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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 11:26:45 PM   
tazzygirl


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a twit decided my mail was the best place for a rebuttal to my definition on parasites. without going into detail of the mail, i will respond.

a fetus is a parasite until it can live independently according to the definitions above. to state a fetus cannot be a parasite is ignorant. a fetus can cause all sorts of damage to the mother. do they always? nope. in fact, many do not. but some do. some can cause only minor discomfort. some can cause death.

Im sure most will agree this is the case.

The major causes of maternal death are bacterial infection, variants of gestational hypertension including pre-eclampsia and HELLP syndrome, obstetrical hemorrhage, ectopic pregnancy, puerperal sepsis (childbed fever), amniotic fluid embolism, uterine rupture and complications of unsafe or unsanitary abortions. Lesser known causes of maternal death include renal failure, cardiac failure, and hyperemesis gravidarum.
........

Pre-eclampsia is diagnosed when a pregnant woman develops high blood pressure (two separate readings taken at least 6 hours apart of 140/90 or more) and 300 mg of protein in a 24-hour urine sample (proteinuria).

Pre-eclampsia may progress to eclampsia, characterized by the appearance of tonic-clonic seizures. This happens only very rarely with proper treatment.

.........

Pre-eclampsia occurs in as many as 10% of pregnancies, usually in the second or third trimester and after the 32nd week.

........

So, as you can plainly see, the fetus can have an adverse effect on the mother. Making the definition of a parasite.

so, to the twit, think before you type. i never called a fetus a parasite. i said it could be considered one, by the definitions posted above.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/9/2010 11:59:34 PM   
Edwynn


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FR

This is not intended at all as response to the well researched and erudite contributions of tazzy here, nor to anyone's estimation of what should be construed as "parasitic" or not, but, ...



Nature has it that propagation of the species is held to be paramount above all, within a given sphere, and the fact that humans could even consider an essential element of the process of propagation of the species as being "parasitic" in any way speaks directly to how far behind the curve we are in our ability to evaluate anything of importance, and how far we insist on distancing ourselves from anything to do with nature or the spirit behind it.

None of that is me being "pro" or "anti" anything, just saying how clueless we are, and how much we confine our thoughts to the cage of words and terminology.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/10/2010 12:58:41 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 6:28:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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Oh i agree Edwynn. But science is full of terminology that society deems "unacceptable"

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 6:32:52 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

If we say, for arguments sake, that the premise is correct and adults should be "aborted" from the system what sort of country will you have? I think you only need to look beyond the southern border to see what would result. We would become Mexico rather quickly. If you don't now have a wall around your house with concreted glass shards on the top of the wall along with barbed wire attached you soon will have.......I think I will keep what we have and try to improve on it.


The idea isn't to abort people from the system, but for people to opt out of being forced to support the system.

Do you seriously believe there is no one who would voluntarily continue to pay taxes to support the various welfare programs of the Government?



Are you saying you can fully fund these needs on a basis of not knowing what the size of the revenue stream you are dealing with is? When Jerry Lewis does his telethon do you actually think they assume they are going to get all the money that is pledged?

But all that doesn't matter. We have the example south of us to look at for comparison. If we want that life we can have it. It is a choice and this is a democracy. If people want to change how we do things is fine. However, the consequences might not be what you wanted. I'd suggest a lil sunday drive say from San Luis Potosi to Mexico City.......then come tell me that is what you want for your country.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 6:38:42 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Do you let the murderer stay out of prison because if he serves his time he won't be able to support his children? 




Nope, all able bodies will labor, long hours of hard work.  They should be helping defray the costs of their incarceration.  In three days is the anniversary of the murder of my dd ......leaving 2 sons and 2 daughters behind.   He should be in prison, but it should not be a comfortable experience, no matter the color of the crime.   I would vote they work 18 hour days six days a week.  Prison should not abdicate an individual (man or woman) of their responsibilities.


I agree that prisoners should work for their own subsistence and that of any responsibilities left at home.  It isn't always easy and there is a fine line that shouldn't be crossed... prisoners shouldn't be considered "slave labor".  However, there have been and are some successful programs that keep prisoners productive and contributing members of society, even though separated from society.

To clarify... I don't consider children parasites, at all.  It's just a term that I've heard people use to describe the status of a fetus when debating abortion.


See this is where the rub always is on this type of discussion. I don't think anyone would disagree with the work or that it is a right of the general public to expect it from inmates. However, to do that work in that type of massive fashion would require huge monetary input from the government to get it to work. You would also have to watch what they made to make sure it didn't hurt the markets that the efforts of their labor was sold into.

As with most ideas coming from the right...the idea is a good one but the devil is always in the details and it is left to the Left to point them out.....

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 7:44:31 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Who do you think relies on government support? Widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled. You're bitching about unemployment benefits, which is actually insurance that each and every employed person paid premiums for.
Yes, the folks you mentioned receive support.  They are NOT the only ones relying on government support and I addressed that.  I will leave it to treasure to address whether or not she was addressing widows, orphans, the elderly and the disabled specifically or if she...like I and others...was referring to the able-bodied, able-minded folks.

No one able bodied and able minded is getting government support. Some may be getting department of Ag money intended to encourage the sale of US farm products (that is what Food Stamps actually is) and some may be getting money for their kids (AFDC) but there is no such thing as government supporting people able to work.
Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken.  I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true.  Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years.  2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house.  As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent. 
\
Now then, you can choose to look at things such as Medicaid and Food Stamps and even AFDC as non-governmental support but I insist that they are.  And my cousin is...and other people that I have had come into my office asking whether or not I took Medicaid are....able-bodied. 

And by the way, DomKen?  Though you may not see it that way...food stamps and Medicaid are not "welfare", there are others besides me who do. 
http://www.fns.usda.gov/ora/menu/Published/snap/FILES/ProgramDesign/finalrep.pdf

quote:

Second, I was not addressing those who worked and now, are not.  I was referring to those who have NEVER worked

Hmmm maybe I misread.


Ooops. No you just flat out lied
quote:

I DO have a problem supporting able-bodied men or women for a length of time that is unreasonable. If you have been out of work for two or more years and you haven't been able to find ANYTHING which would pay you a wage, then you aren't looking very hard.
[That's definitely talking about unemployment.


You are right.  My mistake.  I apologize for the statement that I was not referring to those who have worked.  I apologize for that specific statement in that specific area.  Happy now?

I still state that if you have been out of work for two years or longer and have been unable to find ANY kind of employment...even if it does not pay what you were used to and is in a field that many consider to be menial...then you are not looking very hard.

I'm a health-care professional.  I own two hot rods, a motorcycle, a truck.  I've lived well, though not ostentatiously and, for the last few years, definitely within leaner means as I paid child support and even, for a short time, alimony. 
But...if all the patients were to go away tomorrow and the prospect of moving elsewhere, with the cost of transporting all this equipment AND getting re-licensed in another state overwhelming my ability to do so, then I would go to work where I could...whether it be 7-11 (a job I did while I was in college and, in addition to my practice, for a short time while going through the divorce process so I could stay on my feet financially with all the new expense) or, if holly and her Jim offered it, as a muckraker. 


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 12/10/2010 7:58:03 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 7:54:16 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Do you seriously believe there is no one who would voluntarily continue to pay taxes to support the various welfare programs of the Government?


Are you saying you can fully fund these needs on a basis of not knowing what the size of the revenue stream you are dealing with is?


Your point is understood, and I agree it would be problematic... actually it is already problematic.  Do you think when the Government sets a budget for the upcoming year that they know exactly who will be working throughout the year, how much will be made, and exactly how much tax money will be collected?  Do you think they already know exactly how many will need help, even?

Sure, they have trends, projections and analysis.  And with greater amounts of money you have less of a need to be precise.  Nonetheless, it is still a risk. 

And it isn't just the government... private charities have no idea what level of donations they will be receiving and when level of help will be needed.

Each and everyday people take the same kind of risk.  When you make any purchase, decide to increase your family size, or consider changing careers, you are gambling that your revenue source will be at least equal to or greater than it has been.  It is what underscores the importance of us making informed and careful decisions.  Surprisingly most people manage to make it through despite that risk.

I think the Federal Government should take a leaf out of the books of people who do manage to live within their means.  As it stands, the Federal Government doesn't have a very good record for planning and making those decisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

But all that doesn't matter. We have the example south of us to look at for comparison. If we want that life we can have it. It is a choice and this is a democracy. If people want to change how we do things is fine. However, the consequences might not be what you wanted. I'd suggest a lil sunday drive say from San Luis Potosi to Mexico City.......then come tell me that is what you want for your country.


Is your contention that Mexico is a horrible place to live now and that it should be an example of what we do not want for the US?   I'm not terribly familiar with how Mexico's entitlement program compares to the US, but I'd be very careful to do a lot of research before claiming that a reduction in government aid to the poor will lead the US to look like Mexico and points south.  Are you aware that Mexico has made a huge shift to "government charity" in the past 30 years?  Has it occurred to you that government handouts and entitlement programs might help create the problem?

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 11:16:37 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken.  I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true.  Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years.  2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house.  As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent. 

Name the program that gave your cousin money, specifically for her use, without a finding of disability or her being a widow or some other eligible group.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 11:48:05 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken.  I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true.  Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years.  2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house.  As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent. 

Name the program that gave your cousin money, specifically for her use, without a finding of disability or her being a widow or some other eligible group.



I'm guessing TANF.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 11:50:22 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken. I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true. Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years. 2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house. As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent.


AFDC was once only applied to women with minor children, and had federally mandated guildlines. If your cousin had a minor child in the home, which you stated she still had, then she was still eligible for AFDC if she was not working.

TANF changed many things. You may want to look into that. TANF and Medicaid are no longer linked together.

BACKGROUN :
The Federal Government's benefit programs for individuals fall
into two general categories:
insurance-based programs in which the individual recei ves
benefits after financially contributing to the programs or
serving in the military; and
needs-based programs in which the individual must
demonstrate financial need. The individual neither
contributes to the program financially nor renders a
service in return for benefits received. Eligibility is
based on income and other factors such as assets.
In the second category, the following are the six largest
(measured by cash outlay) of the Federal needs-based benefit
programs:
Medicaid , which purchases medical care for persons unable to afford the cost of such care;
Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), which
provides a monthly cash allowance to children and their
caretakers;
Food Stamp, which provides coupons to households for
purchasing food;
Supplemental Security Income (SSI), which provides cash
assistance to individuals who are aged, blind, or disabled;
Section 8 Low-Income Housing Assistance, which subsidizes
rent for families or individuals who are aged or disabled;
and
Pell Grant, which provides cash assistance to students for
postsecondary education.

These six programs are examined in this study. They areadministered by six different Federal agencies: the Departmentsof Housing and Urban Development (HUD), Education, Agricultureand three different operating divisions of the Department of
Heal th and Human Services (HHS). Regulations are developed and
enforced by six separate entities.
At the local level, the six programs are administered by four
agencies. Pulic housing authorities manage the Section 8 program; postsecondary institutions administer Pell Grants; theSocial Security Administration (SSA) operates the SSI program;and local welfare agencies (under State supervision or
administration) determine eligibility for the Food Stamp, AFDC,.
and Medicaiq programs

http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oai-04-88-01280.pdf

Categorical Eligibility

Medicaid eligibility is limited to individuals who fall into specified categories. The federal Medicaid statute identifies over 25 different eligibility categories for which federal matching funds are available. Figure 2 shows the major "pathways" to Medicaid eligibility for children and for non-disabled adults under 65. Several of these pathways overlap one another, with the result that a child or an adult may qualify for Medicaid coverage under more than one eligibility category. For example, a child age 5 is potentially categorically eligible as (1) a "poverty-related" child; (2) a dependent child in a family meeting July 16, 1996 state welfare eligibility standards; or (3) a child in a welfare-to-work family. If this child has a disabling condition, the child may also qualify for Medicaid as a child receiving Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits. The number of categories and the multiple pathways by which one may qualify for coverage add to the complexity of Medicaid eligibility policy.

There are five broad coverage categories: children; pregnant women; adults in families with dependent children; disabled individuals; and the elderly. This paper focuses on three of these five broad coverage categories: children, pregnant women, and adults in families with dependent children.


http://www.kff.org/medicaid/2106-eligibility2.cfm

These are the cetategories used to determine AFDC eligibility, when it was still the former program. Since you stated your cousin was on AFDC, it remains she was on the former program, not on TANF. As a result, she had her benefits based upon either her medical condition or on the presence of the children.

quote:

As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent.


Even her rent checks, which was section 8 housing, was based upon the presence of either the child or her medical condition. To say otherwise is wrong. The guidelines did not allow for an individual to collect any form of help without one of the 5 categories (bolded above) being in play.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 12:05:49 PM   
TreasureKY


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FR:

Some interesting links...

Track government spending

You can specify spending by several different criteria to include departments and specific locations. 

By the way, who the heck is the Federated States of Micronesia and why have we spent $266 million on them this year? 

A list of benefits available from the government and links

If you are in need of help, here is an online tool to help you locate programs where you might find it.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 12:36:45 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken.  I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true.  Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years.  2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house.  As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent. 

Name the program that gave your cousin money, specifically for her use, without a finding of disability or her being a widow or some other eligible group.

It has already been named for me.  And BTW, DomKen...though you keep harping on the one point that these people are not receiving welfare...unless it is due to the children...you still have failed to address the point that these people, through their children, are receiving governmental support.  And they are able-bodied and able-minded, as are their children.  They are doing so, in many cases, without working.  Surely you don't think that a check given for aid to dependent children to cover the rent is covering only the cost of the child's rent and not the parent's rent also?  Surely you do not think that the parent is not receiving food stamps and that they are only going to feed the child?  Surely you do not think that the Medicaid is only covering the child and not the parent of the child?  That comes from the government...and the government's money is MY money.  Mine and every other tax-paying citizen.  Their receiving money from the government is a form of coercive (through taxation) social largesse...welfare.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 1:55:31 PM   
DomKen


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Anyone who advocates letting kids go hungry or without a roof, CD, needs to try going hungry or without a roof for a few days.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 2:00:34 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Now I know that you are the one either lying or mistaken.  I'd like to go the charitable route and say mistaken but I don't believe that to be true.  Anecdotally, my cousin was on welfare for 5 years.  2 of her 3 children (by 3 different fathers, who she DID receive AFDC for) were out of the house.  As long as she looked for work, she received not only Medicaid and AFDC and Food Stamps but a subsistence check that had nothing to do with her kid or her medical expenses but rather to help with rent. 

Name the program that gave your cousin money, specifically for her use, without a finding of disability or her being a widow or some other eligible group.

It has already been named for me.  And BTW, DomKen...though you keep harping on the one point that these people are not receiving welfare...unless it is due to the children...you still have failed to address the point that these people, through their children, are receiving governmental support.  And they are able-bodied and able-minded, as are their children.  They are doing so, in many cases, without working.  Surely you don't think that a check given for aid to dependent children to cover the rent is covering only the cost of the child's rent and not the parent's rent also?  Surely you do not think that the parent is not receiving food stamps and that they are only going to feed the child?  Surely you do not think that the Medicaid is only covering the child and not the parent of the child?  That comes from the government...and the government's money is MY money.  Mine and every other tax-paying citizen.  Their receiving money from the government is a form of coercive (through taxation) social largesse...welfare.


So you'd be happy to do without roads, a fire service, binmen, the bluebottles, a standing army and all of the rest of that evil lefty nonsense that taxation pays for as well, then?
Just what percentage of the federal bugdget goes into evil leftism like welfare? Got a figure? It might even be as much as a whole cent in every dollar of tax you pay.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 2:14:02 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Just what percentage of the federal bugdget goes into evil leftism like welfare? Got a figure? It might even be as much as a whole cent in every dollar of tax you pay.

Unless you include Medicare and SS it is far less than $0.01 on the dollar.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 2:29:33 PM   
NorthernGent


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Moral obligation toward an unborn child?....possibly...in truth I'm struggling to come up with a good argument to the contrary......and you could quite easily extend the same sentiment toward animals.....we see a horse dying and we can empathise...so does that mean we have a moral obligation...speciesism...

But...is there a breakdown in moral fibre where the life of an unborn child is more important than the lives of hundreds of thousands of killed and displaced Iraqis? I'm all for a fair discussion...but let's be honest from the off.......

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 4:02:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Just what percentage of the federal bugdget goes into evil leftism like welfare? Got a figure? It might even be as much as a whole cent in every dollar of tax you pay.

Unless you include Medicare and SS it is far less than $0.01 on the dollar.


That depends on your definition of "evil leftism like welfare", and the denominator. As a percentage of discretionary spending it is far higher no matter what your defintion is.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 4:53:21 PM   
DomKen


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discretionary budget for 2010 $1.39 trillion. TANF 17 billion. WIC, CNP, SNAP 95 billion. so even if you count only the discretionary budget it is less that 10 cents on the dollar. That compares to more than 50 cents of every dollar spent on defence.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 7:37:29 PM   
TreasureKY


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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

discretionary budget for 2010 $1.39 trillion. TANF 17 billion. WIC, CNP, SNAP 95 billion. so even if you count only the discretionary budget it is less that 10 cents on the dollar. That compares to more than 50 cents of every dollar spent on defence.


According to the US Government we've spent $351,091,100,000 for the Department of Defense in 2010... whereas we've spent $630,800,000,000 for the Department of Health and Human Services.

I may be wrong, but according to my math $351 Billion is almost half of $630 Billion.

And no... I didn't get those figures flipped around.  We've spent nearly twice as much on our welfare infrastructure than on defense.

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RE: Adult Abortion... The Right to Choose - 12/10/2010 7:43:19 PM   
KatyLied


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It would probably be best to have a breakdown of exactly how that money in HHS is being spent, I doubt all of it is on TANF

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