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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 3:50:18 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

but i don't know if she ever answered for herself the question that i put to her once which was what do you want a Dominant or a kinky boyfriend.



Perhaps what she needed wasn't one or the other but what so many of us have, someone who is both and more. He's dominant to me, he's also a kinky boyfriend, a partner in life and my best friend. I wouldn't settle for less than all. Why do you believe that one person can't fulfill multiple needs and roles, that to get one part of you fulfilled the rest must remain empty?


_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 4:51:03 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I believe part of the problem is that we talk a lot about the need for the submissive to trust the dominant, but we often forget the dominant needs to trust the submissive as well. If they are open to communication and ask about our feelings, then they need to rely on our truthfulness. If they 'don't want to hear it' and have communicated that clearly, then they need to depend on the fact that we will manage our feelings on our own.
I think understanding that trust is a two way street comes with experience.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 6:52:51 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

So my question is this: To me, part of submission, the part that feeds me the most, is in fact doing something when it is difficult or hard for me.

However where does that part end (the sucking it up and obeying even when i might not want to) and where does it become a lie that can end up destroying a relationship?

Knowing my friend, had he known how troubled she was, he would have talked with her about it, maybe changed somethings until she was more comfortable, etc., but he didn't know because she kept telling him things were good and acting like things were good. Now she says, she was just saying what it is she thought he wanted to hear.

So where is the line between being obedient when it is hard, and not being emotional transparent and honest so the the Dominant has all the information that He or She needs to run the relationship? How do you handle that if you are an s-type? What do you require of your s-types if you are a D-type?

Hopefully these questions make sense and i look forward to your responses,
heartfelt


M would positively dislike me * putting up with stuff* and hiding it. In fact, it'd be one of the few things that would horrify him, 'though he'd think I was a silly mare as I have no excuse to do so.

I only have to think of that in reverse to understand how revolted I'D feel.

The line between doing stuff I *don't want to* and *pretending I do* never got drawn. I have nothing riding on being submissively pleasing as I don't have those feelings as a rule.

If I'm *putting up* with something, it's because he intended it. It doesn't matter to me if he KNOWS I am and it doesn't matter to him if I am.

agirl

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 7:24:19 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		I think that in healthy relationships there is room for a certain amount of privacy.  Privacy, however, is different than out and out lying.  The saying "everything is fine" is a common newbie mistake.  I mean, if we look back on our early relationships - generally - we often will tell people that everything is fine in order to spare them something, out of our own insecurities, or because we aren't ready to talk about things.  Nothing wrong with that.  However, as trust builds, so does disclosure, so does noting your loved one's reactions. 

I have learned the hard way that emotional transparency and honesty can be like handing someone a hammer so they can hit you on the head with it.  Building trust takes time and experience.  What to me is an elephant in the living room is the notion that just because someone is a submissive in a relationship, they need to be emotionally transparent.  So, too, the belief that a dominant person should be able to read the other person.  These things take time, attention, and wisdom.  That seems forgotten sometimes.

best,
sunshine

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 7:26:21 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Her (sub):
Lying by omission is still lying.


This. She was lying to him by pretending everything was great when it wasn't. I don't know how much he could have been expected to read her mind, frankly. And usually I'm comfortable handing everyone the blame (I suppose it could be asked how much he pushed her limits and was surprised to find no resistance, for example) but honestly, if you don't give your Dom all the information they can't possibly know what to do with you.

I always speak up if I'm uncomfortable. Sometimes it drives my Dom crazy, because I won't stop speaking up and detailing out every little uncomfortable moment. Sometimes he tells me to shut up and just do it anyway and we'll analyze it later. But he would never want me to keep my feelings a secret, because he's trying to dominate me. Domination requires honesty.

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 7:49:28 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		On the other hand I've known more than enough people who can't handle honesty, who will shoot the messenger if you will. If you get punished for telling the truth and don't get punished for lying by omission, then you will lie by omission because you will have learned that his ego is too fragile to accept the truth. And we don't know if this is the case, as it so often is.

If you have to approach someone with extreme tact and careful wording, what you're really saying is that he can't handle the bald truth.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 8:05:20 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

So where is the line between being obedient when it is hard, and not being emotional transparent and honest so the the Dominant has all the information that He or She needs to run the relationship? How do you handle that if you are an s-type? heartfelt


Kudos for asking such a subtle question. The fine points too often are not discussed here or are drowned in the obvious and repetitive questions.

It's a fine line and like many psychologically fine lines you learn to discern it with your feelings. When you are being obedient when it is hard, you will feel a joy associated with it. You request two glasses of wine on a weekend night and your master allows you only one? He's denied me! Frustration at not being able to get as drunk as you wanted but Joy at the control! You beg him to let you off your exercise regieme just this one night because you are tired and want to play on Collarme? 'Get on the treadmill, NOW.' Joy again, at being forced against your will and desires.

But then maybe there is this: you're terrified of going alone to a science fiction con, because you're impossibly shy and despite being beautiful are terrified that others will hate you, reject you, make fun of you, etc. and he insists you go anway and you feel just stark staring terror. No joy at being pushed through an emotional limit. Just increasing social fears. There's the point where there is a problem and you must talk frankly with your master or dominant about what you feel, and communicate the intensity of your feelings. Then you leave it up to him, and if he still demands you go to the con alone, you go. Try your best. Take comfort in the fact that you're there fulfilling his orders. Maybe leave early if you cannot bear it.

But the point is this: listen to your emotions and watch your physical reactions to an order. When you feel sick to your stomach at something or horrified or terror, or even unexpected anger...disgust, and so on, that is when you swallow your pride at being a good submissive who can "take anything". This is the point where it is incumbent upon you to beg your master leave to speak your mind. And speak it as frankly and with as much detail as you can so he can make an informed decision.

< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 12/4/2010 8:07:28 PM >

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 9:19:30 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
On the other hand I've known more than enough people who can't handle honesty, who will shoot the messenger if you will. If you get punished for telling the truth and don't get punished for lying by omission, then you will lie by omission because you will have learned that his ego is too fragile to accept the truth. And we don't know if this is the case, as it so often is.

If you have to approach someone with extreme tact and careful wording, what you're really saying is that he can't handle the bald truth.


You're right, of course. There are people who are so tempestuous or fragile that you have to keep things from them so you don't wound their ego and get punished for it. But I wouldn't want to be in a relationship like that, and I have a really hard time understanding how anyone like that could be a successful Dom/me. If the woman in question felt that she was in one of those relationships, then she did the right thing ending it.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/4/2010 11:32:47 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:


So where is the line between being obedient when it is hard, and not being emotional transparent and honest so the the Dominant has all the information that He or She needs to run the relationship? How do you handle that if you are an s-type? What do you require of your s-types if you are a D-type?
Hopefully these questions make sense and i look forward to your responses,
heartfelt


1-This is instant boing woodie level awesome, Succinctly put: To me, part of submission, the part that feeds me the most, is in fact doing something when it is difficult or hard for me.

2-Fuck, I'm a pig. I want everything of her. I want her heart, I want her mind, I want her body. I want her soul. That means she has no lines in her life where I can't go. Now there are some I allow her but make no mistake about it, they are mine and should I wish to transgress into those zones, oh well.

3-The line is simple. When I look her in the eye and use the no fucking around voice (you know, the one that says I'm not asking to be polite, I wanna know, and I wanna know NOW!) and say tell me what's going on-that's the line. She can squirm, she can twist, she can try and dodge, (And she does. Subs/slaves absolutely suck at soul baring, Sorry but it's true. She "doesn't want to bother me". Yeah, like that's her decision to make.) but I'm gonna find out what I need to know. Should she fail to comply, then I would categorize it as disobedience.

4- Love means trusting the other persons love for you.

5-Tying back into what I was saying in comment 2, who the hell is she to make calls for me in my life and relationship. I can't make informed decisions w/o accurate information. If I can't make informed decisions, I can't make consistently good decisions. More importantly, when she decides to withhold, she is excercising power in a relationship where she has none. She is overstepping her boundaries and moving into my jurisdiction and that is an absolute no-no, maybe the worst misstep she can make.

JMHO


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:19:34 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

but i don't know if she ever answered for herself the question that i put to her once which was what do you want a Dominant or a kinky boyfriend.



Perhaps what she needed wasn't one or the other but what so many of us have, someone who is both and more. He's dominant to me, he's also a kinky boyfriend, a partner in life and my best friend. I wouldn't settle for less than all. Why do you believe that one person can't fulfill multiple needs and roles, that to get one part of you fulfilled the rest must remain empty?



The problem that i saw was that when he didn't just do as she wanted (this was nearer the beginning of their relationship), she tended to react badly to that, which caused him to impliment more stricter control which she said she needed. It appeared to me that she wanted some one who was kinky, who did S/M play, but didn't really have control over her life, which is not what she said that she wanted with her words.

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:27:46 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I believe part of the problem is that we talk a lot about the need for the submissive to trust the dominant, but we often forget the dominant needs to trust the submissive as well. If they are open to communication and ask about our feelings, then they need to rely on our truthfulness. If they 'don't want to hear it' and have communicated that clearly, then they need to depend on the fact that we will manage our feelings on our own.
I think understanding that trust is a two way street comes with experience.


i aboslutely concur, thank you for your reply Catize. In this particular instance, the girl in question, had been trained in a previous relationship that her thoughts, her needs were not important. That is not how my Dominant friend runs his relationships (having been his submissive for almost 4 years, i can vouch for that) But she and i are different people, i had worked long and hard on healing internal issues that kept me from being able to be honest and vulnerable and she, fortunately or unfortunately, is still working through hers. Both of them have learned i think, how important it is for the D-type to be able to trust that the s-type is telling them the truth and not just what she thinks he wants to hear.

my friend is also looking at himself to see if he inadvertently did anything to give her that impression, which was never his intent.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:34:24 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Agirl, you make an interesting point, if someone is a slave in a relationship (which is how i think you identify, please forgive me if i am wrong) but is not particularly submissive or desirous of being pleasing (not casting aspersions, yet remembering something you wrote), then i think being honest about how one feels about an activity might be easier. But if someone needs to be pleasing, it can really inhibit (beyond the other things like being scared of having one's words used against you, etc.) one's ability to honestly say, this activity, action, etc. is hurtful to me emotionally because we become afraid of not being pleasing.

Thank you for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:38:53 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I think that in healthy relationships there is room for a certain amount of privacy.  Privacy, however, is different than out and out lying.  The saying "everything is fine" is a common newbie mistake.  I mean, if we look back on our early relationships - generally - we often will tell people that everything is fine in order to spare them something, out of our own insecurities, or because we aren't ready to talk about things.  Nothing wrong with that.  However, as trust builds, so does disclosure, so does noting your loved one's reactions. 

I have learned the hard way that emotional transparency and honesty can be like handing someone a hammer so they can hit you on the head with it.  Building trust takes time and experience.  What to me is an elephant in the living room is the notion that just because someone is a submissive in a relationship, they need to be emotionally transparent.  So, too, the belief that a dominant person should be able to read the other person.  These things take time, attention, and wisdom.  That seems forgotten sometimes.

best,
sunshine


Sunshine, thank you for your reply. You touch on a couple of interesting ideas. Many Masters that i know, require from their slaves total disclosure, for the reasons that i have mentioned earlier or have been mentioned earlier in that they need the information to be able to lead well. Some slaves i know are not allowed any privacy. i am not saying that is the case with every submissive i know, but it is the case with most slaves that i know. So i may have been making an assumption that you see as an elephant in the room.

i can also see where, especially if one has been open and honest and had it used against you, which is the case with the s-type in the relationship that prompted the question, that it would be very difficult to actually be honest again.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:45:46 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Her (sub):
Lying by omission is still lying.


This. She was lying to him by pretending everything was great when it wasn't. I don't know how much he could have been expected to read her mind, frankly. And usually I'm comfortable handing everyone the blame (I suppose it could be asked how much he pushed her limits and was surprised to find no resistance, for example) but honestly, if you don't give your Dom all the information they can't possibly know what to do with you.

I always speak up if I'm uncomfortable. Sometimes it drives my Dom crazy, because I won't stop speaking up and detailing out every little uncomfortable moment. Sometimes he tells me to shut up and just do it anyway and we'll analyze it later. But he would never want me to keep my feelings a secret, because he's trying to dominate me. Domination requires honesty.


Part of what was at issue in this particular relationship was that the Dominant in question is poly. However the s-type in question also said that she was poly and that she is bi-sexual as well. Because my friend is not an idiot, he knows that just because someone is bi-sexual does not mean that they are automatically attracted to the same other women that he might be, so he allowed her to point out women that she was personally interested in and if he was also interested in them, they would pursue some "play" or maybe more, giving her a level of control with the intention of making her feel safer. However that did not help the situation ultimately.

As you said in your second paragraph, there were times that he wanted her to speak up, but there were also times that he wanted her to just shut up and obey, after she has said the same things many times and he had already gotten the message.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 6:48:47 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Kana, thank you for your reply. It lets me see very well the Dominant perspective as you see it. i have to agree with some of what you wrote, i know i personally suck at the honesty thing, not wanting to be a bother leaps to mind immediately.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 7:00:38 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Kana, thank you for your reply. It lets me see very well the Dominant perspective as you see it. i have to agree with some of what you wrote, i know i personally suck at the honesty thing, not wanting to be a bother leaps to mind immediately.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt


Don't feel bad re the honesty thing. In my experience, it's more rather than less common in slaves/subs.

What I can say is that, from the dominant side, it can be very frustrating sometimes.  Now generally, if I ask something and she demurs, I give her space if it's not that important to me. Though I own all of her, I think everyone needs some privacy and has a right to some personal space (It's just healthy) so I don't pry-besides, experience has shown that the truth will come out in time and I am a patient guy-so I wait.

But, on the occasions that I do want to know...FOR WHATEVER REASON...it's kinda annoying to get slave speak back.

Master-Whatcha thinking?
Slave-Nothing.
M-What's going on
S-Nothing
M-I dunno, I think somethings running around up there.
S-I'm fine (and we all know what fine means).
M-Talk to me.
S-I don't wanna bother you. My problems aren't that important. It's no big deal (as she gets in the ambulance).
M-Look, I asked a direct question. I want a direct answer. We are a we, which means what effects you has ramifications on me. Divulge.
S-(making circles with her toes, looking down, got that teeny voice) Really, It's nothing.
M-(Getting annoyed and remembering why/how women drive men to drink) Grrrrrrrrrr...............Talk Wench!
S-Performs an act of emotional vomiting that leaves both parties astounded, emotionally exhausted, and gasping.
M-See, that wasn't so hard.

< Message edited by Kana -- 12/5/2010 7:05:07 AM >

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 7:07:45 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Wow, have you been listening into to some of my past conversations (chuckling). i try now to say this instead. Yes something is bothering me, i am having a hard time getting it out. But in the past, it was just as your described.

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 7:24:46 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		QFT, man. QFT
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Kana, thank you for your reply. It lets me see very well the Dominant perspective as you see it. i have to agree with some of what you wrote, i know i personally suck at the honesty thing, not wanting to be a bother leaps to mind immediately.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt


Don't feel bad re the honesty thing. In my experience, it's more rather than less common in slaves/subs.

What I can say is that, from the dominant side, it can be very frustrating sometimes.  Now generally, if I ask something and she demurs, I give her space if it's not that important to me. Though I own all of her, I think everyone needs some privacy and has a right to some personal space (It's just healthy) so I don't pry-besides, experience has shown that the truth will come out in time and I am a patient guy-so I wait.

But, on the occasions that I do want to know...FOR WHATEVER REASON...it's kinda annoying to get slave speak back.

Master-Whatcha thinking?
Slave-Nothing.
M-What's going on
S-Nothing
M-I dunno, I think somethings running around up there.
S-I'm fine (and we all know what fine means).
M-Talk to me.
S-I don't wanna bother you. My problems aren't that important. It's no big deal (as she gets in the ambulance).
M-Look, I asked a direct question. I want a direct answer. We are a we, which means what effects you has ramifications on me. Divulge.
S-(making circles with her toes, looking down, got that teeny voice) Really, It's nothing.
M-(Getting annoyed and remembering why/how women drive men to drink) Grrrrrrrrrr...............Talk Wench!
S-Performs an act of emotional vomiting that leaves both parties astounded, emotionally exhausted, and gasping.
M-See, that wasn't so hard.



_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 7:36:41 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
and I have a really hard time understanding how anyone like that could be a successful Dom/me. If the woman in question felt that she was in one of those relationships, then she did the right thing ending it.


From the fact that both the op and the woman she is referring to are his exes, I have to wonder how successful he is.

And of course, the fact that the woman referred to is the op's successor may also well be coloring her view of the relationship.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 7:56:51 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
and I have a really hard time understanding how anyone like that could be a successful Dom/me. If the woman in question felt that she was in one of those relationships, then she did the right thing ending it.


From the fact that both the op and the woman she is referring to are his exes, I have to wonder how successful he is.

And of course, the fact that the woman referred to is the op's successor may also well be coloring her view of the relationship.



Just for the record, i am only an ex with him because we are more than 12 years difference in age and our lives started heading in different directions, if that was not the case, he and i would still be together, it was that good. It should have said something when i referenced him as my best friend, but apparently that didn't make it through.

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 40
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