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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 8:17:40 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

This is another example of what happens when people think they are entitled to freebies while other people have to pay for it. First they rioted in Greece when the gov decided to cut back, then they rioted in France, when they decided to raise the retirement age, now they are rioting in England over tuition hikes.

When you start subsidizing everything, the costs just keep going up and up and eventually the government has to say we can't afford this any more. America use to be the greatest country in the world, because we didn't subsidize hardly anything. The free market system was allowed to work it's magic. If it didn't pay for itself through the free market system, then it failed and shut down for something better to come along. When you start subsidizing bad ideas or people who don't want to live within their means, you are creating an illusionary economy and setting yourself up for either a massive collapse or degeneration into a 3rd world nation.

The only programs we should be subsidizing are social security, medicare, and medicaid, but even then there need to be some major changes such as controlling costs first. One night in the hospital costing $3,000 is absurd.




the intention of government has always been passed off as an insurance policy.

So people could manage the infrastructure to ward off attacking nations.

Basically protect liberties.

Of course with the norman conquest the feudal pyramid scheme came into the picture.

They same one they set up when they set up the states here. (just changed the names to protect the guilty)

We were sold on bag of goods and given another.  Long story short feudalism has never worked any more than the fiat out of control monetary system is working.

Its all linked at the hip and until people start waking up and realize the fraud here nothing will ever change.

You named several organizations but it all comes under welfare.

All these systems are doomed to fail and they always short change one group while giving to another.  It cannot work any other way.  On the bright side they will usually never piss off enough people at the same time that it results in a revolution to change it.  If that in fact that really is a brite side.


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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 11:13:43 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
We live in a open and free society.  Paying for knowledge is contrary to that.


So give em a laptop each and tell em to fuck off to google for a few years.

What's that? Not good enough? Well in that case you'll need a great big building, lots of highly qualified lecturers ... living quarters ... canteens ... support services ... hmmmmmm this "free knowledge" is beginning to look a tad pricey, eh?

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 11:37:46 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
We live in a open and free society.  Paying for knowledge is contrary to that.


So give em a laptop each and tell em to fuck off to google for a few years.

What's that? Not good enough? Well in that case you'll need a great big building, lots of highly qualified lecturers ... living quarters ... canteens ... support services ... hmmmmmm this "free knowledge" is beginning to look a tad pricey, eh?




If the current model is so good, then why are they rioting?

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 11:46:13 AM   
mnottertail


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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 12:20:37 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
We live in a open and free society.  Paying for knowledge is contrary to that.


So give em a laptop each and tell em to fuck off to google for a few years.

What's that? Not good enough? Well in that case you'll need a great big building, lots of highly qualified lecturers ... living quarters ... canteens ... support services ... hmmmmmm this "free knowledge" is beginning to look a tad pricey, eh?



If the current model is so good, then why are they rioting?


Because the last four or five governments have been steadily reducing the funding for the public sector, and mostly ploughing the money into tax cuts or paying for our military to wipe your arses for you whenever you've picked a fight you can't finish yourselves. Systems that were well funded when they were set up after the war are now starting to collapse, as a result.


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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 1:26:16 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So whats your solution to deal with the deficit, where would you let the axe fall ? As an aside, nothing worked with the poll tax riots, they just got renamed.


You seriously believe all this shit is anything to do with the deficit? Don't make me laugh. This is about making an ideological attack on the state and using the deficit as an excuse for it.

Obviously the deficit needs dealing with, but it can be dealt with in a more measured way which would cause much less damage to the economy than the current action will. I'd suggest taking a bit more time about it, to prevent us lurching into a downward spiral of economic depression. I can't see that making millions unemployed and/or homeless is going to help us in any way.

I note that the banking sector problems and market failures which caused this crisis have yet to be addressed. Maybe we should start there.

A healthy dose of the axe onto Trident or whatever is proposed to replace it, would help as well.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 1:29:18 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I just love this pic, it says so much ;


Indeed so.

To me it says "I think I'm clever for helping to smash up this police van, little realising that repairing it will leech yet more money from overly stretched budgets. What a thick twat I am. Go me!"





Maybe we should ask one of the bankers to pay for it out of his million pound bonus. Then it wouldn't cost us a penny.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 4:18:04 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

You seriously believe all this shit is anything to do with the deficit? Don't make me laugh. This is about making an ideological attack on the state and using the deficit as an excuse for it.

Obviously the deficit needs dealing with, but it can be dealt with in a more measured way which would cause much less damage to the economy than the current action will. I'd suggest taking a bit more time about it, to prevent us lurching into a downward spiral of economic depression. I can't see that making millions unemployed and/or homeless is going to help us in any way.

I note that the banking sector problems and market failures which caused this crisis have yet to be addressed. Maybe we should start there.

A healthy dose of the axe onto Trident or whatever is proposed to replace it, would help as well.



Way to go with failing to answer the point in question. You have been drip fed crap about the class war, and swallowed it hook line and sinker. Still, no need to let facts stop you from having a good rant huh.

You say give the deficit more time, we dont have more time, it is crippling us by the hour, yet your advice is stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Well here is a newsflash, it wont go anywhere until it is tackled head on.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 4:49:47 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Also- looking at these very vivid pics-- I ponder if any of the kids are cops.... you know.

BTW_ =- I guess the cameras did not stop this event. lol. ooops.

No but at least now we know now who threw the fire extinguisher the other week; some middleclass wank that looks like meatloaf.

I've not yet seen a anarchist that wasn't from an affluent background. Likewise the majority of graffiti artists come from middleclass backgrounds.

Is it any wonder? You wrap them up in cotton wool all their lives and then when they get a sniff of freedom they go mad.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/26/2010 4:50:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 5:06:52 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Burning with anger: London streets in flames again as 25,000 go on rampage in new student fees riot


I think they just finally got sick of fish and chips.


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/26/2010 11:14:29 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Possibly the point has come for many where they think what does it matter anymore, may as well just protest, as were going to get screwed over anyway.


There are cutbacks all over, many in much more important areas, where people will suffer greatly. What makes these soap-dodgers a special case?



Sorry it took me awhile to get back to this one, but, ...........


Just what more "important areas" than the most essential element of any aspiring or established economy might you be referring to? So then, education is far down the list in your estimation.

I'm afraid to even ask for an explanation on that one.


Unless you have anything more intelligent  than "soap dodgers!" to say about it, please don't bother.

PS

Not that I'd have any clue what soap dodgers means, less would I even want to know.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/26/2010 11:17:04 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 1:57:34 AM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

You seriously believe all this shit is anything to do with the deficit? Don't make me laugh. This is about making an ideological attack on the state and using the deficit as an excuse for it.

Obviously the deficit needs dealing with, but it can be dealt with in a more measured way which would cause much less damage to the economy than the current action will. I'd suggest taking a bit more time about it, to prevent us lurching into a downward spiral of economic depression. I can't see that making millions unemployed and/or homeless is going to help us in any way.

I note that the banking sector problems and market failures which caused this crisis have yet to be addressed. Maybe we should start there.

A healthy dose of the axe onto Trident or whatever is proposed to replace it, would help as well.



Way to go with failing to answer the point in question. You have been drip fed crap about the class war, and swallowed it hook line and sinker. Still, no need to let facts stop you from having a good rant huh.

You say give the deficit more time, we dont have more time, it is crippling us by the hour, yet your advice is stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Well here is a newsflash, it wont go anywhere until it is tackled head on.


Sadly, you are the one who is falling for a line as I previously explained to you. What is happening here has little to do with economics and a great deal to do with ideology. And, I note, you are misrepresenting what I have said at the same time. For example, nowhere in my reply did I say or imply: 'stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away'. I expected more of you for some reason. God only knows why. Suffice to say I disagree with you, as do many others regarding this subject.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:49:08 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

You seriously believe all this shit is anything to do with the deficit? Don't make me laugh.


Odd that you make remarks like this, then seem surprised when I replied as i did.

quote:


Sadly, you are the one who is falling for a line as I previously explained to you. What is happening here has little to do with economics and a great deal to do with ideology. And, I note, you are misrepresenting what I have said at the same time. For example, nowhere in my reply did I say or imply: 'stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away'. I expected more of you for some reason. God only knows why. Suffice to say I disagree with you, as do many others regarding this subject.



I agree my stick your head in the sand remark was a bit terse, thats because we dont have the time to do this any other way. This is nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with getting the economy under control, after the disaster that was Gordon Brown. I recall the sixties and seventies when class warfare, in the guise of Marxist union leaders, used to repeatedly bring the country to a standstill, with millions of working days lost every year.

You are stuck in your ideological time warp, with no real answers to the problems of today. Labour had already planned to do much of what the coalition are doing, infact Blair was elected in 1997 promising to make the exact same welfare reforms that are now being introduced.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:50:07 AM   
RapierFugue


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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Just what more "important areas" than the most essential element of any aspiring or established economy might you be referring to? So then, education is far down the list in your estimation.


Further down the list than social welfare (like housing benefits cuts that will see folk out on the street, or living in intolerable overcrowding) or the NHS, yes.

And I didn't say anything about "education" either. State schools are in a far worse state than Unis, and Unis cannot continue to be subsidised to the extent they are, but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your ignorance.

Unless you have anything more intelligent than "you said education!" to say about it, please don't bother.



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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 2:52:12 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Maybe we should ask one of the bankers to pay for it out of his million pound bonus. Then it wouldn't cost us a penny.

Fat chance

The last figures I saw said that bankers had directly caused £47 Billion of damage to the UK, and had, in one form or another, contributed £3 Billion.

To quote Hicks "let's run through those numbers again - they're a little baffling at first sight". That's 47 billion in direct damage (so not including things like bailing the little shits out) and 3 back ... basically, we got royally stiffed.

A lot of people say "but the banking sector is important to Britain". Well maybe, but I still think we ought to tax the little shits into the middle of next week. What's especially galling is that, with the exception of *one* bonus cycle, they didn't so much as suffer a nosebleed while the rest of us had our finances rogered roughly from behind.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:00:08 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
infact Blair was elected in 1997 promising to make the exact same welfare reforms that are now being introduced.


Not hugely disagreeing with the rest of what you wrote but my recollection of Blair's plans then is that they weren't as wholesale or as deep as the ones being implemented now. But I could, of course, be wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:00:19 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Bliar is a twat. It doesn't surprise me at all that he would be aiming to follow conservative policy - after all, that was how New Labour got elected: they did conservatism better than the conservative party. As for Brown, I think you might need to explain why, if it's all his fault, how he managed to sink the rest of the world's economies from here? Remote control, maybe?

The difficulty with finding answers for the problems of today is that the way things are currently set up makes it extremely difficult to do anything but the same dumb-ass shit we have been doing for the last 40 years. But as you have already remarked, there isn't space here really to get into a huge debate about the merits of socialism over neo-liberalism. How about we just take the shorthand version? I lean towards socialism, you do not. Of course we are not going to agree, and, unfortunately, because in the real world we don't get the opportunity to rerun or delete our errors and play them out differently, we're not really going to be able to settle this argument. In the end it will come down to me denying that hacking into the state is going to help, and you claiming that it will.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:01:29 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Bliar is a twat.


Way to debate the shit outta dat motherfucka

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:03:02 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Maybe we should ask one of the bankers to pay for it out of his million pound bonus. Then it wouldn't cost us a penny.

Fat chance

The last figures I saw said that bankers had directly caused £47 Billion of damage to the UK, and had, in one form or another, contributed £3 Billion.

To quote Hicks "let's run through those numbers again - they're a little baffling at first sight". That's 47 billion in direct damage (so not including things like bailing the little shits out) and 3 back ... basically, we got royally stiffed.

A lot of people say "but the banking sector is important to Britain". Well maybe, but I still think we ought to tax the little shits into the middle of next week. What's especially galling is that, with the exception of *one* bonus cycle, they didn't so much as suffer a nosebleed while the rest of us had our finances rogered roughly from behind.



Here's a funny thing. When we first crossed swords on this site (excuse the pun) I thought we wouldn't get along. But actually, I so fecking agree with you, it's untrue!

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:04:44 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		This is why I made the comments I did on another thread blaming Brown for the current crisis. He was warned repeatedly about both the credit crisis looming and unsustainable house prices. He even shouted down Vince Cable when Cable asked him about those very points in the commons. The reality is Brown was making so much from the increased tax revenue, he thought he was right and refused to listen to anyone who just "Thought" there was a crisis over the horizon.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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