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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 3:49:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories, with the clear understanding that Israel does not surrender its rights as a sovereign nation. Then in a week or so when the first mortar or rocket is fired into Israel, the Israelis could legally roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem.


Been there done that. If they call then "occupied territories" now, despite their clear standing under international law as anything but, then repeating history isnt going to change that.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 3:55:25 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories"

I believe that's been presented to the "chosen" more than once. IIRC they refused.

"roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem"

They won't because that would alienate too many neighbors. It's much better to control their governments.

We took the USA from someone else. They took Israel from someone else. We have no right really to take sides here. Just let them settle it.

T

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 7:51:44 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

It looks like an interesting option for the Palestinians as things stand. It might just turn out to be the magic circuit breaker. It would remove control of the process from Israel and that's got to be a positive development given ongoing Israeli intransigence.

Within 5 years, all of Asia Africa and Sth America will have recognised Palestine, and prolly most of Western Europe too. Russia China India (possibly France and UK too) on the UN Security Council and practically the entire world apart from a few Western countries will be lined up to force Israel to give ground for peace.

The increasing diplomatic isolation ought to have two very positive effects:
* It would force the Israeli public and Govt. to choose decisively whether they want peace or exclusion from the international community; and
* It might force the USA and the US taxpayer to question what it is getting out of its support for Israel (Is there a positive apart from having a real life testing ground for the latest military hardware?). The possibility of US life support being turned off might induce a much-needed reality check in Israel.

It really needs to be spelt out to the Israeli Govt that its ongoing theft of the West Bank will carry an increasing cost in the international arena. International pressure had a decisive effect in South Africa - there's no reason why it can't happen again.

The Palestinians should go right ahead and do it. No need to get Israeli agreement is there? After all the Israelis never consulted the locals when they established Israel did they?

No State can be allowed to be a law unto itself.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/8/2010 7:58:08 PM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 8:02:04 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

It surely must be becoming increasingly obvious, even to the most blind followers of Israel, that the Jewish state is not even slightly interested in peace.


Well, ever since they were attacked with overwhelming force in 1967, they've been a little leery of Arab intentions.  Especially when Iran and others proclaim publicly that Israel has no right to exist.  Makes them a bit nervous.


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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 8:11:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It really needs to be spelt out to the Israeli Govt that its ongoing theft of the West Bank will carry an increasing cost in the international arena.


Another one fucking clueless about international law.

quote:



No State can be allowed to be a law unto itself.


Bullshit. Every State has every right to be a law unto itself and to enter into treaties that are in its best interest. Dont like it? Attack em and face the consequences.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/8/2010 8:12:37 PM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/8/2010 10:01:32 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"face the consequences"

So it's settled then, might makes right. And pun intended.

T

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 12:11:24 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

Pyro, I was gonna' answer, and then I decided your avatar was just too frightening to look at.

I understand what you are saying about the Palestinians. However, I do not get out and march for the rights of people (any people--especially those who are fundamentalists in their religious beliefs) who are disdainful of my culture.

that's fine, but I don't think we should be supplying arms or support to the country that's taking military actions to civilian areas either

You mean the US is now supporting Hezbollah ? Kinkroids you fail to see the big picture. When is it that the Arabs surrounding Israel and more and the Palestinians haven't been sending suicide bombers, kidnapping people, drive by shooting people and our old favorite...firing rockets some say 10,000 since they first arrived to Nazi-like, to take over bordering Lebanon ?

Truth is Israel is at war and has been at war since 1948 and also, the American public would endorse the same actions if it were say Mexico or Canada doing the same thing.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 2:07:09 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


Posts: 1693
Joined: 2/25/2010
Status: offline 		I suppose that if I were an Israeli, who supported all of the actions of Israel (or Neocon), I might be a little defensive.    However, if you (generic you) consider that Palestinians are equal humans, and just as righteous about their argument, I might appeal to everyone's survival instinct, and decide that there is no other solution to this (even if the US is backing you), other than the two states' solution.

Israel may very be well armed, and backed by these United States.   However, the folks at a disadvantage, and with nothing to lose, will fight you to the death.    Rich, but in constant turmoil/pain, sounds like a horrible way to live.   Alas, I cannot know either side outside humanity.     M

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 2:41:44 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Mods, how many anti-Semitic threads are we supposed to tolerate?





The answer to your question is zero.

If you are suggesting that this thread is anti-Semitic, solely because of its failure to parrot the official Israeli line, then your suggestion has more to do with censorship than any anti-racist position I am familiar with.


Gee, and I though he suggested it was anti-semitic because the OP is so obvious in his hatred of anything jewish. But then again, you might have trouble seeing that.

As to Brazil and Argentina speaking their mind. None of their fucking business in my opinion.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 1:06:19 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories, with the clear understanding that Israel does not surrender its rights as a sovereign nation. Then in a week or so when the first mortar or rocket is fired into Israel, the Israelis could legally roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem.


The Genocide option? Nice.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 1:16:25 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Gee, and I though he suggested it was anti-semitic because the OP is so obvious in his hatred of anything jewish. But then again, you might have trouble seeing that.



If all the Jews had done was Israel you'd have a point, because I do hate Israel and all the racist shit it stands for. But I think both you and I know that the Jews are rather more than a racist state built on someone else's land. And we both know you are trolling.

quote:

As to Brazil and Argentina speaking their mind. None of their fucking business in my opinion.


In your opinion.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 1:18:39 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories, with the clear understanding that Israel does not surrender its rights as a sovereign nation. Then in a week or so when the first mortar or rocket is fired into Israel, the Israelis could legally roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem.


The Genocide option? Nice.

So you acknowledge that Israel will be attacked even if they do give the arabs a palestinian state. Now you just need to actually consider what you'd want your nation to do to neighbors who refuse to honor any treaty and teach their children horrors about you like the blood libel.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 1:23:10 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

It surely must be becoming increasingly obvious, even to the most blind followers of Israel, that the Jewish state is not even slightly interested in peace.


Well, ever since they were attacked with overwhelming force in 1967, they've been a little leery of Arab intentions.  Especially when Iran and others proclaim publicly that Israel has no right to exist.  Makes them a bit nervous.



Doesn't really answer the question though, does it? Israel professes to be interested in peace and in negotiating a settlement with the Palestinians. All it has to do to make this happen is extend the illegal settlement freeze. Obama offered $3bn worth of Arab-busting weaponry as a bribe. That's a damn good bribe, in my opinion. Did Israel snap it up and freeze on the illegal settlement building for a while longer? Well, we all know they did not.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 1:27:18 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories, with the clear understanding that Israel does not surrender its rights as a sovereign nation. Then in a week or so when the first mortar or rocket is fired into Israel, the Israelis could legally roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem.


The Genocide option? Nice.

So you acknowledge that Israel will be attacked even if they do give the arabs a palestinian state. Now you just need to actually consider what you'd want your nation to do to neighbors who refuse to honor any treaty and teach their children horrors about you like the blood libel.


No. You seem to be suggesting the Genocide of a whole people on account of a hypothetical action by a subset of that group. At the very least, you are suggesting ethnic cleansing. I suspect you really want to retract your statement. You can do that, you know...

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 2:17:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"face the consequences"

So it's settled then, might makes right. And pun intended.

T


Might makes power and control. Whether that power and control is in the right hands is eye of the beholder. In the case of Israel vs their oppressors there is no question that it is in the right hands.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 2:20:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW

Palestine....and just as righteous about their argument,


Not even close.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 5:32:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Maybe I should ask a question, having pitched my tent and all.

Does anyone think it is at all possible that if enough nations get behind this, it might be possible for the Palestinians to finally get their state whether Israel likes it or not? It seems to me that this is the only way it is going to happen.

Israel should unilaterally give the palestinian arabs a state on the so called occupied territories, with the clear understanding that Israel does not surrender its rights as a sovereign nation. Then in a week or so when the first mortar or rocket is fired into Israel, the Israelis could legally roll in and empty the territories and be done with all the whining by suckers who think Israel is the problem.


The Genocide option? Nice.

So you acknowledge that Israel will be attacked even if they do give the arabs a palestinian state. Now you just need to actually consider what you'd want your nation to do to neighbors who refuse to honor any treaty and teach their children horrors about you like the blood libel.


No. You seem to be suggesting the Genocide of a whole people on account of a hypothetical action by a subset of that group. At the very least, you are suggesting ethnic cleansing. I suspect you really want to retract your statement. You can do that, you know...

I'm suggesting neither. I am suggesting that a people that has adamantly refused to negotiate in good faith or to seek a real peace are not going to suddenly be peaceful even if they get a reasonable state handed to them. I'm still waiting for the palestinian arabs to honor even one part of the various agreements made with Israel since the early 90's.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/9/2010 11:11:44 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


I'm suggesting neither. I am suggesting that a people that has adamantly refused to negotiate in good faith or to seek a real peace are not going to suddenly be peaceful even if they get a reasonable state handed to them. I'm still waiting for the palestinian arabs to honor even one part of the various agreements made with Israel since the early 90's.



I suppose that I oughtn't be surprised that even going through the motions, that even pretending to interested in peace would be a bit too much to ask. As Israel has just scuttled the last round of the 'peace process', preferring to complete to its ongoing theft of the West Bank, it would be asking a bit much for anyone to believe that Israel is interested in peace.

That seems to leave two options - (a) the status quo, more of the same or (b) an externally imposed peace. The likely basis for any external resolution would be UN Resolution 242 ie Israeli withdrawal to pre-1967 borders in return for recognition and security. Which do you favour?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/9/2010 11:14:39 PM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/10/2010 2:02:11 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


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quote:


Might makes power and control. Whether that power and control is in the right hands is eye of the beholder. In the case of Israel vs their oppressors there is no question that it is in the right hands. ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Good thing you are balanced in your view, and Lord knows you're unbiased.    Good luck with all that might, and restlessness of the soul!   That is priceless.    M

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/10/2010 11:21:42 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


I'm suggesting neither. I am suggesting that a people that has adamantly refused to negotiate in good faith or to seek a real peace are not going to suddenly be peaceful even if they get a reasonable state handed to them. I'm still waiting for the palestinian arabs to honor even one part of the various agreements made with Israel since the early 90's.



I suppose that I oughtn't be surprised that even going through the motions, that even pretending to interested in peace would be a bit too much to ask. As Israel has just scuttled the last round of the 'peace process', preferring to complete to its ongoing theft of the West Bank, it would be asking a bit much for anyone to believe that Israel is interested in peace.

That seems to leave two options - (a) the status quo, more of the same or (b) an externally imposed peace. The likely basis for any external resolution would be UN Resolution 242 ie Israeli withdrawal to pre-1967 borders in return for recognition and security. Which do you favour?

What a load of bull. The Israelis honored the Oslo accords for well over a year after the PLO refused to do the very first thing they had agreed to do. Israel handed over town after town and eventually evacuated the entire Gaza Strip and still you can not point to a single point of any of the agreements the palestinian side has lived up to. Arafat even had the gall to go on TV and remind his supporters of a passage from the Qu'ran where Mohammed lied to the citizens of Mecca before he conquered the city to make clear he had no intention of following through with anything.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 40
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