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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:06:12 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Here's a funny thing. When we first crossed swords on this site (excuse the pun) I thought we wouldn't get along. But actually, I so fecking agree with you, it's untrue!


The thing is I sort of think I'm wrong about it, in financial terms, but there is such a thing as natural justice.

(in reply to hertz)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:09:15 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

This is why I made the comments I did on another thread blaming Brown for the current crisis. He was warned repeatedly about both the credit crisis looming and unsustainable house prices. He even shouted down Vince Cable when Cable asked him about those very points in the commons. The reality is Brown was making so much from the increased tax revenue, he thought he was right and refused to listen to anyone who just "Thought" there was a crisis over the horizon.

All true, sadly - I even recall Gordon's sneering dismissal of Cable (and someone else too, but I can't for the life of me recall who).

I'm not coming at this from a party-political POV, more a "least harm to least number of people" POV. Now I agree that the deficit does need tackling, but the areas outlined for cutting, the way it's being implemented, the people who will actually suffer the most, and the time-scale over which it's being dealt with all give me cause for concern.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:13:24 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
We live in a open and free society.  Paying for knowledge is contrary to that.


So give em a laptop each and tell em to fuck off to google for a few years.

What's that? Not good enough? Well in that case you'll need a great big building, lots of highly qualified lecturers ... living quarters ... canteens ... support services ... hmmmmmm this "free knowledge" is beginning to look a tad pricey, eh?



If the current model is so good, then why are they rioting?


Because the last four or five governments have been steadily reducing the funding for the public sector, and mostly ploughing the money into tax cuts or paying for our military to wipe your arses for you whenever you've picked a fight you can't finish yourselves. Systems that were well funded when they were set up after the war are now starting to collapse, as a result.



It is ALL about Goldman Sachs bonuses.  It has nothing to do with our wars here. NOTHING.  Follow the money.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:16:20 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I dont see how it could be done on anything but a quick time scale. I feel we dont have the luxury of being able to wait, mostly due to the massive interest payments. I also think whoever got in would have had some hard choices to make, would Labour have been able to do so and upset the unions that bankroll them ?

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:17:55 AM   
hertz


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quote:

Politesub53

He was warned repeatedly about both the credit crisis looming and unsustainable house prices.


I'd say that by then it was too late anyway. When you can see there is a problem, it's already in the system and it's going to play out whatever you do. That's why the whole of the West is up shit creek. The bankers helped create a huge credit bubble based on thin air and bonuses and by the time anyone realised the whole pack of cards was falling down, it was much too late to fix it. The fact is, much of what has befallen us here is to do with loss of faith. The market is irrational and frightened. We'll never know, but maybe bluffing it out was the only course of action Brown (and the rest of the world's leaders) had available to him. As soon as you say 'Shit - there's a problem', the market dives, and then it's all over you like a rash. Maybe the only strategy available at the time was to pretend it wasn't happening in the hope that the market would stay bouyant for long enough to make a controlled intervention to fix the problem, and, if that didn't work (and it didn't), then to look at other options.

Whatever Brown did or didn't do, the fact remains that the whole of the western economy is fucked up. It's ridiculous to point at Brown and say 'It's all his fault' because it simply isn't.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:18:07 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

It is ALL about Goldman Sachs bonuses.  It has nothing to do with our wars here. NOTHING.  Follow the money.



At last, the voice of reason.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:25:44 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

It is ALL about Goldman Sachs bonuses.  It has nothing to do with our wars here. NOTHING.  Follow the money.



At last, the voice of reason.


Google the Inter Apha group.  There is your enemy.    Not America.



(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:27:06 AM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		LaRouche Says: The Inter-Alpha Group Must Be Destroyed!Mar 2, 2010 ... The Inter-Alpha Group was formed in 1971, as a syndicate of six oligarchic European banks, the year the Nixon Administration foolishly took ...
www.larouchepac.com/node/13720 - Cached

It is Tantamount to War: Sink the Inter-Alpha GroupNovember 21st, 2010 • 10:00 AM31:22


< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 11/27/2010 3:28:38 AM >

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:27:54 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Brown, as Chancellor, has to take his share of the blame. There is no doubt he could have avoided much of the housing crisis, Cable was warning of this as early as 2003 at least. So much for Brown`s smug "No more boom and bust" speech.

It may all not be his fault individually, but it is the fault of those, and those like him worldwide, collectively.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:30:30 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		See what happens when we have fiat currency.

It is not backed by gold... so what do you expect.  The grid is demanding you - the the very currency they issue is rubbish. This from THEM, not from ME, and not from ALEX.

The GRID itself is telling you- that cash is trash!

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:38:32 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Bliar is a twat. It doesn't surprise me at all that he would be aiming to follow conservative policy - after all, that was how New Labour got elected: they did conservatism better than the conservative party. As for Brown, I think you might need to explain why, if it's all his fault, how he managed to sink the rest of the world's economies from here? Remote control, maybe?

The difficulty with finding answers for the problems of today is that the way things are currently set up makes it extremely difficult to do anything but the same dumb-ass shit we have been doing for the last 40 years. But as you have already remarked, there isn't space here really to get into a huge debate about the merits of socialism over neo-liberalism. How about we just take the shorthand version? I lean towards socialism, you do not. Of course we are not going to agree, and, unfortunately, because in the real world we don't get the opportunity to rerun or delete our errors and play them out differently, we're not really going to be able to settle this argument. In the end it will come down to me denying that hacking into the state is going to help, and you claiming that it will.



See my other post re Brown, I feel he followed the American model blindly on the economy, just as Blair did on Iraq. The reason things fell apart world wide is that the whole International system is like a deck of cards, if one falls they all fall due to having a world wide system using local back up plans. If there is to be a world world banking system we need to have a world wide fail safe to fall back on.

You are right I am not actually a socialist, but i do think society should be social. IE I think it needs a mix of socialist policies that recognise capitalism as a legitimate need for kick starting business. I admire Thatcher for much of what she done, curbing the unions ect, but hate her for other policies, such as selling of the energy companies.

The main problem with British politics is no long term plan agreed by all parties. Surely between them this wouldnt be hard to achieve.

(in reply to hertz)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:39:51 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I dont see how it could be done on anything but a quick time scale. I feel we dont have the luxury of being able to wait, mostly due to the massive interest payments. I also think whoever got in would have had some hard choices to make, would Labour have been able to do so and upset the unions that bankroll them ?

I should imagine Labour were secretly delighted not to get in; finally rid of Brown, and handing over a time-bomb to the next lot. One commentator wrote, just before the last election, that whoever got in wouldn't get re-elected for a generation.

I wonder if they'd thought about the possibility of a coalition though? Might scupper 2 parties, or might give them the chance to partially palm it all off on the other lot

The focus of the cuts is wrong in places, and while I take your point about interest I'd say that that's the price of borrowing money to avoid massive hardship and possible social unrest, if you follow me. Pay it off yes, but not squeeze ordinary people quite so hard.

But I'm not in major disagreement with you, if that makes any sense.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:40:57 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
This from THEM, not from ME, and not from ALEX.

"PA and Alex, sitting in a tree ..."

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:42:56 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
No but at least now we know now who threw the fire extinguisher the other week; some middleclass wank that looks like meatloaf.


I didn't actually spit coffee when I read that, but by god it was close

What a line

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:44:35 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Burning with anger: London streets in flames again as 25,000 go on rampage in new student fees riot


I think they just finally got sick of fish and chips.


I can't stand fish & chips.

Well actually, I can't stand "average" fish & chips. There's a place on the Isle Of Man I visit when I go over for the TT races that does the best, most amazing fish & chips ever. It's a delight.

The regular stuff though isn't fit for human consumption.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 3:47:30 AM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Brown, as Chancellor, has to take his share of the blame. There is no doubt he could have avoided much of the housing crisis, Cable was warning of this as early as 2003 at least. So much for Brown`s smug "No more boom and bust" speech.

It may all not be his fault individually, but it is the fault of those, and those like him worldwide, collectively.


Absolutely I agree he has to take a share of the blame. He was part of the group-speak that set us on this course. But again, I think by saying that he could have 'avoided much of the housing crisis' you are missing the bigger picture. The housing crisis is but a part of what is actually happening. We're not in a housing crisis. We're in an economic crisis caused by a banking debt crisis. There are problems with housing - Ireland has a nightmarish problem and there are difficulties in the US. But there doesn't seem to be much going on in the UK. House prices are pretty stable. The problem in the UK has little to do with UK property prices. The problem in the UK is that the banks made some stupid gambling bets with money they didn't have that have gone wrong on them, and when the rest of us bailed them out, they've just sat on the money and used it to pay bonuses instead of working with us to get the economy going again.

On saying that, I think we should have nationalised them, instead of lending to them and losing control of our money. And we should have shot a few city bankers to make us feel a bit better.

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:20:19 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Just what more "important areas" than the most essential element of any aspiring or established economy might you be referring to? So then, education is far down the list in your estimation.


Further down the list than social welfare (like housing benefits cuts that will see folk out on the street, or living in intolerable overcrowding) or the NHS, yes.

And I didn't say anything about "education" either. State schools are in a far worse state than Unis, and Unis cannot continue to be subsidised to the extent they are, but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your ignorance.

Unless you have anything more intelligent than "you said education!" to say about it, please don't bother.




Glad you've come back to the fray!


Thanks for responding.

I could have sworn it was you that said something along the lines of  "what makes them think they are so special", and that was concerning the riots, which supposedly had something to do with the rise in tuition. But I could well be mistaken.

Any regards, I'm still digging out all the fraud that has transpired these last some years, and it's even worse than we thought.

In the US, there was some tax exempt pool of mortgages (OK, cess pool, as it turns out) that was for purpose of providing a market for housing for low to moderate income prospective buyers. It was from this that the mortgages were scarfed up by the large investment banks, thence sliced and diced into the now infamous collateralized debt obligations (CDOs). All along, I thought that the fraud was held to the CDOs stuffed with some percentage of actual defaults and foreclosures contained within, unbeknownst to buyers, and the credit default swaps obtained thereby, but now just recently I've found that the whole fraud was tax free all through. The requirements or standards of this tax free pool were ignored or undercut at every turn, so on top of the intitial sub-prime fraud, the whole scam was sent thence tax free to the CDO market. Now the banks or loan servicers or whatever are trying to foreclose on the fraudulent overpriced initial loans and have to create more false paperwork to cover up for the initial false paperwork to give overpriced loans to unqualified buyers so as to keep up with the demand of the investment banks, who were actually selling these CDOs before the underlying mortgages even existed, and S&P and Moody's stamped AAA on them as fast as they came through, and ........

The whole frikin' scam was tax-free the whole way through!



FUCK!!



OK, I'll stop here.


But just in case one might wonder as to why I might be a bit snippy about all this talk of "well, we all have to make cuts somewhere" crap. 


NO we don't!



We just have to shoot several people is all, and quit bitching at me about it.


I don't even need a gun.



Just hand me the large stick and look the other way if you 're so squeamish then.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/27/2010 4:26:06 AM >

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RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:26:12 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Caif had some protests too.

Dont they no that per the CPI- we in fact have DEFLATION?

So there you go.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:32:45 AM   
Edwynn


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No, I'm not actually going to  hit anybody, much less shoot them. But I will be gone from here in 2 years, max.

These urges do not sit well with my own nature.





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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Burning with anger: London streets in flames again ... - 11/27/2010 4:41:35 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I could have sworn it was you that said something along the lines of "what makes them think they are so special", and that was concerning the riots, which supposedly had something to do with the rise in tuition. But I could well be mistaken.

Being fair, as I try to be, I can see where it's possible to read it in that way, but that wasn't my intent, and you have to stretch the context a bit to get even that far, but it's a sunny day in Her Majesty's capital and beautiful light is flooding my tiny flat, cheering me and filling me with love and concern for my fellow man* so WTF, not a problem.

Something has to give and Unis are subsidised to the hilt as it is. More basic education is in the crapper (witness the schools building funding being targeted) and thus I do feel these students are being both selfish and self-interested ... most of them will get highly paid jobs within a few years of graduation, and so long as student debt isn't pursued with those who are unemployed, which it currently isn't, then I'm afraid they're just going to have to grin and bear it. Smashing up stuff in a "I'm a wite webel I am!" stylee isn't the way forward.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
OK, I'll stop here.
But just in case one might wonder as to why I might be a bit snippy about all this talk of "well, we all have to make cuts somewhere" crap.
NO we don't!
We just have to shoot several people is all, and quit bitching at me about it.
I don't even need a gun.
Just hand me the large stick and look the other way if you 're so squeamish then.

It's not (as I'm sure you're aware) even halfway that simple. I do think more should be done to tax those responsible, but I do also see that people, in terms of their general demand for credit, in not wanting to wait to own things, but instead to simply want them now, is also a factor.

Yes, shooting a few bankers is always fun, but just as I criticise the students for the violence and vandalism so I can't let myself off the hook with regards to wanting to kill bankers.

One side note; I see Bernie Ecclestone and his girlfriend got mugged in London the other day, in what looks like a targeted attack. The thieves got away with two hundred thousand pounds-worth of jewellery. 200 Grand?! On 2 people?! FFS! I'm not condoning crime, but when someone's wandering around with 200k in personal fripperies then something's very wrong somewhere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11844613

*bankers excepted

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 100
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