was doing the work of god or the devil made him do it, that being what would be the outcome at trial in a nation of similarly devout believers in the same god. I believe the same exists within Islam, religion takes presedence over the civil laws when and where they apply.

But with this fringe looney and his last protest against Islam he is in his actions saying he holds the same rights as those he despises.

Personally I just do not know why the US administration is putting up with this dangerous fool for he is obvious to the world at large and thought to be an embarassment and even a hindrance to any works towards peace and understanding between the cultures.

But as to my thoughts of quietly taking him out back and giving him an education, I still believe old methods work best, as as soon as you involve authority, legislation has a habit of being a big hammer that hits even those that are not a problem, why reduce your personal freedoms any more, just go and ask the protesters to demonstrate their constitutional right more quietly and have some respect for the dead as any decent human has, but if violence should break out, no guns or weapons of any description just a good old fashioned meeting of people, the protesters will soon get fed up with their medical bill increasing wherever they go. But as soon as someone uses a weapon, then the law they have broken and criminals they are.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:34:19 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

You're acting more and more like a small, leg-humping dog.


Stop right there. I seem to remember telling you the other day we weren't yet at friendly insults stage, which is why I'm going to refrain from telling you what an oversensitive little drama queen you seem.

Now I'm going to assume you're once again just trying to evoke emotion (for whatever reason). My views on the military are exactly that - MINE. You want to discuss them, fine, but you will do it dispassionately and with a level of respect that I set - or there won't be any respect at all.

I don't have the time or inclination for any other standard.


That was my friendly, polite, slightly amusing way of telling you you're coming over like a stuck record. What, if anything, you choose to do about that is up to you. Now of course you're not interested in that, as you like to get an anti-military comment in wherever you can, but it's my right to point out how that comes across.

As for the rest of your tirade*, I’ll speak as I choose, and you can do the same – issuing orders to me is a) pointless, b) counter-productive (coz it’s just irritating to me) and c) somewhat ironic.

* it's not actually "refraining" if you then say exactly what you claimed you weren't going to. But hey, you knew that, right?

(in reply to Jaybeee)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Westboro Baptist Church Cheers Child Deaths - 11/20/2010 10:38:12 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet fail to admit that many religions have come out against the nut case


Oh well in that case that's fine then. Other religions other than the WBC do no harm to anyone. Super. Glad we got that one sorted out.

Like I said, there's absolutely no point talking about it. You've got your views, I've got mine, and that's pretty much that. But hey, the moment we both die we'll both know who was right, eh?*

* well I suppose technically we won't if I'm right, coz we'll just be dead, but you get the drift.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 80
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