RE: A Degree Of Envy

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LadyNTrainer -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 9:13:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vancraft i see alot of bias even on the forums, a sub guy will give a discript well thought out argument on say: why people shouldnt wear yellow a female dom will then show up and say a quick line and get 5 replies of how insightful she is. I don't mean to be unkind, but I will gently express that when people are articulate themselves well with good grammar and spelling, they are more likely to be regarded positively than someone who appears to put little effort into composing or spell checking their posts. This has less to do with gender and more to do with the willingness to work on using business English in a neat and professional manner. If some of your past experience has included being ignored or belittled for what you believe are well thought out posts, I will suggest that if you put more effort into presentation, they will be much better received. I hope this is a constructive and helpful suggestion that will make a positive difference for you. quote: guys are approved targets for trolling for nearly anything while a female seems to really needs to have her head firmly up her ass. making freinds in this lifestyle i have found next to impossible and have simply given up on it. i was debating on a regular bases to delete my profile due to the double standards around here, but i figure i will stick around and try to do what i can to change the things about this place i do not like as i see alot of potential here. Two things. One, try Fetlife; it's more socially oriented and local community oriented. Two, I will strongly recommend working harder on your business English skills, as how you represent yourself with your writing online is comparable to how you dress and groom yourself in person. If you are sloppy and uncombed, your shoelaces untied, people will tend to pass you over in favor of people who are neater and more together in appearance. It may not be "fair", but it's how the world works. quote: that being said, i dont think women have it so much easier, they just get alot more attention by people seeking nothing else but to use them for sex and fur-filling(sp) fetishes, same as anywhere really. Too true that.

vancraft -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 11:08:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer I don't mean to be unkind, but I will gently express that when people are articulate themselves well with good grammar and spelling, they are more likely to be regarded positively than someone who appears to put little effort into composing or spell checking their posts... i was mostly speaking what i have seen happen to other users. as for myself i have dysgraphia and auditory dyslexia. to sum it up i cannot spell phonetically, all spelling of words is through memorization and i ignore grammer due to the vast difference in thinking and writing speed. believe me i know the very high price of this hindrance, one of my purposes of being on sites it to practice articulating my thoughts with the written word. sadly enough i do put a good amount of effort into what i am trying to say even if it comes out hastily written, i feel i tend to get my points across most of the time but writing is very much a weak point of mine

LadyNTrainer -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 12:28:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vancraft i was mostly speaking what i have seen happen to other users. as for myself i have dysgraphia and auditory dyslexia. to sum it up i cannot spell phonetically, all spelling of words is through memorization and i ignore grammer due to the vast difference in thinking and writing speed. That's definitely a handicap when it comes to trying to present yourself online. It might actually help if you let people know that your writing isn't necessarily going to be an accurate reflection of how much effort you put into your thought processes, since most folks understand dyslexia and don't have a problem with it, whereas an apparently careless/thoughtless attitude can be more of a negative. I think that you may well be seeing some of the let's flatter her to get into her pants kind of thinking when it comes to people praising females on these boards, but I also think that some statements commonly made by male submissives that may seem inocuous to a man are not well received by women who are very, very tired of being objectified. Even perfectly nice men can often err on the side of making our eyes roll, not because they are bad people, but because we are so very sick of the general atmosphere that is created by the much ruder men when they comment on our physical attributes or about what they want sexually. Again it's not fair, but it is how it is on adult boards. Imagine if 95% of the time your phone rang, it turned into an obscene crank call within a few exchanges. Pretty soon you'd be answering the phone with a lot less friendliness and cheerfulness. That's pretty much what happens to ladies on an adult site. It tends to make our social responses a lot more wary and guarded.

LadyConstanze -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 1:23:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer ......but I also think that some statements commonly made by male submissives that may seem inocuous to a man are not well received by women who are very, very tired of being objectified. Even perfectly nice men can often err on the side of making our eyes roll, not because they are bad people, but because we are so very sick of the general atmosphere that is created by the much ruder men when they comment on our physical attributes or about what they want sexually. Again it's not fair, but it is how it is on adult boards. Imagine if 95% of the time your phone rang, it turned into an obscene crank call within a few exchanges. Pretty soon you'd be answering the phone with a lot less friendliness and cheerfulness. That's pretty much what happens to ladies on an adult site. It tends to make our social responses a lot more wary and guarded. Absolutely, in another discussion a guy said there is no glass ceiling for women in the UK - a guy wouldn't notice the glass ceiling because he never encountered it. Years ago a bf got drunk with a guy who was gay and he didn't realize it (how he could miss that is beyond me, my gaydar was doing overdrive), fell asleep on the guy's sofa and woke up because a hand was in his shorts, he arrived home shocked, terrified and freaked out. He couldn't understand that I didn't think it was a big deal because as a woman you live with knowing that there is a good chance of that happening if you do fall asleep on a strange guy's sofa. To be honest, I thought it was a good lesson for him, but he didn't see it like that, I kept on telling him, that's one of the things guys don't realize but women live with daily, you simply can't do certain things because guys will take it as an invitation....

hlen5 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 2:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Years ago a bf got drunk with a guy who was gay and he didn't realize it (how he could miss that is beyond me, my gaydar was doing overdrive), fell asleep on the guy's sofa and woke up because a hand was in his shorts, he arrived home shocked, terrified and freaked out. He couldn't understand that I didn't think it was a big deal because as a woman you live with knowing that there is a good chance of that happening if you do fall asleep on a strange guy's sofa. To be honest, I thought it was a good lesson for him, but he didn't see it like that, I kept on telling him, that's one of the things guys don't realize but women live with daily, you simply can't do certain things because guys will take it as an invitation.... It might have been a case of the shoe being on the other foot, but a violation is a violation. I don't think it would be a good object lesson if he gotten overpowered and raped, why would it be different if he got groped against his will?

pyroaquatic -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 3:36:04 PM)
Initially I was envious over the fact that yes females have more opportunities. Upon inspection the qualities of these opportunities are rather low. I feel special and confident in my self. There is no real reason for me to feel envy in that manner. Quality beats quantity any day.

LadyPact -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 4:12:46 PM)
I get what you're saying, pyro, but I think it works both ways. When folks are first starting out, it's not so much a quality vrs quantity debate. When a woman is learning to top, needing help with skills, wanting people to play with so she can learn this technique or that, she doesn't have issues with volunteers. Male tops often can't say the same thing. Being welcomed at the new munch? Same thing. Some of this shows up in places like the forums. The same question can be asked by a male or a female, but the female will get the better response rate. Women have the easier path.

pyroaquatic -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 5:09:35 PM)
Ah... I can not get any play to save my life but I am not envious. Wow, is it bad to be complacent with such things? While it takes me a year and a half to find a relationship it takes a woman less than a month. ....... ....... envy is a wasted emotion. i'd rather spend it bettering my self to increase my chances of finding a lovely mate. sigh........

LadyRian -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 5:26:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I get what you're saying, pyro, but I think it works both ways. When folks are first starting out, it's not so much a quality vrs quantity debate. When a woman is learning to top, needing help with skills, wanting people to play with so she can learn this technique or that, she doesn't have issues with volunteers. Male tops often can't say the same thing. Being welcomed at the new munch? Same thing. Some of this shows up in places like the forums. The same question can be asked by a male or a female, but the female will get the better response rate. Women have the easier path. I find this to be absolutely true. I find that people are much more willing to help me learn, lend encouragement, share tips and techniques, and just generally offer their support. Even thought I'm not exactly 100% newbie, I'm not an oldbie either, and definitely have a lot to learn. And I find that people are always willing to help me. I've seen people on CM offer assistance to newer male doms, I'm glad to see that, I think that's really great! But I also notice that there are less male doms who will admit to being inexperienced and perhaps wanting some assistance, maybe because they feel that they won't get help or support.

lickenforyou -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 5:30:17 PM)
Of course there is envy. I don't see how there couldn't be, it's human nature. Yes, I am envious. I wish I had more prospects for attracting a Domme. But, I don't let it make me bitter. And, there are a lot of pro Dommes on here but they are trying to make money so they reveal themselves pretty quickly. I'm not interested in that so I move on. There's also a lot of Dommes that I'm not attracted to. So, that narrows the field as well. I can see where it bothers women to hear men complain. It's the same for me reading a Domme's profile and in bold letters it says over and over NO Fakes! I realize that it is out of frustration but it's kind of a turn off and I don't think the flakes pay attention to it anyway.

AlexandraLynch -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 9:57:10 PM)
quote: When a woman is learning to top, needing help with skills, wanting people to play with so she can learn this technique or that, she doesn't have issues with volunteers. Male tops often can't say the same thing. Being welcomed at the new munch? Same thing. I think that in my experience it got me in the door, but I guarantee had I shown signs of being an asshole, I wouldn't have got very far. I try to give new dominants who aren't assholes and who are genuinely willing to be patient and humble and listen to others a shot at learning how to play, regardless of gender. However, one whiff of entitled male or "So when do we fuck?" and it is SO not going to happen.

CarpeComa -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/8/2010 11:37:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyRian And I find that people are always willing to help me. I've seen people on CM offer assistance to newer male doms, I'm glad to see that, I think that's really great! But I also notice that there are less male doms who will admit to being inexperienced and perhaps wanting some assistance, maybe because they feel that they won't get help or support. The lower numbers of male doms willing to admit to being inexperienced is related to the less friendly environment. The penalty for inexperience is much greater for a guy because of the perceived numbers difference (I personally don't buy that there are more serious guys than gals overall, but I do concede that the wanker quotient seems to be a lot higher for guys). Experience is valued and with a relatively large number of people being compared against, even a small change in perceived value tends to yield a large change in demand. It doesn't take a guy long to notice that those that admit to being inexperienced tend to be sidelined and marginalized.

vancraft -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 12:22:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer ...I also think that some statements commonly made by male submissives that may seem inocuous to a man are not well received by women who are very, very tired of being objectified... Imagine if 95% of the time your phone rang, it turned into an obscene crank call within a few exchanges. Pretty soon you'd be answering the phone with a lot less friendliness and cheerfulness. That's pretty much what happens to ladies on an adult site. It tends to make our social responses a lot more wary and guarded. you make a really good point. i dont think many guys really have much idea of how careful a woman has to be online to avoid negative attentions/ men assuming shes into him for simply agreeing with a comment hes made. Its often just assumed by men to be the girl clique vs the lone new guy due to how women are more able to communicate with each other. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze ...in another discussion a guy said there is no glass ceiling for women in the UK - a guy wouldn't notice the glass ceiling because he never encountered it... totally. as a guy you dont pay attention to womens issues(or any group your not part of) as those issues give you no problem until someone you care about is affected by such issues(in this case womens issues). as a guy social demands i have to worry about are bringing home the bacon, how attractive i am to women, how buff i am, how socially dominant i am with other males/dick measurements and so on. being male is alot of stuff to deal with somedays, so i look over at women and then realise they dont have to deal with the same annoying crap i have to as a guy. not really paying attention to the issues they face i only see a freedom from my own social pressures, its a pretty natural assumption that the "other group" has a perfect life. the issue happens when this turns to jealousy and refusing to admit the other group doesn't have a carefree existence when shown otherwise, leading to justifying hostilities and all those phobias/predjudices we have.

LadyConstanze -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 4:48:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Years ago a bf got drunk with a guy who was gay and he didn't realize it (how he could miss that is beyond me, my gaydar was doing overdrive), fell asleep on the guy's sofa and woke up because a hand was in his shorts, he arrived home shocked, terrified and freaked out. He couldn't understand that I didn't think it was a big deal because as a woman you live with knowing that there is a good chance of that happening if you do fall asleep on a strange guy's sofa. To be honest, I thought it was a good lesson for him, but he didn't see it like that, I kept on telling him, that's one of the things guys don't realize but women live with daily, you simply can't do certain things because guys will take it as an invitation.... It might have been a case of the shoe being on the other foot, but a violation is a violation. I don't think it would be a good object lesson if he gotten overpowered and raped, why would it be different if he got groped against his will? There is a difference between somebody feeling you up and being overpowered and raped, a big difference and you are comparing 2 different things. As a woman if I would get drunk and fall asleep on the sofa of a stranger and he would touch me, I wake up and tell him to stop and he stops, everybody - including a lawyer - would tell me I acted irresponsible and provoked the situation by entering his house and getting so drunk that I fell asleep, since he stopped when being told so no force or violation happened. They would put a great deal of responsibility on me and rightly so, it's something a woman lives with, men hardly ever encounter it and the funny thing is when I tried to tell him that, he claimed a man being attracted to a woman who seems available and "invites" touching by sleeping over is normal, yet if it's a guy it's not normal...

LadyPact -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 6:29:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch I think that in my experience it got me in the door, but I guarantee had I shown signs of being an asshole, I wouldn't have got very far. I'm in firm agreement on this. Being female will only take someone to a certain point. Personality and attitude will be a factor later on. quote: ORIGINAL: CarpeComa The lower numbers of male doms willing to admit to being inexperienced is related to the less friendly environment. The penalty for inexperience is much greater for a guy because of the perceived numbers difference (I personally don't buy that there are more serious guys than gals overall, but I do concede that the wanker quotient seems to be a lot higher for guys). Experience is valued and with a relatively large number of people being compared against, even a small change in perceived value tends to yield a large change in demand. It doesn't take a guy long to notice that those that admit to being inexperienced tend to be sidelined and marginalized. Very much so. While I'm not as particularly concerned with the focus of online interactions, the above is very evident around here. Watch the introduction threads. Male Doms are the most likely category to start their intro with the 'I've got years of experience' bit. Quite often, by the time they have made a few posts, it's easy to see that they have embellished. More often than not, I tend to believe they do this for the exact reason that you describe above.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 8:27:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch quote: When a woman is learning to top, needing help with skills, wanting people to play with so she can learn this technique or that, she doesn't have issues with volunteers. Male tops often can't say the same thing. Being welcomed at the new munch? Same thing. I think that in my experience it got me in the door, but I guarantee had I shown signs of being an asshole, I wouldn't have got very far. I try to give new dominants who aren't assholes and who are genuinely willing to be patient and humble and listen to others a shot at learning how to play, regardless of gender. However, one whiff of entitled male or "So when do we fuck?" and it is SO not going to happen. That may be part of the problem. I used to be a pretty active "local greeter" for an established Munch/play group, and it didn't matter what the gender or orientation was of the person who had moved to the area and wanted an introduction. I made it crystal clear up front that I was only being social and friendly and there was NOTHING else being offered. But several times I had a male dominant assume that because I had agreed to meet them at Starbuck's for a cup of coffee and give them some friendly BDSM Community 101 chat, it meant I would play with them or sleep with them. One asked me outright that this meant I was really a switch or a sub, and when would I bottom to him? He refused to believe otherwise, because why else would I be willing to meet with a male dom? He kept calling me asking for play until I told him I would report him to the police and take out a restraining order if he ever called me again, and also that I would shoot his sorry ass on sight if I ever saw him near me. I don't appreciate being stalked and harassed. That level of disrespect made me drop them cold and refuse to have anything more to do with them, and feel uncomfortable if they did show up to a Munch, and pretty soon I quit being a greeter. I refused to do any more orientations/screenings because it was resulting in way too much male entitlement, eg, men assuming that my meeting them and being willing to be their guide to the local BDSM scene meant I would bottom to them or sleep with them. Uh, no, no, and hells no. In fairness, of course not all men behaved this way, many were perfectly friendly and well mannered. But an annoying enough percentage of them did behave that way that I no longer consider it a good idea to do friendly outreach to new male dominants. They will very often get The Wrong Idea, even if I tell them otherwise right up front. I don't like the fact that this is true, as I enjoy making friends from all ends of the diversity spectrum, but sadly it is.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 10:24:49 AM)
We see so much anger and bitterness directed at women here... but is it all from men who have actually been OUT in the scene? Or is it just the sour grapes of those who expect instant gratification for free?

LadyPact -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 11:23:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus We see so much anger and bitterness directed at women here... but is it all from men who have actually been OUT in the scene? Or is it just the sour grapes of those who expect instant gratification for free? That's why I made the distinction. Anger and/or bitterness show up here (meaning CM) fairly regularly. Those can be stemmed from envy, though it isn't necessarily that way. A couple of the guys who have responded on this thread have mentioned envy, but don't have the anger or bitterness that some display. That is much more reflective of what I see out in the scene. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer That may be part of the problem. I used to be a pretty active "local greeter" for an established Munch/play group, and it didn't matter what the gender or orientation was of the person who had moved to the area and wanted an introduction. I made it crystal clear up front that I was only being social and friendly and there was NOTHING else being offered. But several times I had a male dominant assume that because I had agreed to meet them at Starbuck's for a cup of coffee and give them some friendly BDSM Community 101 chat, it meant I would play with them or sleep with them. One asked me outright that this meant I was really a switch or a sub, and when would I bottom to him? He refused to believe otherwise, because why else would I be willing to meet with a male dom? He kept calling me asking for play until I told him I would report him to the police and take out a restraining order if he ever called me again, and also that I would shoot his sorry ass on sight if I ever saw him near me. I don't appreciate being stalked and harassed. My experience is slightly different than yours, LNT. I've never been an official "greeter" for any of the groups that I've participated in. Anything that would be close for Me would be when I've been on the steering/activities committee or I was an elected member of the board. Being a part of the vetting process for new members is just part of the gig. For the new person coming in, it's a best behavior scenario. After all, nobody wants to insult the person who is making the decision on whether or not someone can attend play parties. [;)]

Dnomyar -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/9/2010 8:46:07 PM)
Im sort of lost about this post. Im not into envy. From experience I can see where your comming from. You have to look where your at. If your into this community you have to expect to deal with assholes. Im talking about both men and women. Guess Im to laid back because I could care less. This is a good place to vent about the crap your put thru.

hlen5 -> RE: A Degree Of Envy (12/10/2010 12:37:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze .......and the funny thing is when I tried to tell him that, he claimed a man being attracted to a woman who seems available and "invites" touching by sleeping over is normal, yet if it's a guy it's not normal... I was trying to make the point that unwanted touching is never ok. I wasn't trying to say what happended to your bf was exactly the same as rape. I felt less sympatheic towards him after reading what you posted above!

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