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Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 10:49:35 AM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		I've seen a few anti Israel threads on this board and have seen basically the same people post on each one. Even the threads which I feel are legitimate criticism of Israel (ie the light sentencing of Israeli soldier who made  a boy open a possible bomb thread) quickly turn into "Israel is a terrorist state"

I have been wondering why no one ever says "the Palestinians are terrorists, too" or even "Hamas" is a terror group against Israel. These points are usually left alone for articles which are labeled as "propaganda".

The fact is many rockets have been fired into Israel's borders since 2000. They are fired at civilian population centers and these are simply dismissed in most reports, the Goldstone report being no exception. White phosphorous rockets were recently fired at an Israeli population center.

Two responses to the Goldstone report:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/g_report_e1.pdf
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hamas-exploitation-civilians-human-shields

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/06/gazaisrael-hamas-rocket-attacks-civilians-unlawful

The human rights watch saying that Hamas fires rockets at civilian targets and from densely populated areas.

I understand we can go all day about the Goldstone report, so I posted the two links just to sum up both sides of the case, with the first one being Israel's declassified information as well as citing Hamas and independent sources to absolve many claims in the Goldstone report, the second one showing the criticism of Hamas' own response to the Goldstone.

My question is this, to those who support what Palestine does: How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are either A) Willing to fire rockets into civilian population centers or B) Are too incompetent to arrest and prosecute those who do?

How do you justify firing rockets from dense population centers as the Human Rights Watch has stated?

How do you justify leadership which murders its own people and does not produce evidence that they did anything wrong? http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/hamas-murders-its-own-people-west-is-silent/

I bring these up because many times I see a response to these questions as "well, palestine has to deal with Israel!" and then that opens up the argument "well, Israel has to deal with palestine!" I personally, as well as other Israel supporters, have been criticized for citing the genevea convention is void if the opposing force does not follow it, so do any pro Palestinian people have valid arguments as to why these actions are acceptable? Or even bragged about by the leadership in Palestine at times?

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 1:41:27 PM   
TribeTziyon


Posts: 264
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I find your point very valid.

(in reply to MasterNJ20)
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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 1:45:45 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		A couple of points...

Firstly, Israel is a terrorist state. And a racist terrorist state at that. There can be no denying it.

The idea that 'the Palestinians' are terrorists is as objectionable as the idea that 'the Jews' are bastards. Hopefully, you will see the logic in this - painting a whole group of people as fascists isn't really accurate or helpful.

That Hamas is a terror group cannot be escaped. Clearly any group which employs random attacks on civilians is engaged in terrorism. In this respect the Israelis and Hamas are not much different from each other.

White Phosphorus is the weapon of choice of Israel as well as (recently) Hamas. There are many reports of Israel using White Phosphorus munitions in a way which endangers civilian populations. The use of this sort of weapon against civilians by both sides can only be deplored.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It would be very difficult, if not impossible for any party within Gaza to conduct pseudo-military operations against Israel without doing so from areas where civilian populations live.

Regarding the specific questions asked:

quote:

How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are either A) Willing to fire rockets into civilian population centers


Hamas were democratically elected by the Palestinians, who presumably felt that the corruption of Fatah and the long time failed diplomacy between Fatah and Israel needed to be challenged. In any case, targeting civilians is, as we have already discussed, a tactic employed by both sides of the argument. In order to censure one party, one should be willing to censure the other. Are you willing to censure Israel's targeting of civilians?

quote:

How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are... too incompetent to arrest and prosecute those who do?


Again, this is an accusation that can be levelled at both sides of the argument. Israel is unwilling to prosecute its own war criminals, and when it does start a prosecution it usually finds in favour of the defendants or levies sentences which are insignificant. If one is willing to censure one side, then the other too should be given fair criticism.

However, there is a major difference between Hamas and Israel in this respect. Israel has a fully functioning pseudo-democratic system which allows the chosen ones to make clear decisions about, and issue orders to instruct others to work on its behalf. Hamas does not have this luxury, because Israel continually kills the leaders of the party and damages and destroys the infrastructure which would allow a fully functioning 'government' to arise in Gaza. It should come as a surprise to no-one to see that Hamas is not fully in control of itself or its operatives and that since it is unable to police Gaza adequately, it cannot be held fully responsible for what happens there. In a sense, what we are seeing is a fully functioning state in conflict with a damaged and dysfunctional militia. Under these circumstances, peace is going to be impossible to achieve.

quote:

How do you justify firing rockets from dense population centers as the Human Rights Watch has stated?


How do you justify Israel launching heavy artillery into densely populated civilian areas, as the whole world has stated? Gaza is a densely populated ghetto. It is impossible to perform active resistance to Israeli attempts to destroy Palestine without acting from dense population centres.

quote:

How do you justify leadership which murders its own people and does not produce evidence that they did anything wrong?


How does Israel justify its policy of murder and assassination abroad? 

According to the Jerusalem Post:

quote:

“Those who handed themselves over will face fair trials,” Barawi pledged. “They will have to bear the consequences of their actions against the fighters of the Palestinian people.”
jpost


It seems Hamas favours the death sentence for its own members who collaborate with the enemy. In this respect, they are not so different from many other military organisations we might name. The US military, for example, can sentence a deserter to the death penalty, although it has not done so for a good many years.

The point is not that Hamas is whiter than the driven snow - clearly it is not. But it is certainly no worse than each of the Israeli administrations.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 1:55:17 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Hamas were democratically elected by the Palestinians, who presumably felt that the corruption of Fatah and the long time failed diplomacy between Fatah and Israel needed to be challenged.

quote:


However, there is a major difference between Hamas and Israel in this respect. Israel has a fully functioning pseudo-democratic system which allows the chosen ones to make clear decisions about, and issue orders to instruct others to work on its behalf. Hamas does not have this luxury, because Israel continually kills the leaders of the party and damages and destroys the infrastructure which would allow a fully functioning 'government' to arise in Gaza.


A slight contradiction here. I don't think it can be safely said that Palestine is in the predicament it finds itself solely due to the actions of Israel. Also people deserve the leaders they elect so tough shit if they chose to elect a bunch of thugs. This view that civilians are not a legitimate target is a bit old fashioned considering the state of the modern world.

People have to realise that each side is just as bad as the other and leave it at that. It's outside sympathy that helps fuel the ignorant self-righteous beliefs of those on both sides.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/28/2010 1:59:13 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:09:38 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Hamas were democratically elected by the Palestinians, who presumably felt that the corruption of Fatah and the long time failed diplomacy between Fatah and Israel needed to be challenged.

quote:


However, there is a major difference between Hamas and Israel in this respect. Israel has a fully functioning pseudo-democratic system which allows the chosen ones to make clear decisions about, and issue orders to instruct others to work on its behalf. Hamas does not have this luxury, because Israel continually kills the leaders of the party and damages and destroys the infrastructure which would allow a fully functioning 'government' to arise in Gaza.


A slight contradiction here. I don't think it can be safely said that Palestine is in the predicament it finds itself solely due to the actions of Israel and people deserve the leaders they elect.

People have to realise that each side is just as bad as the other and leave it at that. It's outside sympathy that helps fuel the ignorant self-righteous beliefs of those on both sides.



No contradiction. The people chose Hamas, and Israel chose economic blockade and a policy of assassination and military strike. It always makes me laugh when the Israel fan club come out with lines like 'But Hamas doesn't recognise the right of Israel to exist!'. So what? Likud doesn't recognise the right of Palestine to exist.

Just for the record, I'm not sure I agree with your 'people deserve the leaders they elect'. It leads to the conclusion that 'if they elect Hamas and get killed and starved as a consequence, then its their own fault.' Obviously, that's not what you are saying, but it is the favoured justification for ignoring Israeli war crimes. People usually get the leaders they elect. Whether they deserve to suffer collectively for making that choice - well, that's another matter.

If all else was equal, I'd go with your last sentence. Unfortunately, one of the offending parties is being bankrolled by the US, which makes it difficult to 'leave it'.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:18:14 PM   
MasterNJ20


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

A couple of points...

Firstly, Israel is a terrorist state. And a racist terrorist state at that. There can be no denying it.

I will deny it, but like I said I wanted a discussion focused on Palestine because it is always on Israel

The idea that 'the Palestinians' are terrorists is as objectionable as the idea that 'the Jews' are bastards. Hopefully, you will see the logic in this - painting a whole group of people as fascists isn't really accurate or helpful.

Due to minor factions, Iran and syrian factions, as wel as independent terrorists, saying "Hamas" isn't helpful either, unfortunately. I was forced to use a more accurate term. Saying "the Israelis" are bombing civilians is in the same vein.

That Hamas is a terror group cannot be escaped. Clearly any group which employs random attacks on civilians is engaged in terrorism. In this respect the Israelis and Hamas are not much different from each other.

White Phosphorus is the weapon of choice of Israel as well as (recently) Hamas. There are many reports of Israel using White Phosphorus munitions in a way which endangers civilian populations. The use of this sort of weapon against civilians by both sides can only be deplored.

Again going back to blame on Israel.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It would be very difficult, if not impossible for any party within Gaza to conduct pseudo-military operations against Israel without doing so from areas where civilian populations live.

Regarding the specific questions asked:

quote:

How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are either A) Willing to fire rockets into civilian population centers


Hamas were democratically elected by the Palestinians, who presumably felt that the corruption of Fatah and the long time failed diplomacy between Fatah and Israel needed to be challenged. In any case, targeting civilians is, as we have already discussed, a tactic employed by both sides of the argument. In order to censure one party, one should be willing to censure the other. Are you willing to censure Israel's targeting of civilians?

Again, going back to Israel

quote:

How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are... too incompetent to arrest and prosecute those who do?


Again, this is an accusation that can be levelled at both sides of the argument. Israel is unwilling to prosecute its own war criminals, and when it does start a prosecution it usually finds in favour of the defendants or levies sentences which are insignificant. If one is willing to censure one side, then the other too should be given fair criticism.

Again going back to Israel


However, there is a major difference between Hamas and Israel in this respect. Israel has a fully functioning pseudo-democratic system which allows the chosen ones to make clear decisions about, and issue orders to instruct others to work on its behalf. Hamas does not have this luxury, because Israel continually kills the leaders of the party and damages and destroys the infrastructure which would allow a fully functioning 'government' to arise in Gaza. It should come as a surprise to no-one to see that Hamas is not fully in control of itself or its operatives and that since it is unable to police Gaza adequately, it cannot be held fully responsible for what happens there. In a sense, what we are seeing is a fully functioning state in conflict with a damaged and dysfunctional militia. Under these circumstances, peace is going to be impossible to achieve.

During the lull before operation Cast Lead Hamas showed it ability to both slow the rate of rocket fire and even arrested one such independent group but released them with no charges.Hamas COULD be a very capable group, however chose to release the independent group and failed to stop other such groups. It was also criticized by Egypt for causing the escalation in November.

quote:

How do you justify firing rockets from dense population centers as the Human Rights Watch has stated?


How do you justify Israel launching heavy artillery into densely populated civilian areas, as the whole world has stated? Gaza is a densely populated ghetto. It is impossible to perform active resistance to Israeli attempts to destroy Palestine without acting from dense population centres.

Again back to Israel, however this time with a point. I justify the firing into civilian areas with the kill ration I've discussed before. Israel kills 1 militant per 3 civilians since 2000, showing that they can clearly aim at military operations within civilian populations. There are open spaces for Hamas to use, or using Hamas buildings instead of schools and hospitals as rocket firing positions.

quote:

How do you justify leadership which murders its own people and does not produce evidence that they did anything wrong?


How does Israel justify its policy of murder and assassination abroad? 

Back to Israel. However killing a military commander (such as a Hamas officer) is legal in international law.

According to the Jerusalem Post:

quote:

“Those who handed themselves over will face fair trials,” Barawi pledged. “They will have to bear the consequences of their actions against the fighters of the Palestinian people.”
jpost


It seems Hamas favours the death sentence for its own members who collaborate with the enemy. In this respect, they are not so different from many other military organisations we might name. The US military, for example, can sentence a deserter to the death penalty, although it has not done so for a good many years.

The point is not that Hamas is whiter than the driven snow - clearly it is not. But it is certainly no worse than each of the Israeli administrations.

My point is there is so much criticism about Israel but even YOU are forced to argue "well Israel is the same or worse". This argument is invalid. If Hamas and other palestinian leadership is about as bad as Israel even from the pro Palestinian view point... why is criticism pointed at Israel? This is clear propaganda against Israel.


(in reply to hertz)
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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:25:20 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Israel wouldn't be the only democratic state in the world that tramples over human rights but it makes a nice diversion from the actions of our governments in the west and makes us feel a little superior. There is plenty wrong with the world, that has resulted from the past actions of our governments, so therefore I've never really understood the focus on such a small part of it. I'm not pro Israel I'm past caring. We ultimately as civilians pay for the actions of our government, there is no point arguing about the justness of that, it is what it is.


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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:35:44 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		The point about Israel is that alone amongst all the appalling and disgusting terrorist groups of the world, Israel gets the full support of a superpower and a rag-tag assortment of fundamentalist Christians, foreign Zionists, racists and others. This is why the behaviour of Israel needs to be highlighted again and again.

MasterNJ20, you seem to have completely missed the point of my reply. I am not excusing the behaviour of Hamas. The points you raise are indeed cause to be a little less than fully supportive of them.

Israel is no better. But I don't expect you to give up your support for terrorism just because I do not support terrorism.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:46:47 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
The point about Israel is that alone amongst all the appalling and disgusting terrorist groups of the world, Israel gets the full support of a superpower and a rag-tag assortment of fundamentalist Christians, foreign Zionists, racists and others. This is why the behaviour of Israel needs to be highlighted again and again.

Not a nation full of people just trying to get by on a day to day basis then? I think there is a lot of paranoia in that statement above and not much reality. Israel is an imperfect society, all societies are. Nobody has got it right yet to my knowledge.

I don't know what the US gets out of funding Israel, I think they just like interfering. They do the same in South Korea and Japan, it's the brave new age of military empire building. They even tried to occupy the moon once, who's going to threaten them from there, I'm not sure? They only left west Germany a few years back.


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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 2:52:18 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		I am sure there are many in Israel who just want to get by on a day to day basis.

Unfortunately, when I see the racist ass-holes who get elected to government by the Israeli voters, that tells me that they are a very small minority. It seems that many in Israel are only interested in colonising more of Palestine and evicting more Palestinians from their homes.

I don't think the US gets much out of it. But the Israel lobby practically runs the US.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 3:00:55 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		They in Israel are coming to terms with the problems associated with calling every member of one the world's religions to a tiny piece of land in the back end of nowhere. It's nothing personal just the overpopulation problems to be expected from a short-sighted political policy.

They wanted to be an exciting and welcoming new state, similar to like when the US was founded but nobody bothered to consider the difference in land mass of the two regions. Someone high up should have consulted the Atlas.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/28/2010 3:04:49 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 3:07:38 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
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Status: offline 		Can't argue with that, really...

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 3:28:56 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20






My question is this, to those who support what Palestine does: How do you justify trying to bring in powers which are either A) Willing to fire rockets into civilian population centers or B) Are too incompetent to arrest and prosecute those who do?

How do you justify firing rockets from dense population centers as the Human Rights Watch has stated?



I have been one of the people who has repeatedly laid the charge of "war crimes" at Israel's door. So thanks, MasterNJ20, for the opportunity to balance the score.

I condemn absolutely ALL war crimes. I don't care who commits them or why. The justice or otherwise of their cause is irrelevant. The ethical or otherwise behaviour of the 'other side' is irrelevant.

So I condemn without reservation Hamas and Hezbollah indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel. These are war crimes. Those responsible for these acts ought to be arrested, given a fair trail and the severest sentence if found guilty. Exactly the same should happen to those Israelis responsible for firing artillery/rockets into Palestinian or Lebanese civilian areas. Fair is fair.

B) Are too incompetent to arrest and prosecute those who do?
It's a bit hard to have a functioning security system if Israel continually destroys your police stations and murders your police personnel. As I note Israel was unsuccessful in preventing the shooting of rockets into Israel while it ruled Gaza, it seems you might be proposing the exclusion of the Israeli Govt from any peace talks. I'm not sure that that is what you want.

If it is your argument that "terrorists" ought not enter into negotiations, then let me remind you that too excludes Israel, which was of course founded by terrorists and includes a number of ex(?)-terrorists amongst its Prime Ministers.

Let me re-iterate. I find all war crimes equally despicable. Whether they are committed by Palestinians, Israelis or any other nationality. Thanks again for the opportunity to balance the score.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 3:58:51 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Firstly, Israel is a terrorist state. And a racist terrorist state at that. There can be no denying it.

Oh yeah there can be no denying it just as no one ever defends Israel against such baseless accusations.

quote:


The idea that 'the Palestinians' are terrorists is as objectionable as the idea that 'the Jews' are bastards. Hopefully, you will see the logic in this - painting a whole group of people as fascists isn't really accurate or helpful.

and yet this is exactly what Hertz does here...
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
I am sure there are many in Israel who just want to get by on a day to day basis.

Unfortunately, when I see the racist ass-holes who get elected to government by the Israeli voters, that tells me that they are a very small minority. It seems that many in Israel are only interested in colonising more of Palestine and evicting more Palestinians from their homes.

In essence Hertz implies the majority of Israeli's are the same as the supposed "racist ass-holes" they elect. This is more nonsense. Israeli's have repeatedly elected politicians on peace mandates. By contrast the Gazan's elected Hamas in 2006 at a time when they publicly stated they would continue to fight Israel

quote:


Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It would be very difficult, if not impossible for any party within Gaza to conduct pseudo-military operations against Israel without doing so from areas where civilian populations live.

This sounds susiciously like a justification for Hamas' tactics. Whilst Gaza is densely populated, it is not one of the most densely populated areas in the world. There is much pastoral land and areas that are less densely populated than the city.

quote:


However, there is a major difference between Hamas and Israel in this respect. Israel has a fully functioning pseudo-democratic system which allows the chosen ones to make clear decisions about, and issue orders to instruct others to work on its behalf. Hamas does not have this luxury, because Israel continually kills the leaders of the party and damages and destroys the infrastructure which would allow a fully functioning 'government' to arise in Gaza. It should come as a surprise to no-one to see that Hamas is not fully in control of itself or its operatives and that since it is unable to police Gaza adequately, it cannot be held fully responsible for what happens there. In a sense, what we are seeing is a fully functioning state in conflict with a damaged and dysfunctional militia. Under these circumstances, peace is going to be impossible to achieve.


Utterly untrue. Hamas is widely feared in Gaza and carries out executions of its opponents. It runs the region with an iron fist to say the least. It is widely known it has a moral police which harasses the civilians and limits the freedom of women in a very drastic way. A few months back there were reports in the media about brutality such as the bodies of opponents appearing on the shores of Gaza etc.

Hertz continues with other crap about Israel wanting to destroy Palestine whilst Hamas "resists", that Israel randomly targets civilians when we dealt with that old lie on the other thread etc. These people repeat the same old lies again again and again. NJ20 I know you mean well but I don't think its a good idea to encourage these "people" to post their reams of nonsense - the moral here is that hatred motivates like little else and others defending can't keep up despite their resolve.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 11/28/2010 4:08:53 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 4:00:58 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It's a bit hard to have a functioning security system if Israel continually destroys your police stations and murders your police personnel. As I note Israel was unsuccessful in preventing the shooting of rockets into Israel while it ruled Gaza, it seems you might be proposing the exclusion of the Israeli Govt from any peace talks. I'm not sure that that is what you want.

If it is your argument that "terrorists" ought not enter into negotiations, then let me remind you that too excludes Israel, which was of course founded by terrorists and includes a number of ex(?)-terrorists amongst its Prime Ministers.

Let me re-iterate. I find all war crimes equally despicable. Whether they are committed by Palestinians, Israelis or any other nationality. Thanks again for the opportunity to balance the score.


Even when trying extra hard to appear balanced Tweakabelle can't resist putting the boot in to Israel regardless of the "opportunity". lol Now Hertz (see abve) is getting in on the act of trying to appear balanced by criticising Hamas whilst simultaneously demonising Israel. The so called "police personnel" Israel "murders" were indeed members of Hamas' own brigades. Despite what Hertz and Tweakabelle say Hamas runs Gaza with an iron fist with extra-judicial killing.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 11/28/2010 4:01:46 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 4:08:44 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3



People have to realise that each side is just as bad as the other and leave it at that. It's outside sympathy that helps fuel the ignorant self-righteous beliefs of those on both sides.


While i agree that both sides are as bad as each other, I'm sorry but I refuse to accept that there is nothing outsiders can do.

We can make sure that the world knows and understands the truth of what is happening there. We can point out that if both are as bad as each other, pre-conditions to peace talks such as "We don't negotiate with 'terrorists" have the effect (if not the aim) of postponing peace talks permanently. We can propose to our Govts that they place bans on the export of arms to the region. If both sides are equally bad, why arm one or the other?

There are heaps of other things individuals in the West and elsewhere can do. That both peoples are failed by their truly obnoxious leaders is not a good reason to abandon the ordinary people in my book.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/28/2010 4:09:43 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 4:23:08 PM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		Sorry for condensing my responses to multiple posts into one post:
I felt tweakabelle gave a go at being balanced and although did mention Israel as a causation showing bias in my opinion... at least said there should be a fair trial for both sides and I agree there has been wrong doing by Israel, not to the extent tweakabelle says but at least there was some effort at saying Hamas is inexcusable.

Hertz, on the other hand, contradicted himself with supporting Hamas as elected, but saying it does not reflect on the people even though Israel's government reflects on its people. Mentioned Israel at every turn.

In my opinion it is the difference between someone who reads biased news against Israel and someone who hates Israel.

For tweakabelle I suggest reading the responses to the Goldstone report since you decided to bring up Israel being tried, it is a good defensive paper to many of the accusations.

I feel I was too optimistic over all to think a pro-Palestinian would address these issues without citing Israel. "I find your point very valid" is probablly the closest I would get and I have no clue who TribeTziyon supports. SL4V3M4YB3 also stayed on topic, and I don't expect people to feel sympathy for Israel and shower it with adoration or sympathy for Hamas' actions. I expect people who debate on this to understand Hamas' actions which is why I made this thread.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/28/2010 10:58:20 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20

Sorry for condensing my responses to multiple posts into one post:
I felt tweakabelle gave a go at being balanced and although did mention Israel as a causation showing bias in my opinion... at least said there should be a fair trial for both sides and I agree there has been wrong doing by Israel, not to the extent tweakabelle says but at least there was some effort at saying Hamas is inexcusable.

For tweakabelle I suggest reading the responses to the Goldstone report since you decided to bring up Israel being tried, it is a good defensive paper to many of the accusations.




Thank you for your appreciation of my efforts at being balanced. I do appreciate it. And i appreciate your agreement that both sides are guilty of war crimes.

I took your advice and watched the video at the www.now site and read the Human Rights Watch report.
Firstly i agreed with every word in the Human Rights Watch report. Unreservedly.
Despite the obvious propagandistic overtones of the video, I agree with its condemnation of war crimes violations by Hamas. I just wished the video had applied an equal standard to Israeli behaviour.

I am somewhat puzzled by your description of both these reports as "defensive". I presume by this you are suggesting that they, in some way, exonerate or mitigate Israeli excesses. If I am mistaken, please forgive me and kindly clarify what you meant.

In my first post I stated clearly my view that:
"I condemn absolutely ALL war crimes. I don't care who commits them or why. The justice or otherwise of their cause is irrelevant. The ethical or otherwise behaviour of the 'other side' is irrelevant. "

Hamas must be brought to brook for its many war crimes. Just as Israeli war crimes in no way excuse Hamas' war crimes, Hamas' war crimes in no way excuse Israeli war crimes. Both sides only discredit the cause they claim to serve by behaving in this fashion.

The Goldstone Report, IMHO, establishes a prima facae case against multiple participants on both sides in the Gaza invasion. Elsewhere I have suggested that, failing action by each side to try those accused, the appropriate forum to answer these accusations and determine guilt or innocence in these matters is the International Court at The Hague. I hope we can agree on this point too.


(in reply to MasterNJ20)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 3:52:07 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		For a unique perspective on the Middle East - and why it suits some people to keep the pot boiling, check this out:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-oceans-of-blood-and-profits-for-the-mongers-of-war-2145037.html

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 4:05:50 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I knew that, war is good for business, which has made me ask the question on another thread that devolved into the usual pro-anti scrap was military action nothing more than a business tool.

But perhaps  if people care to uncover the root of conflict, it is a wise action to dig down beneath all the ideaological icing and see what really is propelling  the disagreement that seems to blow out of all proportions every time, just dig down and find who, what business interest the situation benefits other than just sheer profiteering and a testing ground  for weapons manufacturers.

But as an easy indication, just looks at the tools used in war, any war, and find the manufacturers and seek out what profit they are making supplying the weapons that costs not only the taxes of the people, but their blood too.

But of the weapons manufacturing companies,who are the largest, and to which country are the belonging, then see the corporate beast of war making profit from the blood of people, any people for blood is the same.

For any country to take a higher moral stance in war, they have to be sure their companies that make weapons of war and not making money from war.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 20
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