A Degree Of Envy (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 9:22:27 AM)

This is just something that has been floating around in My head due to a thought process that has been sparked by various threads that are currently on the boards.  It may be seen as a bit in contrast to the 'competition' thread, but that wasn't what got the thoughts going.

It has always been My experience that there are fewer females involved in BDSM than males.  This is regardless on which side of the kneel they are on.  In addition, this is compounded by the theory that there are fewer women on the net on sites such as this, whether those be kinky or vanilla sites.

Having been involved in the kink community for a long time and being fortunate enough to gather My experiences in various locations, I have always noticed that women have certain advantages.  For example, a new female to BDSM has considerably more opportunities to learn, to acquire play partners, and be more welcomed in the environment.  This isn't always the same case for men.  For them, it can be hit or miss depending on a number of factors.  Age, experience, how welcoming the community is in their location, as well as a number of others.  It's a much more different experience for them that it is for us.

I want to put forth a specific mention here.  I didn't create this imbalance between the opportunities for men and women in the kink world.  I will say that I have absolutely used them to My advantage.  I didn't care that more opportunities presented themselves because I was female.  I just cared that whatever situation presented itself was open to Me, so I participated in it.  Whether that be things I could learn, people I could play with, or certain options available to Me that, if I were the 'new' guy on the block, rather than the 'new' female, wouldn't have been available.  A male walking into a club or a munch group isn't darn near almost automatically guaranteed to have the same success as a woman.  Yet, time and time again, that has been My experience as a female.

In discussing this on various threads (and seeing it as the undertone in others) I am getting a feeling that males involved (or new) to kink have a bit of envy about this situation.  Regardless of the side of the kneel, they have seen (or have been told) how this plays out and there is some bitterness attached to it.  One example of this comes out very strongly in the comments that get made concerning pro/fin dommes, about how unfair it is that males pay for experiences that women have no trouble finding.

Am I alone in seeing this?  Is there a degree of envy from males in the kink world? 



switch2please -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 9:43:21 AM)

LadyPact,
Though I don't have nearly as much experience in public play, I have found this to be true. There is definitely some envy and bitterness about the relative ease of a woman being accepted in a new kink community, whether it's a private dungeon or a swingers' club. We do have more opportunities, and I have also taken advantage of these when I can.
I have seen a lot of this envy and bitterness on the forums here. While its presence seems obvious to me, I can't say it's entirely misplaced...but I am pragmatic and frank enough about the results of such an imbalance to see no need to alter the status quo.



DarkSteven -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 9:52:43 AM)

First off, LadyPact, I agree with your basic premise that the numbers game favors women. That results, as you say, in plenty of eager men willing to propose activities to women.

Believe it or not, I prefer it that way. I don't like turning people down, and I'd get grouchy if I had a bunch of women coming up to me all the time, asking me to play with them if I didn't know them. I right now have one woman who's asked me to play with her at a spanking party, and I don't want to, and I don't like rejecting her.

Put me down as being in favor of the status quo.



liks2plzlf -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 11:06:06 AM)

For me I don't think it is envy so much as resignation, thats just the way it is. I believe it will only get worse from a sub male perspective, as more woman discover D&s, or that they can control many of the men easily. I see this in the amount of young women on collarme now. I think it is good for the women though, with the guy knowing there are many who would gladly take his place. Women rule!



vancraft -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 11:57:10 AM)

i see alot of bias even on the forums, a sub guy will give a discript well thought out argument on say: why people shouldnt wear yellow
a female dom will then show up and say a quick line and get 5 replies of how insightful she is.
guys are approved targets for trolling for nearly anything while a female seems to really needs to have her head firmly up her ass. making freinds in this lifestyle i have found next to impossible and have simply given up on it. i was debating on a regular bases to delete my profile due to the double standards around here, but i figure i will stick around and try to do what i can to change the things about this place i do not like as i see alot of potential here.

that being said, i dont think women have it so much easier, they just get alot more attention by people seeking nothing else but to use them for sex and fur-filling(sp) fetishes, same as anywhere really. i wouldnt use the word envy but i do feel abit second class sometimes.





footsub90 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:02:58 PM)

Guys have it harder to get partners, but women have to deal with alot of creeps before attaining their goal. So it sucks on both ends. I also don't think there is 'envy', because it's a part of life and expected, not really unfair.



LaTigresse -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:04:12 PM)

I do think that women have the advantage in the number game. Face to face, that works for women. Especially hetro women.

Online, I think it works against a woman that is only interested in other women. Which why I don't take the idea of finding anyone via the net seriously. There are just way too many men that are pretending to be women, just to get their kink on. I would venture to say that the greater percentile of pink emails I get are men in disguise.

I also think it works against hetro women on both sides of the kneel. Because of the large disparity in numbers, you have many men, creating persona's in an attempt to appeal to women. Something few, if any, women are interested in.

And yes, I think there is envy to some degree and yes I do think it tends to come out as anger. What that is directed towards depends upon the individual and issue at hand.



LadyConstanze -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:31:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: footsub90

Guys have it harder to get partners, but women have to deal with alot of creeps before attaining their goal. So it sucks on both ends. I also don't think there is 'envy', because it's a part of life and expected, not really unfair.



Pretty much, yes.... But you forget all the "dominant guys" who want to show dominant women the error of their ways. I get a ton of mails from guys who tell me how they want to be treated (insert long laundry list of what I should do to them for "my pleasure" and of course my expense) and not quite as many from some guys with a complex who tell me that I am clearly waiting for the right guy to dominate me and they're just the ones.... Even if I would switch or wish to be submissive, why would I pick the most unattractive and obese guys? And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against switches, a few good friends are male dominants, it's just that I am not a sub or a switch and somebody claiming to be able to give me orders doesn't make me one... It can be amusing...



switch2please -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:37:43 PM)

LaT, cheating aside - mostly since correct stats on that subject are not likely to be found due to the fact that a proper survey requires honesty - I have to agree that the advantages are in favor of hetero women, or bi women seeking a hetero partner. I hadn't considered this.

vancraft, I don't think anyone should wear yellow unless the shade suits them. For example, I look good in mustard tones, some can flaunt bolder yellows, but very few people look good in neon. I expect my insight here to be applauded.
Seriously though, I do agree that men are scapegoated as trolls and this isn't likely to change unless the gender ratio balances somewhat, and I don't expect this to happen anytime soon.



footsub90 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:39:11 PM)

I thought I addressed that with the 'creeps' part. But yes, I'm sure that Dominant men and submissive men both are annoying to the female populace. Plus you pointed out an interesting point, apperance definetly plays a key role.



LadyConstanze -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 12:57:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: footsub90

I thought I addressed that with the 'creeps' part. But yes, I'm sure that Dominant men and submissive men both are annoying to the female populace. Plus you pointed out an interesting point, apperance definetly plays a key role.


Appearance does play a part but when it comes down to it, most women prefer somebody who might not be gorgeous but mentally stimulating, but if you are a complete bore and you don't even have the looks... Do those guys really think declaring that they are dominant will change the world or my nature?



footsub90 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 1:06:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: footsub90

I thought I addressed that with the 'creeps' part. But yes, I'm sure that Dominant men and submissive men both are annoying to the female populace. Plus you pointed out an interesting point, apperance definetly plays a key role.


Appearance does play a part but when it comes down to it, most women prefer somebody who might not be gorgeous but mentally stimulating, but if you are a complete bore and you don't even have the looks... Do those guys really think declaring that they are dominant will change the world or my nature?



Interesting point. I think with your case, the creeps are desperate in their attempts to change your status. Probably because their horny and not thinking clearly (any logical person would see its ridiculous). Also there is a good chance they send these types of letters to many dominant females.

I myself get messages from men, trying to turn me gay or bi. Either way its pretty lame and sad. 



LadyConstanze -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 1:11:02 PM)

We are all born with certain traits, I wouldn't ever think somebody who likes to submit is less worthy or less smart than me, it's a preference, I often actually thought that submissives need to have a lot more courage and trust than dominants and I hardly saw anything weaker than so called dominants acting like petulant kids because not everybody automatically bowed and scraped because they declared themselves superior...



blackpearl81 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 1:43:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I do think that women have the advantage in the number game. Face to face, that works for women. Especially hetro women.

Online, I think it works against a woman that is only interested in other women. Which why I don't take the idea of finding anyone via the net seriously. There are just way too many men that are pretending to be women, just to get their kink on. I would venture to say that the greater percentile of pink emails I get are men in disguise.

I also think it works against hetro women on both sides of the kneel. Because of the large disparity in numbers, you have many men, creating persona's in an attempt to appeal to women. Something few, if any, women are interested in.

And yes, I think there is envy to some degree and yes I do think it tends to come out as anger. What that is directed towards depends upon the individual and issue at hand.



Welcome to the internetz: where the women are men, the men are women, and the kiddies are FBI agents.

[8D]

Ok, now for a serious reply to Mizzzzzz Pact (sorry, couldn't resist :P )


I agree in that submissive women (I'm speaking from that side, because it's what I identify more with) seem to have more opportunities to become acclimated to a BDSM lifestyle/dynamic.

Part of my thinking leans heavily to the thought that it's a matter of "quality over quantity" - in the sense that, there are probably infinitely more male "wankers" than there are female "wankers" out there. I guess you could say that the "authenticity" is higher among females than males. (metaphorically speaking)

Think about that - how often have we read posts from Dommes that get the "do me" emails from male subs? Now flip that around, and ask yourself this: How often have you seen a Dom get those kind of emails from female subs?

With regards to envy, I can only speak from personal experience. Yeah, I've gotten envious at times.






LadyRian -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 2:24:28 PM)

This is a great topic, btw. Thanks for posting it.

I think that there's a modicom of male envy, definitely. Some males definitely seem to be exhibiting envy. "Sour Grapes" comes to mind.  I can't speak of percentages, but from what I see at munches the ratio of males to females is at least 3 to 1. I've noticed more female subs or switches than all out Dommes.  Dommes are in very high demand, but many times it's more the fantasy of who she's "expected" to be, instead of who she really is, and this causes some cognitive dissonance for everyone involved.  I also think that men have been done a grave disservice by certain cultural myths, and this also causes some angst, and jealousy completely unrelated to BDSM as well.





vancraft -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 4:42:00 PM)

"Online, I think it works against a woman that is only interested in other women. Which why I don't take the idea of finding anyone via the net seriously. There are just way too many men that are pretending to be women, just to get their kink on. I would venture to say that the greater percentile of pink emails I get are men in disguise."

this is probly the worst for issues on finding someone online out of all the orientations around, you have my sympathy for the amount of bullshit out there

"vancraft, I don't think anyone should wear yellow unless the shade suits them. For example, I look good in mustard tones, some can flaunt bolder yellows, but very few people look good in neon. I expect my insight here to be applauded."

such opinions need to be voiced more often, your a hero of the people. [8D]

"Dommes are in very high demand, but many times it's more the fantasy of who she's "expected" to be, instead of who she really is,"

this makes me wonder how many women are out there who are dominant but don't think they can stack up to the fantasy stereotypes and therefor will not identify as a domme





switch2please -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/7/2010 5:00:32 PM)

I agree with a post Greedy made on another thread. I like him. Can we keep him? Please!? [:D]



LaTigresse -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 4:10:56 AM)

I agree and Van, please don't feel sorry for me. I am a mean old bitch. If anything, feel sorry for the putzs that are wasting their time trying to play internet pattycake with me.

Or moreso, feel sorry for the few that are actually female, I disregard as male because of their communication style.

And yes I know that is an awkward sentence but I haven't had enough coffee to correct it.



LadyPact -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 8:41:34 AM)

Thanks for the replies so far.  Some very interesting thoughts.

Steven, I really appreciated your comment about the fact that you like it this way.  From what you've always conveyed about your personality, I'm not really surprised. 

I can appreciate the honesty of those males who did say that envy can come up at times.  It's something that I see and not just here on the net.  I've watched that it isn't as easy for males to integrate into the community and there is an effect.  The more glaring examples are on the net, of course.  I don't think we'd have nearly the number of posts complaining about subjects such as pros if the reality wasn't that some folks don't have the same opportunities for play.  Hey, if I go to the club, I know I'm going to play.  For guys, it's hit or miss, unless they happen to be a really attractive popular bottom.  The average guy........ It's a crap shoot.

LaT you raised a really good point here that I hadn't thought of.  Like you, I really don't put that much value to contacts through the net because if face to face is lacking, I just can't put that much into it.  I think, from your reasoning here, you may even have additional  factors for supporting that.  It's something that I wasn't especially considering in the original, but I'm sure it has an influence.



LadyPact -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 8:43:04 AM)

Accidentally double posted.



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