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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/8/2010 8:50:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Hmmm... your 56. Meaning the earliest you could have gone to college would have been 1972. Pell grants were initiated in 1965.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/8/2010 8:52:04 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

There's an interesting separation between 'success' and 'failure' in this discussion. Are they really opposites? Or are they mutually dependent? Can you have one without the other?


Of course.


Visionary stuff! You can think of/imagine a modern society that has only successes and no failures? Or vice versa? I'd love to hear the details of this.

It's easy to think in terms of individual success or failure. At the level of society/State it's a tad different.


I didnt say that both successes and failures dont exist, I said that one's success does not mean it was because of or led to the failure of another. Society is not a zero sum game, it can and has been advanced in every generation. There are 1000s of examples in the US economy alone.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 12:08:55 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

There's an interesting separation between 'success' and 'failure' in this discussion. Are they really opposites? Or are they mutually dependent? Can you have one without the other?


Of course.


Visionary stuff! You can think of/imagine a modern society that has only successes and no failures? Or vice versa? I'd love to hear the details of this.

It's easy to think in terms of individual success or failure. At the level of society/State it's a tad different.


I didnt say that both successes and failures dont exist, I said that one's success does not mean it was because of or led to the failure of another. Society is not a zero sum game, it can and has been advanced in every generation. There are 1000s of examples in the US economy alone.


Yes let's look at the economy. 1000s of successes there no doubt and 1000s of failures too - the manufacturing industry, the clothing industry, the millions of jobs lost to China and cheap imports....... every single one of them a failure and not necessarily the now-unemployed worker's fault at all.

Here, in Australia we have 5% unemployment. Economists tell us that this actually "full" employment. Why? Their thinking goes like this:

If the unemployment rate falls below 5%, then there will be labour shortages, causing pressure on wages and 'bottlenecks' in the economy, as well as upwards pressure on interest rates, all of which leads to the big No-No, Inflation.

So the system actually has unemployment/failure built into it. And if we remove the level of failure, there are other undesirable consequences, the system ceases to function properly. Take the failures out, prices and interest rates go up and everyone is poorer. So the system needs failure.

In fact, you could say that the 'failures' are proof that the system is working well, that it is 'succeeding'. The last thing a prudent 'successful' person needs is the elimination of 'failure' from the system. That would jeopardise their 'success'.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/9/2010 12:21:22 AM >

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 4:57:05 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Would it matter how they got to the point of needing government assistance? Do we abort the portion of the government that may have had a direct action causing them to now need government assistance?



Sorry for my tardiness, I meant to get to this earlier.


Phil Gramm was the portion of the government who's direct action set in place the deregulatory mechanism that swelled into the debacle that will take us years to get through, but he was smart enough to high tail out of Dodge before sub-prime manure hit the turbo fan of credit default swap default. He went to work for for UBS in 2003, took leave to be McCain's economic adviser during his campaign, then went back to UBS to help them get a nice portion of the bail-out bonanza.

Pouring quick set concrete on Barney Frank and in fact the the whole financial services committee in the House and banking committee in the Senate might make us feel better, but the damage has already been done.









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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:00:36 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Very true. At the moment, though, what's to stop exactly the same damage being done all over again?

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:16:51 AM   
Edwynn


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Exactly.

This was pointed out by smarter people during the financial "reform" debate, that repealing Glass-Stegall (which is what enacting Gramm-Leach-Bliley did) and the CFMA of 2000 were the underlying cause, so why not just put things back the way they were before 1999?

Right, we know how far that got. Even McCain, believe it or not, was saying to put Glass-Stegal back in place, just to be his usual mysterious self, I suppose.

So now more than a few who work in these markets for a living say that in 5-8 years we'll see another one, maybe even bigger.




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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:36:51 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

The premise is put forth that a fetus does not have the same rights and protections under the constitution because it is not a self-sustaining entity.  A woman should have the right to decide whether she wishes to continue to support a fetus until it is capable of supporting its own life.  The Government shouldn't force a woman to continue to support a parasitic being.

Now mind you... this thread isn't about abortion in the sense of the above.  It's about extending that premise, if it is one that you believe to be true, to situations beyond reproduction.

An example of what I am talking about?  Simple.  Just change out a few of the nouns in the first paragraph.


The premise is put forth that an individual who relies on Government support does not have the same rights and protections under the constitution because they are not a self-sustaining entity.  A taxpaying citizen should have the right to decide whether he or she wishes to continue to support an individual who relies on Government support until they are capable of supporting their own life.  The Government shouldn't force a taxpaying citizen to continue to support a parasitic being.


I find it amusing that there are persons of all political persuasions who are incapable of recognizing their own hypocrisy.  Liberals who insist the above premise holds true with regard to the abortion of fetuses, but insist that the Government should force all taxpayers to support individuals who are not self-sustaining... and Conservatives who believe that they should have the right to decide who to support, but cannot extend that same courtesy to pregnant women.

I'm sure much debate could be made with regard to whether this basic premise can be applied equally to all situations.  At this point, I'm mulling through the concept myself and so far cannot see where there is a fundamental difference that would invalidate it.  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.



If we say, for arguments sake, that the premise is correct and adults should be "aborted" from the system what sort of country will you have? I think you only need to look beyond the southern border to see what would result. We would become Mexico rather quickly. If you don't now have a wall around your house with concreted glass shards on the top of the wall along with barbed wire attached you soon will have.......I think I will keep what we have and try to improve on it.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 6:27:23 AM   
theGuideGoddess


Posts: 135
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting thread.  I suppose I would be the utter hypocrite as I was recently pondering that sterilization should be the punishment for some crimes.  Maybe it is because I am old and see that some sorts of people continue on their same self destructive path their entire lives.  Consequently there are thousands of orphans wandering the streets of NY as orphanages short of funding have closed.  But hey….the banks got bailed out,  along with some very huge other failures. 

You take the crack ho….how did she come to get that ‘parasite’ growing in her?   How about the single welfare momma who continues to reproduce without an ability to sustain the life she is creating?  For that matter ANY woman?  Maybe we should consider the risks and costs before we take our big girl panties off.  To minimize a fetus to parasite is ludicrous.  Also this argument fails in that we should be able to have our fun without having to actually face the consequences.  We even have partial birth abortion available in some states.  To me:  that is utterly nauseating.  Who actually bore the consequences there?  Otherwise:  adopt!  Tough luck if the emotion of the experience is ‘too difficult’.  The emotion of abortion is equally difficult and has a likely ability for causing long term emotional damage.  It is about taking personal responsibility.  Then let’s not forget the men who enable the whole process either.

On the other hand I definitely see adult parasites of the system.  I know numerous people on permanent ‘disability’ receiving S.S..  It is my belief that almost all people have the capacity to be productive members of society at some level.   Likewise I am seeing people on unemployment not getting jobs…..some of whom simply don’t want to…..not all.  Many in my age bracket are not getting jobs because they are overqualified. 

Many of these people would start businesses except that the government has become so deeply entrenched in minutiae policy that it is an arduous task to start a business.  In which case some of it simply comes down to effort.                                                                                           

If I were to redesign the welfare system it would be deeply rooted in how to make each individual of their most value.  It would start with aptitude testing.  That discovery process would lead to giving the individual several choices of mandatory education.  The education would be piped via their televisions into their homes.  In order to collect their monthly check they would need to pass the testing.  After several years you would now have a more educated and hirable individual…..less of a parasite.   

Why are some people dysfunctional and hence parasites?  I believe that some are a result of parents allowed to breed and parent without any requirements.  The most important responsibility an individual can have is being a parent.  You are forming the life and future of that other human being.  I believe education is at the root of the solution.

I have paid tens of thousands of dollars into our public school system.  They are so burdened in bureaucracy that much of our money is simply wasted and not on the actual education of our children.  If you want to become ill research THAT out.  Did you know that we spend more per dollar per student on public education that it costs for private superior education?  Our schools are producing illiterates, after all we wouldn’t want a child to learn failure if they actually do.  The colleges are lamenting the fact that children don’t have the levels of knowledge that they should upon entering.  By design we are dumbing down America to create the slaves the elite require. 

I don’t have time to go back and re-read this thread, but I agree that the large corporations that cause failures should be held accountable.  

Jumps off soap box to rush to a long day of being paid for advice.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 6:48:30 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I think the people who think that they can decide who is a parasite on society and who isnt should be terminated out of hand
they are the problem not the solution.
OMG see the irony there?




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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 6:59:57 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~FR

I asked this question elsewhere, and never got a response. So i will ask again.

Drs do not stop a spontaneous abortion until the pregnancy is in its 20th week of conception. Are we now labling them murders?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/9/2010 7:11:45 AM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 7:11:01 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Reading the GuideGoddess rant above makes me think we are all too busy pointing fingers to actually see the REAL problems and try to help out.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 7:20:06 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Warning for the faint of heart, this is close to home for me so I'm going to say it like it is. If that hurts your feelings I recommend you go and find some other place to post nonsense like this
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

The premise is put forth that a fetus does not have the same rights and protections under the constitution because it is not a self-sustaining entity.  A woman should have the right to decide whether she wishes to continue to support a fetus until it is capable of supporting its own life.  The Government shouldn't force a woman to continue to support a parasitic being.

A reasonable, although simplistic statement. Covers the high point. note that it covers the point that this is an individual choice and the fetus is literally parasitical in the biological sense.

quote:



The premise is put forth that an individual who relies on Government support does not have the same rights and protections under the constitution because they are not a self-sustaining entity.  A taxpaying citizen should have the right to decide whether he or she wishes to continue to support an individual who relies on Government support until they are capable of supporting their own life.  The Government shouldn't force a taxpaying citizen to continue to support a parasitic being.


This of course is the usual nonsense we get from this delightful couple. Part of what taxes do is pay for the things society needs that individuals cannot pay for directly. That includes support of widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. None of which are parasites in the biological sense as the term as used in the first statement.
Funny...I don't remember treasure mentioning the widows, orphans, the elderly or the disabled.  Since I am not treasure I cannot speak for her BUT I can speak for me...I have no trouble supporting those folks that you have mentioned.  I DO have a problem supporting able-bodied men or women for a length of time that is unreasonable.  If you have been out of work for two or more years and you haven't been able to find ANYTHING which would pay you a wage, then you aren't looking very hard.  And before all the hoopla about "not a decent wage to live on" or other nonsense starts, I call "hyperbole".  I've only watched a few episodes but there's an interesting program called DOWNSIZING .  It's about a husband and wife with 5 or more kids.  They were living the good life...big home in a great area and boom, the recession hit them.  Did they whine?  Yes.  Did the kids bitch?  Yes.  Did they automatically go for welfare?  Nope.  They started finding ways to make things work including giving up stuff that they thought they "had to have".  Will they make it?  Who knows but at least they aren't asking me to support them.  The husband/wife continue to find other jobs and it is a struggle.  The kids are helping out with odd jobs...newspaper routes, etc...and it isn't killing them (I know, shocking isn't it?).

quote:

A more correct way to view the argument is that "someone who does not wish to pay taxes to suuport society should lose the benefits of being in society, includingthe protection of all laws.
No...actually it sounds a lot like "to each according to their needs, from each according to their means".  Karl Marx.  Socialism at its' finest.

No one is stating that all taxes can be...or should be...given up.  What people ARE stating is that the amount of those taxes used to pay for the support of able-bodied, able-minded folks should not be an ongoing thing AND that they should be more readily given as a back-up or help to those who are trying to help themselves.

I would have thought that the election results proved that to you, DomKen.

quote:

I assume Treasure will not be volunteering to find out how she would fair under that premise.
Actually, the government promised to promote the general welfare of society and has been given the obligation to provide protection for all of it's citizens, taxpayers or not.  The government never made the promise to provide a living for the citizens of the country.  So why would Treasure...or any of us...volunteer to be held to a premise that does not....nor ever did...exist in a capitalistic, republican society with some democratic principles?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 12/9/2010 7:22:32 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 7:25:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The premise is put forth that an individual who relies on Government support does not have the same rights and protections under the constitution because they are not a self-sustaining entity. A taxpaying citizen should have the right to decide whether he or she wishes to continue to support an individual who relies on Government support until they are capable of supporting their own life. The Government shouldn't force a taxpaying citizen to continue to support a parasitic being.


This is the part that bothers me. Not what Treasure is saying... but the fact that the assumption is made that, because people are on welfare, they dont pay taxes. Foodstamp recipients do not pay taxes, granted. Not everyone on welfare gets foodstamps. The rest of the money, taxes are paid. Utilities, clothing, paper and cleaning supplies, ect. They do pay taxes in some form or fashion.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 7:27:04 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Who do you think relies on government support? Widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. You're bitching about unemployment benefits, which is actually insurance that each and every employed person paid premiums for.

As to the rest maybe you should actually know what the fuck you're talking about before making grand pronouncements. Just as an aside I think you might want to reconsider learning about the realities of a subject from reality TV.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 8:05:59 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Who do you think relies on government support? Widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. You're bitching about unemployment benefits, which is actually insurance that each and every employed person paid premiums for.
Yes, the folks you mentioned receive support.  They are NOT the only ones relying on government support and I addressed that.  I will leave it to treasure to address whether or not she was addressing widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled specifically or if she...like I and others...was referring to the able-bodied, able-minded folks.

Second, I was not addressing those who worked and now, are not.  I was referring to those who have NEVER worked or, if they did, for a short time.  And to address your unemployment insurance statement...surely you jest?  The amount paid by an employee into unemployment insurance gets eaten up long before his benefits run out.  Or do you REALLY think that the money you contribute to this is the only money used to pay for your support if you end up not working?  Hell, I am self-employed and so carry the burden of unemployment insurance on myself all by myself and I know that I do not pay into the system the same amount that my benefits would be.

As to the rest maybe you should actually know what the fuck you're talking about before making grand pronouncements. Just as an aside I think you might want to reconsider learning about the realities of a subject from reality TV.
Ohhhhhh trust me, DomKen...that is not the only source of my information.  As a self-employed professional who has employed up to 4 other people in my office in the past, I am well-aware of the realities of day to day paying into a system of taxes, not only on myself...but to benefit others, including the ones working for me. 

As for knowing what the fuck I am talking about...I don't believe it states anywhere that I have to have credentials to state my opinion and to state what I know.  If you disagree with what I say...shrug.  But your disagreement with what I say or what anyone else says does not make it less valid.  Nor does your disagreement automatically make me...or anyone else...suddenly be the ones who don't know what the fuck we are talking about.  Which is a good thing...because if credentials WERE required, then tis doubtful that anyone would be saying much of anything at all in a thread such as this.  Unless of course, you are a welfare-specialist worker?   Or a professor of economics?  Or a government worker whose job is redistribution of income from those who have it to those who don't?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 8:21:32 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess

Interesting thread.  I suppose I would be the utter hypocrite as I was recently pondering that sterilization should be the punishment for some crimes.  Maybe it is because I am old and see that some sorts of people continue on their same self destructive path their entire lives.  Consequently there are thousands of orphans wandering the streets of NY as orphanages short of funding have closed.  But hey….the banks got bailed out,  along with some very huge other failures. 

You take the crack ho….how did she come to get that ‘parasite’ growing in her?   How about the single welfare momma who continues to reproduce without an ability to sustain the life she is creating?  For that matter ANY woman?  Maybe we should consider the risks and costs before we take our big girl panties off.  To minimize a fetus to parasite is ludicrous.  Also this argument fails in that we should be able to have our fun without having to actually face the consequences.  We even have partial birth abortion available in some states.  To me:  that is utterly nauseating.  Who actually bore the consequences there?  Otherwise:  adopt!  Tough luck if the emotion of the experience is ‘too difficult’.  The emotion of abortion is equally difficult and has a likely ability for causing long term emotional damage.  It is about taking personal responsibility.  Then let’s not forget the men who enable the whole process either.

On the other hand I definitely see adult parasites of the system.  I know numerous people on permanent ‘disability’ receiving S.S..  It is my belief that almost all people have the capacity to be productive members of society at some level.   Likewise I am seeing people on unemployment not getting jobs…..some of whom simply don’t want to…..not all.  Many in my age bracket are not getting jobs because they are overqualified. 

Many of these people would start businesses except that the government has become so deeply entrenched in minutiae policy that it is an arduous task to start a business.  In which case some of it simply comes down to effort.                                                                                           

If I were to redesign the welfare system it would be deeply rooted in how to make each individual of their most value.  It would start with aptitude testing.  That discovery process would lead to giving the individual several choices of mandatory education.  The education would be piped via their televisions into their homes.  In order to collect their monthly check they would need to pass the testing.  After several years you would now have a more educated and hirable individual…..less of a parasite.   

Why are some people dysfunctional and hence parasites?  I believe that some are a result of parents allowed to breed and parent without any requirements.  The most important responsibility an individual can have is being a parent.  You are forming the life and future of that other human being.  I believe education is at the root of the solution.

I have paid tens of thousands of dollars into our public school system.  They are so burdened in bureaucracy that much of our money is simply wasted and not on the actual education of our children.  If you want to become ill research THAT out.  Did you know that we spend more per dollar per student on public education that it costs for private superior education?  Our schools are producing illiterates, after all we wouldn’t want a child to learn failure if they actually do.  The colleges are lamenting the fact that children don’t have the levels of knowledge that they should upon entering.  By design we are dumbing down America to create the slaves the elite require. 

I don’t have time to go back and re-read this thread, but I agree that the large corporations that cause failures should be held accountable.  

Jumps off soap box to rush to a long day of being paid for advice.



The Guiddess makes some interesting points, but says a few oddball things, and then a good dose of the old and trite "I know some people that ... " etc. and then regards that personal exposure as applying to all others in a superficially similar situation. "I know a few free loaders therefore all recipients in the country are free loaders." Original, huh ...

quote:

It is my belief that almost all people have the capacity to be productive members of society at some level.


True enough, but the economic reality is that being productive in some way and being productive enough to get hired by somebody are two different things. If she sees an issue there, the people to talk to are the ones that do the hiring, and after they explain to her that they could not stay in business hiring people like that she could then talk to their competitors and see how far that goes too. She does like to talk.

quote:

If I were to redesign the welfare system it would be deeply rooted in how to make each individual of their most value.  It would start with aptitude testing.  That discovery process would lead to giving the individual several choices of mandatory education.  The education would be piped via their televisions into their homes.  In order to collect their monthly check they would need to pass the testing.  After several years you would now have a more educated and hirable individual…..less of a parasite.

   
As far as requiring eduction or job training, we used to have that ...  "the Job Opportunities and Basic Skills Training program as part of Family Support Act of 1988-welfare recipients were provided, and required to participate in, education, training, and job search activities as a condition of receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC)."

But then, "JOBS was replaced by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (PRWORA) in 1996, shifting the emphasis from job training to job placement."

http://www.childtrends.org/lifecourse/programs/JOBS.htm

Thank you Newt Gingrich.


And the television as teacher for this situation would be, unworkable, shall we say.


Oh well, that post could do with a lot more guidance and educated advice, but I'm not getting paid for it.


 

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/9/2010 8:35:59 AM >

(in reply to theGuideGoddess)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 11:11:35 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Who do you think relies on government support? Widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. You're bitching about unemployment benefits, which is actually insurance that each and every employed person paid premiums for.
Yes, the folks you mentioned receive support.  They are NOT the only ones relying on government support and I addressed that.  I will leave it to treasure to address whether or not she was addressing widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled specifically or if she...like I and others...was referring to the able-bodied, able-minded folks.

No one able bodied and able minded is getting government support. Some may be getting department of Ag money intended to encourage the sale of US farm products (that is what Food Stamps actually is) and some may be getting money for their kids (AFDC) but there is no such thing as government supporting people able to work.

quote:

Second, I was not addressing those who worked and now, are not.  I was referring to those who have NEVER worked

Hmmm maybe I misread.


Ooops. No you just flat out lied
quote:

I DO have a problem supporting able-bodied men or women for a length of time that is unreasonable. If you have been out of work for two or more years and you haven't been able to find ANYTHING which would pay you a wage, then you aren't looking very hard.

That's definitely talking about unemployment.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:07:59 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Warning for the faint of heart, this is close to home for me so I'm going to say it like it is. If that hurts your feelings I recommend you go and find some other place to post nonsense like this


Wow... talk about being defensive off the bat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

The premise is ...


A reasonable, although simplistic statement. Covers the high point. note that it covers the point that this is an individual choice and the fetus is literally parasitical in the biological sense.


And what other sense is there where a fetus isn't parasitic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This of course is the usual nonsense we get from this delightful couple. Part of what taxes do is pay for the things society needs that individuals cannot pay for directly. That includes support of widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. None of which are parasites in the biological sense as the term as used in the first statement.


While the above part that I bolded is a statement of the obvious, is this an admission that you do consider them to be parasites in other senses?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A more correct way to view the argument is that "someone who does not wish to pay taxes to suuport society should lose the benefits of being in society, includingthe protection of all laws.

I assume Treasure will not be volunteering to find out how she would fair under that premise.


I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that there should be any consideration given to the ability to opt out of paying taxes all together.  It seems you've made many assumptions.  I can only guess that you believe (as do some others) that conservatives do not think we should pay taxes, at all.  If that is so, then you are wrong.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:13:07 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

... Personally, I think the reason some people are able to sustain themselves and others are not, is rooted in advantage. I believe the state creates the conditions where two individuals might put in exactly the same effort to self-sustainment with the result that one fails and the other succeeds purely because of the advantage the state gives one party over the other. This being the case, it would be unreasonable to take the action you suggest.

Unless one wants to outlaw 'advantage'. I'd love to see that in the USA.


Can you give me a specific example where these two hypothetical individuals might exert the exact same effort to sustain themselves, but where the State's interference has given one an advantage over the other?

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 5:35:39 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I just dont see the OP's arguement holding enough solid matter to make a case. If the person doesnt like their fellow citizens, to the point of causing suffering, onto those citizens; should we not question that person's loyalty and sanity? Is it 'to much' of a burdern on Americans, that they help their fellow citizens out of a rough spot (one they did or did not create)?


It has nothing to do with like or dislike.  If you are not able to sustain your own life, how is that my fault?  How is it that I'm personally causing you to suffer? 

If I feel that you are foolish in the decisions you've made with regard to your life and sustainability, how is it that my loyalty or sanity suddenly are questioned?

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Its one thing to have a difference of opinion. Its quite another to argue, killing someone's sole means of survival, because the first is a miser.


Understand that no one is arguing that those in need should have no way to seek help.  We aren't talking about everyone ceasing to donate to the needy.  Anyone who feels an obligation to help their fellow man is more that welcome to continue to pay taxes to the Government for welfare programs.  From many of the responses right here in the forums it sounds as if the majority of Americans would voluntarily continue to pay taxes for welfare, and would pay even higher amounts to ensure that everyone has an equal share in life.

Personally, I am a very giving person and feel every bit as obligated to help my fellow man.  I just don't feel that the Government is an efficient or effective vehicle for distributing that charity.  I would rather not have money coerced from me that I could put to better use elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

But the OP's post seems to imply, that if the person is accepting financial help from the goverment, then they should not have a say in that goverment. Would this mean, that college students, who get student loans, should not have a say in their goverment, until their loans are paid of? How about those in the military, whom EVERTHING they have, owned, and used, was given to them, by the goverment? Should either group, not have a say in their goverment? According to the OP's arguement: YES!


You've obviously misread my original post.  I implied nothing of the kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

After all, can any one of us absolutely and completely, define, 'work'? Such to, that it can be applied to every adult member of society, fairly, and without bias? I highly doubt it. Not without creating intensively HUGE goverment. And the creation of this agency, would cost considerably more money, then simply keeping the system 'as is'. Hence, why I dont see this arguement, even in theory or 'on the drawing board', working if put in to practice.


I'm afraid your paragraph here, as a whole, does not make much sense.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 12/9/2010 5:36:01 PM >

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 60
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