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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:48:48 AM   
Edwynn


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I know.

Just read the subsequent post.



I'm all tame now, no worries.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/27/2010 4:50:37 AM >

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:55:19 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


I know.

Just read the subsequent post.

I'm all tame now, no worries.

So I saw. Increase the peace and all that

That's the worst thing about this - one can't act on one's justified and outraged sense of the affront to natural justice in wanting to punch these smug, overpaid arseholes into tiny bits without at once becoming what you beheld.

I think I'll take a walk through the City Of London and just shout "CUNT!" at anyone in pinstripes - it's a fair compromise

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 5:19:24 AM   
pahunkboy


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Chuckles.    :-)

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 6:29:57 AM   
Aneirin


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But with interest, I read the vehemence directed towards the bankers and the devilish desire to hang, shoot and batter them with a large piece of wood, so I ask where is the difference in that and what a few of the 'students' did during the protests ?

If the desire is for violence, even if it is togue in cheek, what makes what the 'soap dodgers' did any diferent, for they acted on their fury and took it out on inanimate objects, not people.

But whilst the desire is with some to even jokingly cause the death of others, then no blame can be put upon the furious young.

The sad thing is, the young now get to inherit this country, don't you think they should have a say in it.

But as I am a student, I will give you some heads up on just what the sitiuation is that is making me consider to quit my BA course. The college where I am at suffers the problem of funding, so much so that instead of hacking into the course materials and structure, all the lecturers have now been forced to work part time, which does not make sense when lecturers are required for student education. But to counter the loss of lecturer activity the technicians are being forced to teach. The technicians were recruited to look after the tools and materials and get things ready for lecturer classes, not teach and very few of them even have a basic pgc. The result is a technician on about 16k max is doing duties which were not in the contract, filling in for 40k lecturers who are not allowed to do their job. The result of technician tuition means the assessments are taking a nose dive, the standards are dropping fast.

I went to that college expecting it to teach me the gaps in my knowledge, but three years in I have come to the conclusion, the course has taught me nothing new, so I am left dissapointed and wondering whether I should continue, as many of my colleagues are saying, why if I can do the job already am I at college, for a BA will not serve me, especially so as the only way forward for me is self employment.

But my original plan was to get that bit of paper to prove my skills as it seems now that in this society if one does not have certification of some sorts, then no matter how good one is, industry looks the other way. Which kind of stuffs it up for all those time served people who learned their skills on the job, many of whom are on the dole. Retrain they say to do another job, then they cut the student spending as if retraining is not hard enough already, the mood is low and yes we all know 'in education' is another name for 'out of work but at least doing something useful', it is a con to keep names of the claimant statistics.

Now if that is not enough, I live on a students income, which means no heating this winter like the last and the one before it to avoid massive debt. Soap dodger, that is an accurate description when hot water one can have about once a week, so my decisions are not wholy based upon the college situation, I am 44 now and this isn't living, this is barely surviving and that is the truth for many who now feel this country is selling us short.

But if this nation is to become useful again, where does it start if anything other than an educated workforce, education is the key to this country's success and what is happening, it is not happening, the government has hit the education hard, the quality of courses shows just that, what comes aout at the end though being a pass on a course, is not the quality that could have been and with that a lower standard for the future. So that being education is there, but it will pale into insignificance compared to the likes of Germany, where they seem to believe education is the way to success, as their industry proves.

Here, everything is done on the cheap, half assed just to make it look good on the surface.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 6:43:33 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But with interest, I read the vehemence directed towards the bankers and the devilish desire to hang, shoot and batter them with a large piece of wood, so I ask where is the difference in that and what a few of the 'students' did during the protests ?


The difference, as I'm sure you know, is that to talk jokingly about doing something, and actually doing something, are two very different things.

One is generally categorised as "humour", the other is commonly known as "vandalism" or "assault".

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 7:03:47 AM   
Aneirin


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If that thought is considered joking, think of that thought as applied to the young and angry.

I agree that smashing things up is not the way forward and it can do more harm than good, but of course age and experience teach us these things, as well as a not so connected view point or lack of knowledge at what passions are burning so deep.

As we age we get used to the shit we are put through, the ideals gone wrong and the cynicism and dis belief in the way forward, but the young have only their young years to draw from and with that they lack the experience the older  have come to know. Could it be them with their young age and bright ideals they are actually more right than those that just look on through time worn tired eyes.

Perhaps it is, the older are just well trained to accept whatever shit is thrown at them, where the young react. Who is right and who is wrong is a very good question.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 7:19:20 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Perhaps it is, the older are just well trained to accept whatever shit is thrown at them, where the young react. Who is right and who is wrong is a very good question.


No it isn't.

Smashing people and things that don't belong to you up is wrong in almost all situations, other than for self-defence purposes. Just because people do it for reasons that make temporary sense to them doesn't validate them for doing it. The utter fuckwit who lobbed that fire extinguisher off the roof came within six inches of killing someone.

I do note, however, that you said “react” – reacting is fine, smashing is not. If people can protest without smashing people and things then they're welcome to do so all day long, in my book. And blaming it on “a few hotheads” is nothing but a cop-out (heh); if demonstration organisers can’t keep a lid on the thugs then they shouldn’t be demonstrating in the first place. I'm actually pleased that almost all those arrested were later shown to be students, as the protestations from the organisers that “they couldn't have been students” were wearing very thin.

Finally I’d like to tell you I hate you for making me think and write like my fucking father would, and for thus feeling about 20 years older than I actually am as a result But I can’t take the opinions of vandals and thugs seriously.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 7:21:51 AM   
mnottertail


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Those sentiments are not necessarily those of old men, old cheese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 7:47:41 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Those sentiments are not necessarily those of old men, old cheese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78

Good point. Commonsense and respect are not the preserve of the old, and I didn't mean to imply they were

Anyway I'm not old. I'm 44. That's ... er ... "nicely mature".

Like cheese.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 7:49:45 AM   
pahunkboy


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The 2 are really love birds... they are not fighting..

HA

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:10:51 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The 2 are really love birds... they are not fighting..

HA


Pa, there's a huge difference between "discussion" and "fighting". Aneirin has views that differ from mine, but we can still discuss them, politely and pleasantly.

Maybe one day you'll be allowed to sit at the adult's table too*

*For you, and only because it's you, I'm clearly labelling this as a joke. It's a joke. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:13:16 AM   
pahunkboy


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Ut oh.

I just noticed there are 2 non fights... I got the threads mixed up.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:19:23 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Ut oh.

I just noticed there are 2 non fights... I got the threads mixed up.


I did wonder, but I thought if I suggested that you might have a hizzy fit

Not to worry, it's not a problem.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:42:08 AM   
Aneirin


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I think perceptions are based upon situation, like I before these three years passed used to hold the unemployed in disdain, believing as the authorities say, there are loads of jobs out there, and with that I used to look down my nose at protesting students anywhere, but when one has the the situation where one becomes one of the maligned, it is not long before long held oppinions change through the correct education, that of being there and experiencing for oneself. As a result now, I have learned to base my suppositions and opinions on actual experience, not the words of others, although I do take them on board as a parity in which to determine correct reasoning.

Although it is not corect to vandalise and cause costs for others, I can now understand what kind of rage leads to those primitive actions, and I know it serves no purpose other than to ridicule the perpetrators in the eyes of the populace when it is the well practised establishment seeks to reassert it's control.

But the young are the young, they have yet to feel the full force of what our society is capable of and with that, over the last twenty years a change in society that actually promotes the thought that the young have a say, 'hug a hoodie' is but one example, there are many more, but once the mealy mouthed have engaged the young, they cannot turn them on and off as it suits them, for in recognising the young voice, the young now believe they have a voice and will exercise it despite what the controllers say.

I am finding at my age of 44, I am agreeing with the protests of the students, but it is not me to join their rampage, as I know where it leads, besides that, I despise the police through past actions of having my beliefs in a structured society smashed in one night, the reason for the ptsd, police were a lot to do with that, and they re affirmed the problem I have with them only this passed February one night and again strangely on this passed halloween night in my own village where I rarely stray from, a pig off duty disrespected those he once called friends.

I feel as I age, I am becoming more aware of the plight of others and that I believe is all down to experience, for now I have gone from relative wealth to the bottom and can see where I came from from where I am now, and I will say, the view down here, is totally different from the view I held from up there, but things tend to come more into focus the nearer you get to them. The general feeling is, those of a higher monetary status, or having passed their exams, their views change as they enter a new strata of life, a case of it does not affect me, so why should I care.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:51:18 AM   
hertz


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In the interests of argument, I'm not sure I agree with RapierFugue's conclusion. Sometimes, breaking things is exactly what is needed to provoke change. Sometimes even, breaking things is necessary in order for one's voice to be heard. I wish it weren't so, but I am of the firm conviction that no matter how much our state claims itself via our democracy to listen to the voices of all, it simply does not do so. And sometimes, if one's voice is not to be heard, then one has to do more than simply shout to get a place at the table.

The history of the world is littered with violently destructive acts carried out in the pursuit of justice and freedom. It's right and it's proper that these acts, on occasion, occur. In the case of the student protests, their vote was secured with a pledge...



That pledge has been thrown aside without as much as a backwards glance. It's wrong. And it needs to be fixed.

On saying that, the incident with the fire extinguisher was dangerous and stupid. It's difficult to defend it. Similarly, it is is difficult to defend the police using horses to charge crowds of students and children in order to shut them up.



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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:53:10 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I feel as I age, I am becoming more aware of the plight of others and that I believe is all down to experience, for now I have gone from relative wealth to the bottom and can see where I came from from where I am now, and I will say, the view down here, is totally different from the view I held from up there, but things tend to come more into focus the nearer you get to them. The general feeling is, those of a higher monetary status, or having passed their exams, their views change as they enter a new strata of life, a case of it does not affect me, so why should I care.



<reads>

Blimey you really have been through the ringer Sorry to read all that.

One thing though; I've had times of lots of money, and times (like now!) where things are much more of a struggle. My revulsion at people using violence, and my stance towards it (other than on a rugby field ) has remained constant. I don't like it, and I don't approve of it. Peaceful demonstration yes, violent thuggery, no.

And, thinking about it, I was at least as "compassionate", maybe even more so, when I had more money. These days I tend to think "well I'm not rich and you don't see me smashing the crap out of people/things".

There's a quote about "anyone who votes Labour when they're young has no brain and anyone who votes Tory when they're old has no soul", but I can't for the life of me remember the proper quote - someone around here might know.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 8:55:11 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
In the interests of argument, I'm not sure I agree with RapierFugue's conclusion.


I was so tempted to reply "Well fuck off then, twat! " but I was worried no-one would get the joke

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 9:06:18 AM   
hertz


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I might have missed it this time, but I'll get it next time round for sure...

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 9:12:37 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
I might have missed it this time, but I'll get it next time round for sure...

"In the interests of argument"?

No? Oh, maybe it was just me then

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 9:13:21 AM   
hertz


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*groans*

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