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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 9:13:06 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Master-Whatcha thinking?
Slave-Nothing.
M-What's going on
S-Nothing
M-I dunno, I think somethings running around up there.
S-I'm fine (and we all know what fine means).
M-Talk to me.
S-I don't wanna bother you. My problems aren't that important. It's no big deal (as she gets in the ambulance).
M-Look, I asked a direct question. I want a direct answer. We are a we, which means what effects you has ramifications on me. Divulge.
S-(making circles with her toes, looking down, got that teeny voice) Really, It's nothing.
M-(Getting annoyed and remembering why/how women drive men to drink) Grrrrrrrrrr...............Talk Wench!
S-Performs an act of emotional vomiting that leaves both parties astounded, emotionally exhausted, and gasping.
M-See, that wasn't so hard.

Yup to both posts, but I too think you must be a total sleazy stalker dude. How could you POSSIBLY know???? LOL

Talk about hitting the nail on the head. Worse yet, is when I've told him I need to talk through something with him and then we are sitting and he asks the very same thing and we get the EXACT SAME conversation! Come on, now, I told him something was up and now nothing's wrong at all. It's hilarious actually, unless of course it is in the dead center of such a moment. Blech!!!!!

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 41

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 12:08:17 PM

BurlyBill

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply lovingpet. Knowing them both, having spent a great deal of time with both of them (moreso with him as i have known him longer and was at one time his submissive, now just his best friend), i know that they talked a great deal about his expectations and needs, her expectations and needs. And i know that he adjusted his style of dominance to try to meet more of her needs (which seemed to be for stricter control) and she thanked him for doing so, but i don't know if she ever answered for herself the question that i put to her once which was what do you want a Dominant or a kinky boyfriend.

i know that she struggled, mostly because of her past relationship with thinking that as a submissive it was her place to shut up and obey, that her thoughts were not important. That is NOT how my friend dealt with her, but rather the relationship that she was in before him. He tried to get her to talk to him, thought she was being honest with him, but as i said, in this particular instance, i am not sure if she just wasn't being honest with herself.

quote:

i guess part of my question remains, how does one teach that while yes, i want you to obey and not argue with me, i also want to know when something that i am asking of you is really hard for you. How does one teach that balance, especially to someone who has been wounded by life?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

quote:

i guess part of my question remains, how does one teach that while yes, i want you to obey and not argue with me, i also want to know when something that i am asking of you is really hard for you. How does one teach that balance, especially to someone who has been wounded by life?

I'm trying to quote from one of your posts and because I'm new here don't know if it worked. It refers to how one teaches one to be open and honest in a D/s relationship.

And the answer does not come from a lecture, or a class-room setting, or a text book, does it? It must start right from the beginning. When I meet a sub for the first time, I am where I say I will be, wearing what I say I will be wearing, and we do what I say we will do (begin to get to know each other). I may or may not have asked her if she has a preference about where we meet, I may have told her to dress in a certain way, I may have made other requests prior to the meeting.

And my first question is invariably, "how are you?" I want to know that she's comfortable and, if not, I want her to tell me. I also, if not at this first meeting then very early on, let the sub know that she is perfectly free to ask for anything she wants. I also tell her I will then decide whether or not she gets it. In other words, I guess what I'm doing is telling her I always want to know what she's thinking but that she's not always going to get what she wants.

With all that said, I have had experiences where this desire for open communication did not work. Why? The only answer that I've come up with is that the sub was afraid that if I knew her true feelings about whatever it was that upset her I would consider that a deal-breaker. In other words, she would lose a great deal of what she wanted to hang on to. I don't think that's true on my part, but I think that was the fear on her part.

And I guess the only way to overcome that is time.

Good question and some wonderfully thoughtful answers here. Thanks to you and all.

Bill

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 42

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 2:07:51 PM

HisEvelyn

Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline

Master expects full honesty from me at all times. And I am the sort of woman who wouldn't do it any other way. It's actually one of the things he fell in love with me for. I've never seen the point of saying everything is fine when it's not. Instead, I will tell him exactly what I am thinking about a certain thing, or even if I don't want to talk about it. I don't always like what he asks me to do, but part of our trust is that I will try to do it even if I don't like it, and I will tell him that I don't like it. If I actually tell him I don't think I can manage to do something, he knows it's a serious thing.

Our conversations about things will usually be something like this:

Master: Something's wrong. What is it?
Me: Yeah, I'm upset. I don't really want to talk about it right now.
Master: Tell me.
Me: All right, but please take into account that I'm still processing this and I'm probably not going to explain it well.
Master: Understood. Tell me.
Me: <tells him>

It might seem a bit analytical, but I really am this way. I'll tell him I don't like something, or I don't want to talk about something, or I'm bothered by something. And he has the final decision about whether I do it anyway, or tell him about it anyway. That is the power he holds. He is Master. He is a sadist, so he often enjoys seeing me push myself to do things I don't like or want to do. But he also knows me well enough to know when something is truly beyond my capabilities.

Withholding information on your wellbeing from your Dominant or Master is, in my opinion, highly detrimental, no matter what the situation. If you don't want to bother them, tell them that. There's been plenty of times I have asked politely if I can express myself to my Master, telling him I don't want to bother him if it's a bad time. Then it is his prerogative if he wants to listen right then or have me talk to him later. It's not my place to decide he doesn't want to hear what I have to say.

(in reply to BurlyBill)

Post #: 43

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 2:19:57 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

Well, I can tell you why I don't necessarily want to talk about things going on with me. Simply put, in comparison with what he may be dealing with at the time, my stuff is trivial. I am not minimizing my problems either. They really, truly, and sincerely do pale in comparison. I'd much rather support and encourage him. I understand that I am doing him a disservice by keeping silent. What's going on inside my head is an attempt to suss out the greater of two services. Sometimes keeping his stress level down, making him laugh, and listening to HIS struggles really seems entirely superior. Other times, it's pretty obvious I should be spilling my guts. Again, there's a balance there.

The problem with the whole situation is that I'm not in control of the balance. He is. If he wants to tip the balance the other way, I have to fight my own sense of what is good and right in order to achieve his control and not my own. I don't think it is often that I truly don't want to talk. I just am not always so sure I should. The fact remains, however, that if HE tells me to talk, I'd better just talk and get it over with. Should doesn't get to enter the equation. That doesn't mean I am capable of an automatic mind shift and so the conversation Kana posted ensues. He is working on making those shifts smoother and more automatic, but for now, there is this awkward transition that occurs. I know it frustrates him. Hopefully, there will come a time when I don't have to frustrate him anymore and just accept his control on a dime. Until then, it is a sort of comfy ritual that allows me to feel like I have permission to open up. That's not so terrible.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to HisEvelyn)

Post #: 44

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 2:24:48 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisEvelyn
(snipped for the sake of brevity)

Withholding information on your wellbeing from your Dominant or Master is, in my opinion, highly detrimental, no matter what the situation. If you don't want to bother them, tell them that. There's been plenty of times I have asked politely if I can express myself to my Master, telling him I don't want to bother him if it's a bad time. Then it is his prerogative if he wants to listen right then or have me talk to him later. It's not my place to decide he doesn't want to hear what I have to say.

HisEvelyn, thank you for your response, i really like the part that i bolded. There were times in the past when i didn't make a call, even if i needed to talk or didn't start a conversation because i was afraid it might be a bad time. But just saying that, maintains the Dominant's authority while relieving a submissive's fear that he or she is being a bother. i really like that.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to HisEvelyn)

Post #: 45

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 2:28:51 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Thank you lovingpet for your reply. It is "easier" (that may not be the correct term, but i can't think of another that fits) that it is someone else's call on when to speak up or not. i know because i can handle most things, and part of what i see as my responsibility as a submissive is to make my Dominant's life easier, i have in the past not spoken up when i need to. In those times, i would have preferred, i think, if he had made me. And in most healthy D/s, M/s relationships that i know of, the D or M does tend to make the s-type talk even when it difficult.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 46

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 2:30:51 PM

HisEvelyn

Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline

I understand that mindset, lovingpet. There are definitely times when I know very well my brief moment of angst over something is much less important than my Master's troubles, or that I would much rather be supporting him than moaning about my own issues. Sometimes I don't say anything about my issues until he asks me, but this is usually only because I haven't worked through the thought enough on my own to be ready to discuss it. And sometimes I get upset about something silly and it passes within moments, so it isn't even a blip on the radar.

I used to be a lot more hesitant about opening up about my issues and troubles and uncertainties. Early in our relationship, I would tell him I was upset about something, but didn't want to talk about it. And when he told me to tell him anyway, I would do a bit of the Kana-expressed speech of dodging the conversation. Not to that degree, but some. Then Master talked to me and explained how he prefers to decide what is pertinent to know and what is not. It made a lot of sense to me, so now I just tell him what he wants to know.

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 47

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/5/2010 5:42:40 PM

dory007

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/2/2009
Status: offline

i had a relationship end for very similar reasons. by the time i was able to voice that there were issues, he was way beyond hearing. so after that i separated obedience from communication. i can obey but also can voice a problem with this that or the other thing. staying silent is just a disaster waiting to happen.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 48

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/6/2010 6:53:16 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
and I have a really hard time understanding how anyone like that could be a successful Dom/me. If the woman in question felt that she was in one of those relationships, then she did the right thing ending it.

From the fact that both the op and the woman she is referring to are his exes, I have to wonder how successful he is.

And of course, the fact that the woman referred to is the op's successor may also well be coloring her view of the relationship.

Awww come on Celeste. Most relationships end. You know that. People find out somewhere down the line that while things were great, welllll there's this one thing that we just can't get past. It doesn't mean anyone was wrong or "not successful". I often say that each of my ex-lovers is "a really good man - just not MY good man"... and it's true. They ARE. They just didn't mesh for me at some point for some reason that had nothing to do with whether or not they could be successful with the right woman.

I'm betting that his best friend actually knows him really well. I've always found HFS to be pretty open and aware.

I think maybe Celeste, that you have been in a happy relationship so long that you may have forgotten how hard it is for the rest of us yahoos that are single. It can be brutal - even in the very best of circumstances.

best wishes to you and yours,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 49

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/6/2010 7:03:29 PM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Men have an amazing ability to not listen to a woman's words, just her actions.

OMG, this is so true for my ex! I told him and told him and told him I was leaving, and after I did, he chided me for "sneaking out in the dead of night."

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 50

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/7/2010 2:15:00 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
and I have a really hard time understanding how anyone like that could be a successful Dom/me. If the woman in question felt that she was in one of those relationships, then she did the right thing ending it.

From the fact that both the op and the woman she is referring to are his exes, I have to wonder how successful he is.

And of course, the fact that the woman referred to is the op's successor may also well be coloring her view of the relationship.

Awww come on Celeste. Most relationships end. You know that. People find out somewhere down the line that while things were great, welllll there's this one thing that we just can't get past. It doesn't mean anyone was wrong or "not successful". I often say that each of my ex-lovers is "a really good man - just not MY good man"... and it's true. They ARE. They just didn't mesh for me at some point for some reason that had nothing to do with whether or not they could be successful with the right woman.

I'm betting that his best friend actually knows him really well. I've always found HFS to be pretty open and aware.

I think maybe Celeste, that you have been in a happy relationship so long that you may have forgotten how hard it is for the rest of us yahoos that are single. It can be brutal - even in the very best of circumstances.

best wishes to you and yours,
sunshine

Thank you Sunshinemiss, i was trying not to be snarky to Celeste, so i really thank you for replying.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 51

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/8/2010 5:11:20 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Original: Heartfeltsub
So my question is this: To me, part of submission, the part that feeds me the most, is in fact doing something when it is difficult or hard for me. However where does that part end (the sucking it up and obeying even when i might not want to) and where does it become a lie that can end up destroying a relationship

Well, for me, it line comes the moment she doesn't tell me that there's some rotting carcass that's been swept under the rug. Granted, sometimes it's hard to see those things the exact moment they come up the first time in which case I expect her to tell me when it becomes apparent to her. I need this information. I mean seriously... if the thing is actually causing a cancerous wound in our relationship, then I'd just go ahead and either change the command or change her but I sure as heck am not going to allow such an internal disconnect to ruin my marriage.

These questions get an awful lot easier to answer when you have control over the slave inside and out. When it is fairly straight-forward simply to change the sub so that the thing in question works, then why leave it "not working"? If Carol's struggling she lets me know. Most times I'll change her. Sometimes I'll realize the struggle is pointless and change the command. In either case, it's not that big of a deal.

There was only one time that I was unable to bring her mindset into alignment with mine and I removed the slave collar as a result. That is simply not a tenable position for me. Smaller stuff gets "sucked up". Bigger stuff gets fixed.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 52

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/8/2010 8:51:09 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Emotional transparancy requires TWO people for it to work.

Party one must be emotionally transparent...but if the other half of the relationship flips out...they just trained (and I don't care which side of the kneel you are on) the other party to NOT be open.

Its a learned skill, its one that you start over learning in each relationship, and most people have some topics that are easier to deal with than others. I do a really awesome communication class but I make it clear that I teach from experience, often BAD experience...and make it clear that being open isn't easy on either side but it gets better and most importantly....it is SO worth it.

While her and I were together, it was one thing we did do well was be open with each other, its one of those things you experience that goes on your "must have" lists once you have experienced it.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 53

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 1:32:37 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Thank you Michael for your reply. What you said is very true, that one can be trained and more easily trained to not be open and vulnerable than one can be trained to be open and vulnerable. Having had this experience, my Dominant friend, is now making this part of what he requires. Oddly enough his name is also Michael, what is it with Dominants named Michael. (grinning)

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 54

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 1:35:02 PM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

There was only one time that I was unable to bring her mindset into alignment with mine and I removed the slave collar as a result. That is simply not a tenable position for me. Smaller stuff gets "sucked up". Bigger stuff gets fixed.

*snipped for brevity

Leadership, thank you for your reply. i really like the last two sentences that you have here that smaller stuff gets sucked up and bigger stuff gets fixed. i also think that the s-type needs to be clear when something might seem like small stuff to the D-type, if it is hitting the s-type like big stuff.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 55

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 2:47:47 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Emotional transparancy requires TWO people for it to work.

Party one must be emotionally transparent...but if the other half of the relationship flips out...they just trained (and I don't care which side of the kneel you are on) the other party to NOT be open.

Its a learned skill, its one that you start over learning in each relationship, and most people have some topics that are easier to deal with than others.

This is so very true.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 56

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 6:35:11 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heartfelt:
i also think that the s-type needs to be clear when something might seem like small stuff to the D-type, if it is hitting the s-type like big stuff.

Not necessarily. That needs to happen in my relationship and apparently in yours. I'm mindful of Daddysprop though. For them, this is not such a big deal. They handle the problem in a different way. I absolutely agree though that for any relationship that does want this particular balance, then given the lack of ESP pills on the market, talk is what's left. After all these years, I'm pretty attuned to Carol. But I still miss the boat some of the time.

I also feel I ought to clarify why removing her collar was a fix not a punishment. The actual issue had nothing to do with a failure in obedience... exactly. It had to do with a viewpoint. Carol had gotten to looking at the whole M/s thing as a never-ending struggle where I was going to be placing ever increasing demands on her and life would get tougher and tougher day by day... relentlessly.. forever. In a sense, she was and is correct. Yes, I'm striving for excellence in our marriage and I constantly raise the bar. That's how one gets "excellent". I, however, was more focused on the result of excellence. She was more focused on the struggle to get there. We were not on the same page. I couldn't shake her out of it and despite her best efforts, neither could she. There's no way that her mindset was going to produce any sort of marriage I wanted to be in. So I changed the rules of the game and took the collar off... problem solved... or so I thought *laughs*.

Back to the original question Heartfelt. The rule of thumb I gave Carol was that when something was still an issue in her head days after the event... or when repeat performances are resulting in progressively worse responses in her, then it needs to be talked about. At that point, she's clearly not able to "suck it up". She's tried and failed. So then she notifies me of the problem. I have plenty of tools to fix such problems. But I can't bring any of them to bear if I don't know the issue exists. What I ask of her is to have trust that she cannot disappoint me with such a play. I'm not easily railroaded. It's not possible for her to top me from the bottom (or however her head thinks of that BDSM phrase) because, to quote Michael, I refuse to bottom from the top. Over time, the message has sunk in that it's safe to convey such information. In fact, what's really NOT safe is for me to find that rotting carcass under the rug. THAT tends to get my ire up. I dislike having to cope with a mountain when it could've been dealt with at molehill size.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 57

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 7:53:06 PM

LPslittleclip

Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline

being able to communicate and being able to articulate the problem was one i had with my wife. i knew i was upset about something but i could not express it. it was only with my Mistress that i was able to see that as a service submissive i craved the response for my efforts the recognition. i am completely open with my Mistress She values my viewpoint but the final decision is always Hers

_____________________________

proud to serve the awsome
LadyPact

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 58

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 8:35:11 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

I'm coming to the table a little late here, as I just saw this thread. So many good points here.

I myself spent a lifetime not speaking up. I didn't speak up, I sucked it up, and I suffered...a lot. It was a conditioning of sorts.

And then it all changed. I changed it, because I needed to change it. I decided I was going to be true to myself, and not compromise myself, so if something felt, in my heart, that I was truly compromising myself, I needed to speak up about it. I would no longer lie to myself and/or others and say everything was OK when it wasn't.

I have found I can "obey with grace" and still let him know what's going on in my head and heart. But to do that I had to become self aware enough to know what is affecting me and why, and to be able to articulate that. I speak up if something is disturbing me, by saying "This is really disturbing me" and going on to state why. Then he will decide what we do about it, fully informed.

There are things I may not feel like doing, or that might bug me, but if I know he wants them I'll do them, and tell him later that it was hard or it irritated me, or whatever. But those things that cut deep, and have me feeling internally conflicted, I tell him. I don't say I can't or won't do it (because I will if he insists on it), but I'll tell him how I'm being affected by it. I do us both a disservice by staying quiet. As he said just today when we were talking about some anxiety I had last weekend, "You have to express what's in your heart, so I can understand it and return it to its calm state." He went on to say he knows I have no problem expressing myself when it comes to dealing with issues, so just keep on doing that and we'll always work out what comes up.

The thing is, as has been said here as well, he listens, and it's safe for me to tell him these things. If I didn't feel emotionally safe with him, I wouldn't be able to be this open with him, and this relationship wouldn't work. It does take both parties.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 59

RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/9/2010 11:48:42 PM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

Sounds to me like the sub was not clearly saying how she felt. Or the dom was not "hearing her" Either way the dom at that point can either say ok lets work on this or tuff shit deal with it.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 60

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