RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/27/2010 4:57:23 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you're sticking to your hypocritical guilt by association claims despite teh hypocrisy of it being made clear to you. So much for your repeated claims of open and fair mindedness.

Fish. Barrel.

1. I've not claimed that ACORN is guilty of anything in this thread, although I have admitted that my own biases find it difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.

2. I've asked questions on the subject, to get others' input, and see if there are any points, or information that I should take into account before I actually make an operative decision on the issue.

3. I've made no claims that I remember, of "open and fair mindedness" in this thread, I'm sure. In fact, I think I'm one of the few who understands that I have biases, and attempt to understand them, and take them into account. And have even said so. Twice now.

Basically then, you are just trying to blow smoke up my ass, and make yourself look good in comparison to this make believe straw man that you are trying to build and sustain.

fertig

Firm

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/27/2010 5:44:36 PM

flcouple2009

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How much are the tickets going to be when you bring this comedy routine on the road? Will Pops come along to pass the hat for you?

Simple question.

Why do you believe they are guilty? What is the benefit and the motive? Unless there was some scheme to actually have people try and vote on those registrations I fail to see any benefit.

If this had been orchestrated by Acorn, you don't think these people who are facing jail time would use that information to save themselves?

You call that a straw man because you have no answers.

Edited to add:
This came up here in Orange and Seminole county. It was suggested Acorn could tighten there oversight but no one tried to prosecute. I think the DA's took it for what it was, people trying to cam a buck of their employer without working.

If I remember right (without searching for it) it was the DA in Seminole who said he didn't see any reason to believe that Mickey Mouse, Shaquille O'Neal, or other members of the Orlando Magic (those were the examples used) were going to be trying to vote on those registrations.

< Message edited by flcouple2009 -- 11/27/2010 5:57:51 PM >

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/27/2010 10:38:32 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

How much are the tickets going to be when you bring this comedy routine on the road? Will Pops come along to pass the hat for you?

Akinskyite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
Simple question.

Why do you believe they are guilty? What is the benefit and the motive? Unless there was some scheme to actually have people try and vote on those registrations I fail to see any benefit.

If this had been orchestrated by Acorn, you don't think these people who are facing jail time would use that information to save themselves?

I don't " believe they are guilty". In fact, I not sure what you are talking about, really.

I wish to know if the pattern of illegal registration should reflect upon the larger organization. My bias (as I have stated several times) is that it should, but I'm willing to entertain arguments that are counter to my inclinations.

So far, no one has given any really reasonable argument that the organization is guiltless, or at least, no more guilty than any other large organization, due to the variables of individual employees.

Specifically, an organization in which one of it's primary focuses is on getting legal and qualified voters to vote, and which on multiple occasions then has employees (whose primary job is implementing such an organizational focus) are found to have been convicted of crimes which make a mockery of their stated principles: does the training and moral principles of that organization come under legitimate question?

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

You call that a straw man because you have no answers.

I have asked questions.

You have thrown multiple straw mans up, without ever once even coming close to addressing those questions.

I do not feel that the moral onus is on me, but rather on you.

Que sera, sera.

Firm

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/28/2010 12:50:37 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

does the training and moral principles of that organization come under legitimate question?

Do we question our colleges when teachers are found to be pedophiles?

There is always a way to make someone else out to be the bad guy, if you want to make someone bad. These individuals committed crimes. Unless you have proof the organization sanctioned the crime, then you cannot hold the organization responsible.

If you want to push this, the argument could be made, using your tenents, that McVeigh's actions are the responsibilities of the US Army, because, surely, the Army instructed him on how to use explosives.

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/28/2010 4:32:24 AM

flcouple2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Mighty nice of you to "give a pass" to an organization which has had 15 convictions to date on attempts to suborn citizen's rights to elect the officials they chose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Come on Ron ... one is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

What is 15 times?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
So ... you don't see multiple employees, across the nation, who have all been convicted of similar crimes says anything about the organization which hired them?

Nothing about the employee vetting process? Nothing about, perhaps, "any means to achieve the goal"? And nothing about the care taken by the organization to ensure that the employees understood that illegal activities would not be tolerated?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Certainly, my own biases (which I recognize) wants to lead me to the conclusion that there is something wrong with the organization, but I'm willing to learn.

I can clearly see where you do not believe them guilty, lol.

You remind me of the old joke line when someone is trying to sing and you ask, "What did you do with the money?" and they answer "What money?" then the punch line comes, "The money your mom gave you for singing lessons".

You most certainly took the tap dancing lessons. I guess this is a vaudeville act more than just a comedy routine you have going.

Acorn had workers who decided filling in fake names and addresses was much easier than actually working for their paycheck. Unfortunately for them they weren't bright enough to understand they were violating elections laws which would make some groups lose their mind.

Where and how do you see Acorn working to "suborn citizen's rights to elect the officials they choose"?

We have a motive and benefit for the workers. Where is the motive and benefit for Acorn?

Attempt for once to put something behind your words. Be a big boy and own what you say.

It is nice to finally see you admit to you bias rather then pretending to be the "fair and partial middle".

< Message edited by flcouple2009 -- 11/28/2010 4:35:30 AM >

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/28/2010 6:44:59 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you're sticking to your hypocritical guilt by association claims despite teh hypocrisy of it being made clear to you. So much for your repeated claims of open and fair mindedness.

Fish. Barrel.

1. I've not claimed that ACORN is guilty of anything in this thread, although I have admitted that my own biases find it difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.

2. I've asked questions on the subject, to get others' input, and see if there are any points, or information that I should take into account before I actually make an operative decision on the issue.

3. I've made no claims that I remember, of "open and fair mindedness" in this thread, I'm sure. In fact, I think I'm one of the few who understands that I have biases, and attempt to understand them, and take them into account. And have even said so. Twice now.

Basically then, you are just trying to blow smoke up my ass, and make yourself look good in comparison to this make believe straw man that you are trying to build and sustain.

fertig

Firm

Do you really think anyone is falling for this passive agressive crap?

You want to point out that ACORN has been convicted 15 times this year of voter fraud while the reality is 15 former employees of ACORN have been convicted of voter registration fraud which in reality cost ACORN money,since they paid the registrars who defrauded ACORN.

You asked for information but dismiss anything positive about ACORN, such as the fact that ACORN turned in their employees for these crimes in the past.

You certainly have claimed to b e open and fair minded in other threads when making the claim fit your agenda. Now that I have your backhanded admission that you aren't I will be pleased to post it every time you make that claim going forward.

Finally you claim I have erected a strawman, your entire ergument is based on a strawman. ACORN has not been convicted 15 times this year. People who used to work for ACORN have been. ACORN was not a defedant in any of the cases I can find. Pretty classic strawman.

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RE: Acorn's 2010 Convictions - 11/28/2010 6:57:19 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

Does this not point to a basic problem with the ethos and ethics of the organization? Or is this just the result of political maneuvering on the part of ACORN opponents?

It clearly points to the bassis of the ethos and ethics of the organization.
It would seem quite obvious to the most casual observer that the percentage of convicted criminals at acorn is significantly lower than the percentage of convicted criminals from the police department,the republicrat party, the demopub party and the army you claim to have served in.
So it would seem, by your line of argument, that you wish to see any group that has 15 convictions out of a half million employees be disbanded and discredited....Your logic is, as usual, somewhat flawed.

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