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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/10/2010 12:18:10 AM

SexyBossyBBW

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quote:

How do you handle that if you are an s-type? What do you require of your s-types if you are a D-type? ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

This is going to sound simplistic, but in this case, that is how I roll.

I am an unabashed control freak, who also happens to be a decent human being. My man should be my slave, and always accede to my wishes, and demands. Having said that, I always explain that as a smart individual, I expect you to have opinions, and even respectfully disagree with me. I expect honest interaction, and feedback. It is possible for me to lead better, when provided with information I may not have had.

My wishes or orders are to be his command, except when it is difficult/impossible for a significant reason... At those times, I would expect him, to tell me exactly why he would not be willing or able to obey. I grant that he is a reasonable human being, who is honestly in a relationship, where he willingly submits at my pleasure. If serving me is detrimental to him, in a ways not resolvable with open discussions, I would consider us a mismatch. M

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/10/2010 12:14:01 PM

heartfeltsub

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Back to the original question Heartfelt. The rule of thumb I gave Carol was that when something was still an issue in her head days after the event... or when repeat performances are resulting in progressively worse responses in her, then it needs to be talked about. At that point, she's clearly not able to "suck it up". She's tried and failed. So then she notifies me of the problem. I have plenty of tools to fix such problems. But I can't bring any of them to bear if I don't know the issue exists. What I ask of her is to have trust that she cannot disappoint me with such a play. I'm not easily railroaded. It's not possible for her to top me from the bottom (or however her head thinks of that BDSM phrase) because, to quote Michael, I refuse to bottom from the top. Over time, the message has sunk in that it's safe to convey such information. In fact, what's really NOT safe is for me to find that rotting carcass under the rug. THAT tends to get my ire up. I dislike having to cope with a mountain when it could've been dealt with at molehill size.
[/quote]

*snipped for brevity

For the particular couple in question, he, in my presence and at other times, made it abundantly clear that it was a safe environment to speak up, let him know what she was feeling. There were moments when that wasn't allowed at a particular time, like arguing with him in public, but he always made opportunities for her to speak openly to him and he thought she was doing so. What unfortunately he found out was that she was telling him everything was good and working well and then eventually the mountain turned into a volcano which erupted to the death of the relationship. And that did indeed get his ire up as well.

Thank you for your reply,
heartfelt

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/10/2010 12:19:35 PM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I'm coming to the table a little late here, as I just saw this thread. So many good points here.

I myself spent a lifetime not speaking up. I didn't speak up, I sucked it up, and I suffered...a lot. It was a conditioning of sorts.

And then it all changed. I changed it, because I needed to change it. I decided I was going to be true to myself, and not compromise myself, so if something felt, in my heart, that I was truly compromising myself, I needed to speak up about it. I would no longer lie to myself and/or others and say everything was OK when it wasn't.

I have found I can "obey with grace" and still let him know what's going on in my head and heart. But to do that I had to become self aware enough to know what is affecting me and why, and to be able to articulate that. I speak up if something is disturbing me, by saying "This is really disturbing me" and going on to state why. Then he will decide what we do about it, fully informed.

There are things I may not feel like doing, or that might bug me, but if I know he wants them I'll do them, and tell him later that it was hard or it irritated me, or whatever. But those things that cut deep, and have me feeling internally conflicted, I tell him. I don't say I can't or won't do it (because I will if he insists on it), but I'll tell him how I'm being affected by it. I do us both a disservice by staying quiet. As he said just today when we were talking about some anxiety I had last weekend, "You have to express what's in your heart, so I can understand it and return it to its calm state." He went on to say he knows I have no problem expressing myself when it comes to dealing with issues, so just keep on doing that and we'll always work out what comes up.

The thing is, as has been said here as well, he listens, and it's safe for me to tell him these things. If I didn't feel emotionally safe with him, I wouldn't be able to be this open with him, and this relationship wouldn't work. It does take both parties.

Thank you for your reply NuevaVida. May i ask for the bolded part, how much of the sucking it up did you consider your "submissive duty" for lack of a better term?

i understand the process that you mentioned learning to speak up, have gone through a similar process as some of the wounds of my past have been healed, learning to stand up for myself and protect my emotional core better. It is a hard process to learn. It is still a struggle for me sometimes because i few the fact that i need to ask another for help with these issues a weakness on my part and i hate being weak. It isn't really a weakness, i know (intellectually) it is a strength to be able to be that vulnerable, i know it is just a warped perspective to see that need as a weakness, but i still do see it that way. i push through it, and speak when what i would most like to do is hide.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/10/2010 4:55:18 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply NuevaVida. May i ask for the bolded part, how much of the sucking it up did you consider your "submissive duty" for lack of a better term?

Not much, actually. It was more a means of self-protection than anything, that I learned in my upbringing. Say nothing, stay out of the radar, and the attention (much of which was negative) ends up somewhere else. Just agree, despite how you feel, and get out of the conversation as quickly as possible. That was the conditioning of my upbringing, which I tried to shed in my marriage, only I learned quickly that it was safest if I just continued that trend.

In my former M/s relationship, I was required to be transparent yet often told I was wrong or "bad" for feeling what I felt. So it was a weird loop I was in - Speak up and get lambasted, or stay quiet and get lambasted. Over time, I learned to choose my words carefully, to minimize the negative return, so to speak.

quote:

i understand the process that you mentioned learning to speak up, have gone through a similar process as some of the wounds of my past have been healed, learning to stand up for myself and protect my emotional core better. It is a hard process to learn. It is still a struggle for me sometimes because i few the fact that i need to ask another for help with these issues a weakness on my part and i hate being weak. It isn't really a weakness, i know (intellectually) it is a strength to be able to be that vulnerable, i know it is just a warped perspective to see that need as a weakness, but i still do see it that way. i push through it, and speak when what i would most like to do is hide.

It was hard for me to communicate because I wasn't used to it. And I was really clumsy at it at first, being unintentionally offensive and combative, as I hadn't worked out some of my self esteem and defensiveness issues yet, either. It became important to me to say what was on my mind, but it took awhile to learn a more positive approach. One step at a time, though, is the best we can do.

Ironically, after all this, my owner told me just yesterday, while talking to me about a concern I had, that I have no problem communicating what's on my mind, so just keep doing that and we'll be fine.

And by the way, pushing through it when you really want to hide is an incredible strength, and not at all a weakness. Asking for help is a way of pushing through. Try not to think of it as being vulnerable, but as becoming empowered to communicate your needs and take care of your core self.

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/12/2010 3:51:18 PM

DesFIP

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Telling someone that she has to tell the truth is a far cry from accepting criticism without anger. And honestly, men who are saints in public and devils at home are a dime a dozen so him telling this to her when others will overhear and give him kudos for being so wonderful is totally opposite to how he reacted when she told him he had been an ass. All he needed to do was react badly once for her to learn that he didn't mean what he said, that he wasn't safe to tell the truth to when it was a truth that showed him up.

I have to conclude that he did react in just this bad way and taught her that his words and his deeds did not match. And again, him saying things in front of outsiders is grandstanding, and has no bearing on what he was really like with her. We have all known people who behave badly in one relationship yet in a more compatible one behaved admirably. For whatever reason, we must conclude from the fact that she could not trust his words, that he had acted in a manner to teach her that his words were not going to be matched by his actions.

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/12/2010 4:11:25 PM

sunshinemiss

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Celeste that is not even close to what I "must" conclude about this...

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/14/2010 6:11:29 AM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Telling someone that she has to tell the truth is a far cry from accepting criticism without anger. And honestly, men who are saints in public and devils at home are a dime a dozen so him telling this to her when others will overhear and give him kudos for being so wonderful is totally opposite to how he reacted when she told him he had been an ass. All he needed to do was react badly once for her to learn that he didn't mean what he said, that he wasn't safe to tell the truth to when it was a truth that showed him up.

I have to conclude that he did react in just this bad way and taught her that his words and his deeds did not match. And again, him saying things in front of outsiders is grandstanding, and has no bearing on what he was really like with her. We have all known people who behave badly in one relationship yet in a more compatible one behaved admirably. For whatever reason, we must conclude from the fact that she could not trust his words, that he had acted in a manner to teach her that his words were not going to be matched by his actions.

Wow, so essentially you take a man you have never met, and decide based on the fact that a particular D/s relationship didn't work out, that it is (a) all his fault (something she doesn't believe) and (b) that he was mean and abusive to her in private (also something she doesn't believe, she believes he was the best man she ever met). With those kinds of leaps of logic, i am astounded that you have a relationship with a man at all, because it is apparent from the majority of your posts that you have a hatred of most men in general and the majority of Dominant men in particular.

i have tried to be polite to you because i personally believe that escalation of rude verbiage is counter productive, however in your case i am making an exception. You have a tendency to spew such anger and erroneous judgements, i seriously hope that those around you counsel you on a regular basis to go get healed of whatever wounds have caused this level of bitterness and vitrol. Because it is apparent to at least myself, although i am fairly certain i am not alone in this conclusion, that you are in serious need of some emotional healing.

With that said, i wish you well in your bitterness, i hope it doesn't poison the rest of your life the way it poisons your posts here.

heartfelt

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Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/14/2010 7:44:47 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
So my question is this: To me, part of submission, the part that feeds me the most, is in fact doing something when it is difficult or hard for me. However where does that part end (the sucking it up and obeying even when i might not want to) and where does it become a lie that can end up destroying a relationship?

the whole struggling with submission because thats when we really feel our submission kicking in, is for me anyway, a nice idea but in all reality aint so great in practice. thinking back on things in the past i can honestly say that getting through some stuff and holding it together was NOT what kept me there. what kept me there was the man and in the end their ability to see how hard i was finding something and reviewing their stance a little. so i would say that there have been genuine times, when it got tough, really phucking tough, i couldnt help but be transparent and at times told them clearly how i felt. i didnt not do that stuff, i just did find it really really hard sometimes.

when something is really tough to do or achieve, if its really making you struggle then it is youre job to hand that over to the Dominant, IMO, that is, so far as im concerned why he's there. he isnt just there to wield whips and expect obedience at all times. he is there IMO to understand and facilitate optimum return for everyone concerned. he cant be expected to do that if a sub never shares her problems and anxieties.

a problem shared and all of that.

IMO, when a D is given the info that a task of whatever kind is causing his sub/slave an issue that is when he kicks in as her leader and authority figure. by not sharing, youre failing to give him the opportunity to make the right decisions and choices. that is what a D is there for and youre friend failed to include him.

i dont think youre friend lied, i think she tried her best but in the end all she did was take the power away from her D, which is kindof sad, because i think in her head she believed she was giving him all of the power over her. she wasnt. in her head and heart other things were happening he couldnt take control of because she didnt share them with him.

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So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/14/2010 8:30:31 AM

yellowroses

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Somehow I missed this post before today and I must say that I could have used it a few days ago.

There have been a lot of GREAT things said here. I agree with most of them and have taken some for myself. My relationship of almost 10 years has been a little bit of a struggle for me the last few weeks. My husband is very good about knowing when I am not quite right and he also knows that I don't always want to talk about it right at the moment. Unfortunately this can sometimes lead to me spinning things in my head out of control. So by the time we do talk about it I have created all of the worst case possibilities.

I tried something new yesterday and it was very hard but I did it. I spoke to him when I was really struggling not afterward. It was uncomfortable for me but I did it. We continued talking later on in the evening and I am happy to say all is well. This is something that I am going to try to do in the future.

I know that I will still need to work on communicating more effectively but this was a big step for me and for us.

I am very sorry to hear about your friends breaking up. I think it is important to suck it up sometimes but equally important to communicate about as well.

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RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty - 12/14/2010 10:52:35 AM

HisEvelyn

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I completely relate to you, yellowroses. I also tend to spin things terribly out of control in my own mind, which is part of why it is so important that I am always honest and open with Master about when something is bothering me. He has a wonderful knack of knowing when I am winding myself up into a terrible baseless worry. Often by him simply ordering me to tell him what is on my mind, we can avoid a bigger problem later, when my brain has somehow turned the fact that he couldn't call for two days into this big nationwide conspiracy involving aliens, the mafia, and how he's leaving me for some big-breasted vegas showgirl! (A bit of an exaggeration for comical flair, but my imagination does run away with me!)

Now that I'm better at expressing myself, things run so much more smoothly. Just the other day, he said something that seemed terribly hurtful to me, and I tried to ignore it because he was sleepy. Two minutes after we had hung up the phone, I called him back, terrified that I was going to bother him but also knowing I was winding myself up into being angry over what he had said (I don't usually get angry, so this was significant). Not only was he not bothered, but he was proud of me for sensing that I was getting away from myself and talking to him, so he could fix it. All that was required to fix it was simply to explain the misunderstanding in communication, which took two seconds. We were both much happier! :)

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